Has anyone had a broken valve spring??
Discussion
I have had an ongoing problem with my Chim 450 which has resulted in loads of bits in the ignition circuit being replaced, the airflow meter replaced and still it persists.
On tickover the engines sounds fine as soon as you load the engine it starts to misfire and continues up to about 2.5 to 3 thousand revs and then runs smoothly up to about 4 to 4.5 thousand at which point it starts to misfire again.
Having replaced most of the ignition circuit I am begining to wonder if I have a broken primary valve spring as I seem to recall that the engine has dual springs. Has anyone had a broken valve spring and what were the symptoms....please help as I'm loosing heart with the car....eight months old and an endless series of problems.
On tickover the engines sounds fine as soon as you load the engine it starts to misfire and continues up to about 2.5 to 3 thousand revs and then runs smoothly up to about 4 to 4.5 thousand at which point it starts to misfire again.
Having replaced most of the ignition circuit I am begining to wonder if I have a broken primary valve spring as I seem to recall that the engine has dual springs. Has anyone had a broken valve spring and what were the symptoms....please help as I'm loosing heart with the car....eight months old and an endless series of problems.
I HAVE NOT EXPERIENCED A BROKEN SECONDARY SPRING CAUSING THIS PROBLEM.PRESUMING THE IGNITION CIRCUIT IS ALL OK I WOULD CHECK THE VALVE LIFT IE HOW FAR THE ROCKER ARM PUSHES THE VALVE/SRING DOWN. I HAVE HAD BADLY WORN CAMSHAFTS CAUSE MISFIRES/POOR RUNNING UNDER LOAD/HARD ACCELERATION.
APM, Thank you for the info. The car is only eight months old and has 8k on the clock. It has been back and forth to the dealers to try and sort this out and they have replaced most of the ignition curcuit including coil, HT lead to cyl 7, cyl 7 plug, etc.
Given the symptoms I am experiencing and my limited knowledge of these things I had started to think about the effect of the primary spring breaking on one of the cyl 7 valves so that it was only closing on the secondary spring and whether these would give similar symptoms to a weak spring and loss of compression.
Given the symptoms I am experiencing and my limited knowledge of these things I had started to think about the effect of the primary spring breaking on one of the cyl 7 valves so that it was only closing on the secondary spring and whether these would give similar symptoms to a weak spring and loss of compression.
The injectors on Rover V8's are disc type, rather than the better and more common pin type.
Individual injectors can occasionally play up, giving very similar symptoms to a misfire, and may even (annoyingly) be intermittant.
Flows can vary a lot on these injectors (easily by 20%) and yet very often the eight individual items used on the engine may not be matched. For more information on this see Mark Adams' contact details in the TVRCC Sprint mag.
Individual injectors can occasionally play up, giving very similar symptoms to a misfire, and may even (annoyingly) be intermittant.
Flows can vary a lot on these injectors (easily by 20%) and yet very often the eight individual items used on the engine may not be matched. For more information on this see Mark Adams' contact details in the TVRCC Sprint mag.
The problem started about 1k miles back and has grown steadily worse whilst going back and forth to various dealers as I move around the country. Although I try and keep it in the rev range where the misfire seems to clear I suspect the cat won't be far from knackered by now!! It is my day to day transport so I have little choice but to use it in between trips to the dealers!!
It is going back to the dealers for another holiday next week but I am trying to find some ideas/thoughts myself as I want to try and avoid another "we think it is something to do with the ignition and we have replaced x,y,z, take it away and see if it has solved the problem".
The airflow meter has been replaced and it is giving no error codes from the ECU.
The injector suggestion is a good one and I will keep that one in mind.....many thanks.
It is going back to the dealers for another holiday next week but I am trying to find some ideas/thoughts myself as I want to try and avoid another "we think it is something to do with the ignition and we have replaced x,y,z, take it away and see if it has solved the problem".
The airflow meter has been replaced and it is giving no error codes from the ECU.
The injector suggestion is a good one and I will keep that one in mind.....many thanks.
the fault code facilty only monitors sensors ie throttle switch,lamda sensor etc if it is not showing codes check it can read them. have had bad connections on ecu multi-plug, disconnect ecu and reconnect, turn ignition on should read 02 ing off wait 30secs ign on should be clear. plug leads, coil, cap, distributor will not show on ecu. also check earth leads on back of l/h cylinder head and on transmission tunnel for good contact.where in country are you may be able to direct you to good dealer/specialist
quote:
I have had an ongoing problem with my Chim 450 which has resulted in loads of bits in the ignition circuit being replaced, the airflow meter replaced and still it persists. .
I had a set of problems with my Griff 500 including eating spark plugs, intermittent misfires etc. Tower View had done the normal things and got to the point where we both agreed that rolling road testing (Power Engineering Uxbridge) with Mark Adams who had chipped the car when the engine was modded was going to be the way forward.
The problems were caused by several things all combining almost at random:
Coil intermittently breaking down, distributor cap intermittently arcing internally causing misfire, distributor advance intermittent caused by faulty valve in vac feed, timing way out caused by pulley markings in the wrong place and finally the fuelling wasn't quite right. Apart from that, it was fine
The point is I was also wondering whther I had a mechanical problem as the ignition bits had been tested and replaced but had not cured the problem. The difficulty is that you can easily get sucked into the "replace the ignition/fuel injectionby trial and error" which is expensive. Before going further it might be worth putting the car on a rolling road with the diagnostic stuff to see what is actually going wrong. Having seen what the could find and solve with my own eyes was really enlightening.
Steve
www.tvrbooks.co.uk
APM, I am located in the West Midlands. The car is back with the main dealer next week but if that fails I would be interested in who you would recomend. I will also ask the dealer questions around the ECU codes you mention....thank you.
SHPUB, thank you for the information, it certainly gives me another angle/approach to take with the dealer if they are not making any progress.
At the moment I am looking for intelligent questions and ideas for me to raise with the dealer to try and drive this to a conclusion and not end up being sent away with a "try this and see".
With all the problem I have had with the car from new, it has spent more time broken/at the dealers than it has putting a smile on my face, I am starting to think about fitness for purpose/merchantability and talking to a lawyer!
Would rather not go down that road but I am so disappointed with the car that all my TVR loyalty is draining away day by day and the piss taking from friends, work mates, wife and even children makes me feel as though I have made a very big mistake buying this car!!!
SHPUB, thank you for the information, it certainly gives me another angle/approach to take with the dealer if they are not making any progress.
At the moment I am looking for intelligent questions and ideas for me to raise with the dealer to try and drive this to a conclusion and not end up being sent away with a "try this and see".
With all the problem I have had with the car from new, it has spent more time broken/at the dealers than it has putting a smile on my face, I am starting to think about fitness for purpose/merchantability and talking to a lawyer!
Would rather not go down that road but I am so disappointed with the car that all my TVR loyalty is draining away day by day and the piss taking from friends, work mates, wife and even children makes me feel as though I have made a very big mistake buying this car!!!
As Steve and I have already said. You could do far worse than talk to Mark Adams and book a session on a rolling road with him.
There could be more than one issue at play here, and only by using the right sort of facilities can you get to the crux of the problem. The rolling road and other equipment needed are not the sort of tools normally at the dispiposal of your average dealer - hence they are very rarely used or recommended by them.
As far as the TVR goes, don't get too dispirited, this sort of thing does happen with plenty of other makes/engines.
There could be more than one issue at play here, and only by using the right sort of facilities can you get to the crux of the problem. The rolling road and other equipment needed are not the sort of tools normally at the dispiposal of your average dealer - hence they are very rarely used or recommended by them.
As far as the TVR goes, don't get too dispirited, this sort of thing does happen with plenty of other makes/engines.
Digga, point taken although I have already had the car back to Power at my own expense who came up with an error code 21 - Airflow meter which has subsequently been replaced but the problem persists.
Given that the car is still under warranty - should I need to spend more money on trying to get it sorted when it should be the responsiblity of TVR and the dealers? I guess your response will be .... do you want it sorted or not and you are probably right.
I hear what you say about other cars/engines but I have a list of 15 parts/problems which have been fixed in 8 months. I'm not whinging and I don't thrash the car .... so is this really acceptable???
Given that the car is still under warranty - should I need to spend more money on trying to get it sorted when it should be the responsiblity of TVR and the dealers? I guess your response will be .... do you want it sorted or not and you are probably right.
I hear what you say about other cars/engines but I have a list of 15 parts/problems which have been fixed in 8 months. I'm not whinging and I don't thrash the car .... so is this really acceptable???
Ford Prefect,
In the attempt to offer you some solice, mine is 5 months old and although I havent had issues with the engine as you have the list of issues with mine is enormous. They are all pretty trivial really with mine, its things like very loose window glass, lumpy idle, loss of power from 1500 - 2500 revs, constant blowing of bulbs, interior issues, leaks etc etc etc.
I have come to the opinion that I am going to have to put up with these things until I can leave the car at the dealers for an appreciable amount of time and will expect everything sorted at the end of that period and to be sorted for nothing at that.
But what will I do if its not, nothing probably, which is a crime really, but regardless of its faults I love it, as I am sure you do.
Its not acceptable, but it appears to be the way they run their business, and they're making money running it like that so I dont expect much will change.
Matt.
>> Edited by plotloss on Thursday 14th March 14:36
In the attempt to offer you some solice, mine is 5 months old and although I havent had issues with the engine as you have the list of issues with mine is enormous. They are all pretty trivial really with mine, its things like very loose window glass, lumpy idle, loss of power from 1500 - 2500 revs, constant blowing of bulbs, interior issues, leaks etc etc etc.
I have come to the opinion that I am going to have to put up with these things until I can leave the car at the dealers for an appreciable amount of time and will expect everything sorted at the end of that period and to be sorted for nothing at that.
But what will I do if its not, nothing probably, which is a crime really, but regardless of its faults I love it, as I am sure you do.
Its not acceptable, but it appears to be the way they run their business, and they're making money running it like that so I dont expect much will change.
Matt.
>> Edited by plotloss on Thursday 14th March 14:36
Ford
I agree, you shouldn't experince a long list of faults with any new car. Granted TVRs are built more with light weight, performance and (relative) value for money in mind - rather than say Merc/Lexus build quality - but they should still function.
As far as the eninge goes - yes, you very possibly do need to decide whether or not you need it sorted, and if so, go your own way rather than the dealers'.
I know from when my own car was on the rolling road for a re-chip after an engine mod', how issues that previously went undetected - mine had a faulty fuel regulator valve, which didn't deliver sufficient high-end fuel pressure - can be diagnosed.
Along with my car, was a Range Rover V8, which had never worked 100% in the 50000 miles the owner had had it, despite the dealers best efforts. It was sorted that day - job done.
I agree, you shouldn't experince a long list of faults with any new car. Granted TVRs are built more with light weight, performance and (relative) value for money in mind - rather than say Merc/Lexus build quality - but they should still function.
As far as the eninge goes - yes, you very possibly do need to decide whether or not you need it sorted, and if so, go your own way rather than the dealers'.
I know from when my own car was on the rolling road for a re-chip after an engine mod', how issues that previously went undetected - mine had a faulty fuel regulator valve, which didn't deliver sufficient high-end fuel pressure - can be diagnosed.
Along with my car, was a Range Rover V8, which had never worked 100% in the 50000 miles the owner had had it, despite the dealers best efforts. It was sorted that day - job done.
Matt, it does help to know that I'm not alone.
All, thank you very much for your ideas/thoughts. The car goes back to the dealers tomorrow (Wednesday) for a three day investigation of the problem and I shall use your thoughts as questions if progress is not being made.
If they don't sort it out this time then maybe I need to think about spending some money on the rolling road approach but what about my warranty.....will it still be valid if I go for the rolling road.
Anyway, I will update this thread over the weekend to let you know what the dealer comes up with and who knows I might be singing their praises and naming them!!!
Cheers,....John.
All, thank you very much for your ideas/thoughts. The car goes back to the dealers tomorrow (Wednesday) for a three day investigation of the problem and I shall use your thoughts as questions if progress is not being made.
If they don't sort it out this time then maybe I need to think about spending some money on the rolling road approach but what about my warranty.....will it still be valid if I go for the rolling road.
Anyway, I will update this thread over the weekend to let you know what the dealer comes up with and who knows I might be singing their praises and naming them!!!
Cheers,....John.
YES YES YES YES My 400SE had a broken valve spring due to thrashing it through the gears. Ran like a pig wouldnt idle correctly. Took heads of myself and also found head gasket knackered. Bought new stage 3 heads from rimmers then got Mowatts to strip, enlarge ports, and reassemble yum yum
Weekend update ..... Car has been at the dealers since Wednesday morning and so far ignition system/circuit checked....clear, wet and dry compression test including cylinder leakage test....clear, fuel injection system checked.....clear. Now in conference with TVR Power for more ideas/thoughts.
One thing that is just unbelieveable for a "new" car under TVR warranty is that the dealers don't appear to be paid for diagnostic work, same as for extended warranty with third party. So my car has to sit and wait for any spare time the guys in the workshop have after doing their fare paying work first. While I understand the dealers point of view in needing to earn money to pay the wages and run the business....it is just unreal from my point of view....surely at least during the manufacturers warranty period the dealers should be paid by TVR for diagnostic work or I could be waiting for bloody weeks before they have enough time to complete the diagnostics and fix my car.
Am I just being very naive or shouldn't we expect to have our cars fixed and the dealers paid for the work they do??
One thing that is just unbelieveable for a "new" car under TVR warranty is that the dealers don't appear to be paid for diagnostic work, same as for extended warranty with third party. So my car has to sit and wait for any spare time the guys in the workshop have after doing their fare paying work first. While I understand the dealers point of view in needing to earn money to pay the wages and run the business....it is just unreal from my point of view....surely at least during the manufacturers warranty period the dealers should be paid by TVR for diagnostic work or I could be waiting for bloody weeks before they have enough time to complete the diagnostics and fix my car.
Am I just being very naive or shouldn't we expect to have our cars fixed and the dealers paid for the work they do??
Sounds to me like the dealer is taking you for a bit of a ride, I'm sure they are fed up of you going back time and again, but if they got it sorted this wouldn't be the case.
Moving on to using lawyers to solve your issues is only going to be costly and time consuming, in the mean time you are going to have a very expensive car sitting around doing nothing. What I'd suggest is a more direct approach with the dealer. What you have described IS unacceptable, I know I wouldn't take this sort of on going trouble on the chin (as you appear to have) but after one bad experience with a now insolvent dealer (that should say a lot) I don't let this sort of thing happen now.
The line about "fare paying work" would drive me nuts (it's why I take my wife with me, tends to stop me hitting people [I'm only small so this is usually a bad thing]), but you shouldn't accept this sort of attitude from a dealer. I'm sure they were quite happy to spend the time "selling you the car". Go back to them, tell them that it is their responsibility to sort this "fully" in a timely fashion. Don't get angry, don't make unreasonable requestes, but do make let them know that you will take it further if you have too.
One final thing - I let a problem like this drag on beyond my warranty once (the first dealer). At 12 months & 1 day they said, "sorry, your warranty is up!".
Moving on to using lawyers to solve your issues is only going to be costly and time consuming, in the mean time you are going to have a very expensive car sitting around doing nothing. What I'd suggest is a more direct approach with the dealer. What you have described IS unacceptable, I know I wouldn't take this sort of on going trouble on the chin (as you appear to have) but after one bad experience with a now insolvent dealer (that should say a lot) I don't let this sort of thing happen now.
The line about "fare paying work" would drive me nuts (it's why I take my wife with me, tends to stop me hitting people [I'm only small so this is usually a bad thing]), but you shouldn't accept this sort of attitude from a dealer. I'm sure they were quite happy to spend the time "selling you the car". Go back to them, tell them that it is their responsibility to sort this "fully" in a timely fashion. Don't get angry, don't make unreasonable requestes, but do make let them know that you will take it further if you have too.
One final thing - I let a problem like this drag on beyond my warranty once (the first dealer). At 12 months & 1 day they said, "sorry, your warranty is up!".
Easter update - after nine days at the dealers I got a call on Thursday to tell me they had tried everything and can't find the problem....so come and take your car away so you can drive it over the Easter weekend and it's booked into TVR Power on Monday the 8th for another holiday whilst they take the engine to bits I guess.
Picked car up, still misfiring like mad but now it has also got an exhaust blow somewhere and the most worrying clacking noise from the top of the engine.
Just out of interest, I sat down and worked some stats out for my car. I bought it brand new on the 20th July and during the 36 weeks I've owned it it has spent:
11% of its time at various dealers
42% of its time running with mechanical problems including overheating, leaking radiator (fill it for every journey), blowing exhaust manifold gasket (sounded like a traction engine) and misfiring (getting gradually worse - now REALLY bad)
47% of its time running correctly - but hey what the hell am I complaining about - its a TVR and if I don't like it buy something else....except I'm tied into a bloody three year lease and would lose shed-loads of money selling it especially as no one in their right mind would buy it in its current state - pop, fart, bang, clack, rattle and three more suitable sounds cos its a V8!!.
Still I only paid £7K deposit and £560 a month for three years.....get real boy its an enthusiasts car you've got to expect the odd problem - ballcocks, its a bag of nails and the manufacturers feed on "its a hand-built British sportscar and you should expect problems".
Well if Power don't completely sort it out I am going after TVR with a lawyer and that's a promise.
Do you know that the dealer thought it would be nice for me to have the car back over Easter cos I could get the hood down.....reality is the engine sounds even worse with the hood down and just upsets me even more - it's far worse now than when I handed it over to them.
So it has spent Easter sitting on the drive looking straight back at me daring me to get really pissed off by starting it and listening to the assorment of noises from under the bonnet that claim to be a V8 British high performance eight months old hand-built sportscar.
Picked car up, still misfiring like mad but now it has also got an exhaust blow somewhere and the most worrying clacking noise from the top of the engine.
Just out of interest, I sat down and worked some stats out for my car. I bought it brand new on the 20th July and during the 36 weeks I've owned it it has spent:
11% of its time at various dealers
42% of its time running with mechanical problems including overheating, leaking radiator (fill it for every journey), blowing exhaust manifold gasket (sounded like a traction engine) and misfiring (getting gradually worse - now REALLY bad)
47% of its time running correctly - but hey what the hell am I complaining about - its a TVR and if I don't like it buy something else....except I'm tied into a bloody three year lease and would lose shed-loads of money selling it especially as no one in their right mind would buy it in its current state - pop, fart, bang, clack, rattle and three more suitable sounds cos its a V8!!.
Still I only paid £7K deposit and £560 a month for three years.....get real boy its an enthusiasts car you've got to expect the odd problem - ballcocks, its a bag of nails and the manufacturers feed on "its a hand-built British sportscar and you should expect problems".
Well if Power don't completely sort it out I am going after TVR with a lawyer and that's a promise.
Do you know that the dealer thought it would be nice for me to have the car back over Easter cos I could get the hood down.....reality is the engine sounds even worse with the hood down and just upsets me even more - it's far worse now than when I handed it over to them.
So it has spent Easter sitting on the drive looking straight back at me daring me to get really pissed off by starting it and listening to the assorment of noises from under the bonnet that claim to be a V8 British high performance eight months old hand-built sportscar.
Gassing Station | General TVR Stuff & Gossip | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff