Al Melling Plans to keep TVR British
Discussion
s5tvr said:
johnbear said:
Surely there a film in this. How I lost £40 million in a blackpool.
Do you think PW's stopped laughing yet.. He must hve thought all his christmases had come at once when business boy walked into his office with a well stuffed cheque book...
Edited by Graham on Sunday 4th February 10:47
Graham said:
s5tvr said:
johnbear said:
Surely there a film in this. How I lost £40 million in a blackpool.
Do you think PW's stopped laughing yet.. He must hve thought all his christmases had come at once when business boy walked into his office with a well stuffed cheque book...
Edited by Graham on Sunday 4th February 10:47
Haha! I bet he did and good on him I say.
He's my favourite person I've never met, he brought us some amazing cars that we're a big up yours to the nanny state and all things PC.
Not wanting to dampen the atmosphere too much BUT:
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend.
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend.
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Just looked at the for sale ad and noted a couple of things
Turnover quoted to 2005, strange
Also the trademarks etc seem to not cover China, Japan, India, the Far East etc
One could suggest that TVR could be made and sold in those countries where the name is less tainted by all of this, still under the old management??
Just a thought
Turnover quoted to 2005, strange
Also the trademarks etc seem to not cover China, Japan, India, the Far East etc
One could suggest that TVR could be made and sold in those countries where the name is less tainted by all of this, still under the old management??
Just a thought
Max Attacker said:
Not wanting to dampen the atmosphere too much BUT:
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend.
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend.
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Al Melling. AKA The Rochdale Cowboy.
maxx-waxx said:
Pasco said:
Am i the only person with Troll Alarms ringing on this Topic guys ?
Ive believe nothing reported on here anymore as pure speculation, i'll wait for any official announcement before gettin excited
Agree think we're being sold a dummy here - racingpartners has a blank profile & has had nothing else to say...
tail slide said:
maxx-waxx said:
Pasco said:
Am i the only person with Troll Alarms ringing on this Topic guys ?
Ive believe nothing reported on here anymore as pure speculation, i'll wait for any official announcement before gettin excited
Agree think we're being sold a dummy here - racingpartners has a blank profile & has had nothing else to say...At last some one else who does some home work
Max Attacker said:
Not wanting to dampen the atmosphere too much BUT:
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Ohhh thats well under the belt.....care to reveal yourself? Bet not...!
Edited by yzf1070 on Sunday 4th February 15:11
Pasco said:
tail slide said:
maxx-waxx said:
Pasco said:
Am i the only person with Troll Alarms ringing on this Topic guys ?
Ive believe nothing reported on here anymore as pure speculation, i'll wait for any official announcement before gettin excited
Agree think we're being sold a dummy here - racingpartners has a blank profile & has had nothing else to say...At last some one else who does some home work
check this then
www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=13&t=352442
yzf1070 said:
Max Attacker said:
Not wanting to dampen the atmosphere too much BUT:
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Melling is pretty unlikely to be the saviour of TVR.
In terms of being able to turn out regular reliable product on a wek by wek production basis with minimal warranty issues etc then he has very little evidence to back his claims, unless of course you have actually seen the other engines he has been involved with that are not subjevt to secerecy and confidentiality.
The TVR engines, V8 and S6 are the only ones I know of in the public domain and whilst they both have their good point, esp the V8, then they are not exactly the saviours of anyone.
Indeed it should be argued that the S6 was the exact opposite, ultimately the downfall of TVR.
If you want references then try asking Norton or Lola or Frank Dernie at what was Ligier, or some ex McLaren chaps etc See what they recommend
As for BA not knowing exactly what assets they did and did not own, well that says enough in itself.
Ohhh thats well under the belt.....care to reveal yourself? Bet not...!
Edited by yzf1070 on Sunday 4th February 15:11
Is it under the belt - prey tell more if you know it to be otherwise Graham??
It's 'below the belt' because i think it's unfair to lay the Speed6 problem at Al Mellings feet!
He helped design the AJP6. The Speed6 was the result of TVR taking the AJP6 and changing it's design/using cheaper and more inferior components, to cut costs!
For all we know the AJP6 may have been a fantastic engine if it had been left as it was, but i guess we'll never know. Or will we?
He helped design the AJP6. The Speed6 was the result of TVR taking the AJP6 and changing it's design/using cheaper and more inferior components, to cut costs!
For all we know the AJP6 may have been a fantastic engine if it had been left as it was, but i guess we'll never know. Or will we?
holmsie said:
It's 'below the belt' because i think it's unfair to lay the Speed6 problem at Al Mellings feet!
He helped design the AJP6. The Speed6 was the result of TVR taking the AJP6 and changing it's design/using cheaper and more inferior components, to cut costs!
For all we know the AJP6 may have been a fantastic engine if it had been left as it was, but i guess we'll never know. Or will we?
He helped design the AJP6. The Speed6 was the result of TVR taking the AJP6 and changing it's design/using cheaper and more inferior components, to cut costs!
For all we know the AJP6 may have been a fantastic engine if it had been left as it was, but i guess we'll never know. Or will we?
I have a copy of a letter from TVR somewhere saying that the Melling designed SP6 lasted less than half an hour.
unrepentant said:
holmsie said:
It's 'below the belt' because i think it's unfair to lay the Speed6 problem at Al Mellings feet!
He helped design the AJP6. The Speed6 was the result of TVR taking the AJP6 and changing it's design/using cheaper and more inferior components, to cut costs!
For all we know the AJP6 may have been a fantastic engine if it had been left as it was, but i guess we'll never know. Or will we?
He helped design the AJP6. The Speed6 was the result of TVR taking the AJP6 and changing it's design/using cheaper and more inferior components, to cut costs!
For all we know the AJP6 may have been a fantastic engine if it had been left as it was, but i guess we'll never know. Or will we?
I have a copy of a letter from TVR somewhere saying that the Melling designed SP6 lasted less than half an hour.
DJC who seems to have a certain 'inside knowledge' also says that there is more to this than meets the eye
My point is quite valid: If you are looking ahead then the past often gives some indications.
As far as I am aware the only engines in the public domain that have been designed by AM/MCD etc are the TVR ones. You would not want to base a business plan solely on that history given the known costs and warranty issues.
I am quite prepared to believe in the aftermarket solution he has been involved with to fix the S6 engine ONLY when it is shown to be fundamentally more long lived than the TVR version. I would also need to be convinced that it is profitable.
The TVR version to me seemed to have an incredibly variable life span. If you look around then my absolute best bet is that the longest lived ones hav ebeen treated a little like race engines: warmed up very carefully, consideratly extended in their performance and serviced very frequently. their owners are probably pretty respectful of how they treat their cars. The race engines originally were the same, the basic troubles were only really shown up in customer hands. Foe example I know that "tailslide" on here (congratulations on your speed championship achievements)has had a good run from his T350 and that it will have been used in anger quite often.
But if you want a refernece for a business plan with Melling then who do you go to? The idea of which is not below the belt and as I said before there are a few public domain details and I am pretty sure of what those would/have said before.
Best of luck with his own car but as a consortium partner/patriarch to lead a TVR buyout then that is best left to someone else who HAS to be able to see that there is no profitability in concentrating SOLELY on the UK market.
the rights to Sagaris, Tuscan etc are NO use across the EEC or US as the cars are not currently legal there and to make them so would be nigh on impossible, and that is without even considering the S6 engine. Do not forget the impending change to the UK Low Volume Type Approval system under which all TVR models are currently sold. Soon this will not be 500 types per year but 75.
If 500 is not profitable then how will 75 be?
Looking at the Hellcat then that does not appear to have had any great legislative consideration for mainland EEC.
As others have pointed out TVR old style is unlikley to succeed in the future.
As I have said before TVR failed to grow up to suit modern times, modern buyers and modern legislation. That is why a TVR looks like a TVR and a Corvette looks like a Corvette: different legislative regimes to be designed under.
If I were to suggest one thing it would be to consider a completely different approach from old and that of course would need new people. A new vehicle designed to suit EC rules but with some of the arrogance of the old TVR, but not the warranty costs. That requires some serious/insane capital spend. If you look at the KTM toy then I think they said 16 million for tooling etc to make 4000 cars.
If you look at Caterham, Spyker, Morgan etc then where they differ is in their world approval style approach. The cars are still daring, they are not bland but they are able to NOT be reliant on UK fashion and company car tax rules. TVR chose, going back to PRW times, to restreict themselves to UK rules and customers and therefore be shrunk accordingly.
All those others also used engines from mass ranges but tweaked for bespokeness and for EC approvals. It is alsmost financially impossible to do otherwise. Sure it can be done burt at what cost.
In all business costs are everyting, and I am sure that anyone looking to buy TVR will need to understaqnd that. People with race/prototype backgrounds inevitably do not fully underestand the costs associated with proper production engineering of reliability and consistent quality.
As DJC says all the time on here: the design is quite possibly the easy bit, its is making the bloody things, at a profit that is the hard bit. For that you need develpoment and you need to aim at the rules to avoid last minute changes.
So I don't think it below the belt at all to suggest that a race background, or a prototytpe design background is not the best reference.
As far as I am aware the only engines in the public domain that have been designed by AM/MCD etc are the TVR ones. You would not want to base a business plan solely on that history given the known costs and warranty issues.
I am quite prepared to believe in the aftermarket solution he has been involved with to fix the S6 engine ONLY when it is shown to be fundamentally more long lived than the TVR version. I would also need to be convinced that it is profitable.
The TVR version to me seemed to have an incredibly variable life span. If you look around then my absolute best bet is that the longest lived ones hav ebeen treated a little like race engines: warmed up very carefully, consideratly extended in their performance and serviced very frequently. their owners are probably pretty respectful of how they treat their cars. The race engines originally were the same, the basic troubles were only really shown up in customer hands. Foe example I know that "tailslide" on here (congratulations on your speed championship achievements)has had a good run from his T350 and that it will have been used in anger quite often.
But if you want a refernece for a business plan with Melling then who do you go to? The idea of which is not below the belt and as I said before there are a few public domain details and I am pretty sure of what those would/have said before.
Best of luck with his own car but as a consortium partner/patriarch to lead a TVR buyout then that is best left to someone else who HAS to be able to see that there is no profitability in concentrating SOLELY on the UK market.
the rights to Sagaris, Tuscan etc are NO use across the EEC or US as the cars are not currently legal there and to make them so would be nigh on impossible, and that is without even considering the S6 engine. Do not forget the impending change to the UK Low Volume Type Approval system under which all TVR models are currently sold. Soon this will not be 500 types per year but 75.
If 500 is not profitable then how will 75 be?
Looking at the Hellcat then that does not appear to have had any great legislative consideration for mainland EEC.
As others have pointed out TVR old style is unlikley to succeed in the future.
As I have said before TVR failed to grow up to suit modern times, modern buyers and modern legislation. That is why a TVR looks like a TVR and a Corvette looks like a Corvette: different legislative regimes to be designed under.
If I were to suggest one thing it would be to consider a completely different approach from old and that of course would need new people. A new vehicle designed to suit EC rules but with some of the arrogance of the old TVR, but not the warranty costs. That requires some serious/insane capital spend. If you look at the KTM toy then I think they said 16 million for tooling etc to make 4000 cars.
If you look at Caterham, Spyker, Morgan etc then where they differ is in their world approval style approach. The cars are still daring, they are not bland but they are able to NOT be reliant on UK fashion and company car tax rules. TVR chose, going back to PRW times, to restreict themselves to UK rules and customers and therefore be shrunk accordingly.
All those others also used engines from mass ranges but tweaked for bespokeness and for EC approvals. It is alsmost financially impossible to do otherwise. Sure it can be done burt at what cost.
In all business costs are everyting, and I am sure that anyone looking to buy TVR will need to understaqnd that. People with race/prototype backgrounds inevitably do not fully underestand the costs associated with proper production engineering of reliability and consistent quality.
As DJC says all the time on here: the design is quite possibly the easy bit, its is making the bloody things, at a profit that is the hard bit. For that you need develpoment and you need to aim at the rules to avoid last minute changes.
So I don't think it below the belt at all to suggest that a race background, or a prototytpe design background is not the best reference.
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