RE: Exclusive: The Wheeler Interview

[dinkel]

beano500 said:

And putting it all back in perspective, ALL older cars are less technologically advanced than their newer counterparts. The main safety equipment remains the "nut behind the wheel" in all cases anyway! Excellent article, mind, Ted!

Something to think about: a new car bumps into an older car gives sh*t to the older example and the people involved . . . Given the cars are about the same size / weight. It's a reason for many to buy the newest car in reach . . . A MK2 and MK4 Golf have a few 100 kgs weight diff and it's all energy to absorb or recept! Bang!

I agree that airbag and abs are for the mindless drivers and they are a majority. It also makes drivers feel safe and drive uncarefull . . . "what can happen to me tailgaiting at a 80 mph!?" Gaining more weight also . . .

[fish]

jamieheasman said:

I'd love to see some documentary proof of the Tuscan passing the off-set impact test with flaying colours as it would mean I could import one here in NZ! I heard it fell off the jig and the people conducting the test wanted another one! You can imagine Mr Wheeler's response to that.

I've seen the actual car, the frontal impacts seem to have been taken extremely well. The side had very limited intrusion and the door would still have opened. Wouldn't like to have been in it though. The T350 sideimpact protection is now abox beam which does look very good.

[PetrolTed]

Before we take too much comfort...

www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=13&t=94057

I'm told it was a side impact with a lamp post.

[rev-erend]

wedg1e said:

ATG said: Before we all get too carried away with the indestructability of our cars, it is worth noting that for those of us in Chimaeras and Griffiths (and I guess the same is true of the S models), there is no roll over protection and damn all side impact protection, certainly no side impact bars. >> Edited by ATG on Monday 19th April 00:35 Really? I find it hard to believe that TVR threw away the idea of side impact frames that were in the Wedge doors, once they started making the S series. Though I could be wrong, of course. Ian

Wedgie - just check out the actual width of a Griff / Chim door - they are so thin that they cannot possibly contain a crash bar.

The Wedge is far better in that respect.

Quite a few TVR (Griff / Chimp) crash deaths have been caused by the owners spinning (new owners showing off usually) and hitting a lamp post.

My personal view is - if you know about it (lack of side protection) then you make driving allowances for it.

ABS - personally I don't need it but there are many who do and it should really be on the options list.

Air bag - always hated the idea of them. A spike in the steering wheel centre is a much better idea.

[Mr E]

I'm going to remain unmoved by the ABS arguement I'm afraid. ABS is a good thing (tm) IMHO, and I like it.

Mainly because it will modulate all 4 wheels as best it can.

The best driver in the world still has one pedal for four wheels. You modulate to the wheel with least grip. On a nice smooth consistant road, not a problem.

When was the last time you saw one of those round here?

[chimhunter]

I remember seeing a program where one of the pundits was saying that something along the lines of 'Safety features promote unsafe driving'. His reasoning was if you had a bldy great spike sticking out of the centre of your steering wheel, you would drive very differently (in terms of safety) than if you had a pillow attatched to your steering wheel. Where you would go to sleep and crash anyway. But you get the point.

I certainly drive the Chim more carefully than the S2000 (anti-lock brakes but no TC) and definitely more safely than the Puma (TC and ABS).

However, I am not a driving god, and on a cold, dark, wet night I'd like ABS to back me up in the case that I have a "moment of madness" and drive beyond the conditions.

Rob

[TUS 373]

IIRC for the reasons mentioned above: when cars with ABS first arrived in France, the insurance premiums were higher than non-ABS fitted cars for that very reason. Drivers drove with less caution and had more claims because they felt safer.

[PetrolTed]

People place a lot of faith in ABS to get them out of trouble when the limits may have been exceeded anyway. I'm still undecided...

I know the ABS on my car kicks in very early. Having been used to a car without ABS it still unnerves me a bit when it happens (only done it in 'test' scenarios so far though).

[pdV6]

I've heard of several people (numpties?), both 1st and 2nd hand, who've been so suprised/worried at the noise & feeling of the ABS triggering in a tight situation that they've panicked and lifted OFF the pedal.

If they're that flappable, I can't imagine they were capable of steering out of trouble at the time either, so they may well have been better off without it.

[catretriever]

chimhunter said:

I remember seeing a program where one of the pundits was saying that something along the lines of 'Safety features promote unsafe driving'

Yeah I remember that one...seemed to be directed toward Volvo drivers at the time that their SIPS was the latest thing...

[fergusd]

PetrolTed said:

It's an interesting point though. Take the new Elise for example (might be a poor example given it's light weight). It's got fantastic brakes. Step hard on them and you'll come to a rapid stop. Locking up the wheels is very difficult and I couldn't actually get the ABS to kick in. I simply stopped very quickly doing an emergency stop. I'd argue that the ABS is completely unnecessary in that car and is only there for marketing purposes.

Interesting observation Ted, did you drive the car in the wet ?

Fd

[PetrolTed]

I drove the Exige in the wet.

I suspect preference is very driven by past experience and what you've learned from extreme situations. I can't steer and brake at the same time because I've just got it ingrained not to!

[dinkel]

PetrolTed said:

( . . . ) I can't steer and brake at the same time because I've just got it ingrained not to!

So a driving course will provide extreme situations and the opurtunity to get it right / ingrained in ur head. Switching cars regulary (Civic with nothing and Golf with all the options . . .) can't permit me thinking: do I have abs now?

After the course, braking in wet, avoiding sudden object doing 60, slip in tight bend etc. it helped me to react proper and safe in extreme situation in real life. And not a scratch on the metal skin yet . . .

[Mr E]

pdV6 said:

I've heard of several people (numpties?), both 1st and 2nd hand, who've been so suprised/worried at the noise & feeling of the ABS triggering in a tight situation that they've panicked and lifted OFF the pedal.

Yup. I've *forced* my mother to do an emergency stop in her ABS equipped Polo. She didn't like it, but I felt she needed to know what it would feel like.

I've never got this "brake assist". If I'm in a car with ABS, and someone pulls out on me, I'm going to *crush* the brakes into the floor.

I can't understand that some people won't brake hard enough......

[zumbruk]

PetrolTed said:

ATG said: Before we all get too carried away with the indestructability of our cars, it is worth noting that for those of us in Chimaeras and Griffiths (and I guess the same is true of the S models), there is no roll over protection and damn all side impact protection, certainly no side impact bars. It's something I was concious of when writing this article. Sadly the older cars do have gaps in their armoury.

I must say I feel a lot happier in my Chimaera now it has a rollover bar. Even though my chances of being involved in a rollover accident are probably smaller than those of winning the lottery.

[bassfiend]

A.G. said:

Edited to say I just realised I sound like a Volvo driver. Sorry and goodnight.

There's nothing inherently wrong with Volvo drivers...

...this volvo driver has his "My other cars a TVR" sticker ready and waiting! Oh

Phil

[ehasler]

PetrolTed said:

Fair point, although the roll cage, GRP etc provide protection around the door frame on newer cars (Tuscan onwards). No reason to think that is any less safe than a thin bit of steel door skin in a Peugeot/Ford etc.

Here's a photo of the inside of a Tuscan door - it doesn't look particularly chunky to me, although better than nothing I guess.



Saying that, I've seen race cars where the door bars (which are part of the roll cage) have been pushed half-way into the passenger compartment, so there will always be impacts where no amount of safety devices will help.

[Redtuscan]

PW may have a point about the chassis. He may even have a point about front airbags. However in any TVR you sit very close to the sides of it. Side/curtain airbags would be of great help.

PW says he is very keen on safety. Why are there so many people on here who keep saying "it just swopped ends on me". Are they all poor drivers on cold tyres?

Why are Joospeed's Nitron suspension upgrades so popular?

Does PW seriously expect anyone to believe that in the dry and especially in the wet a TVR will stop in a straight line as well as any car with ABS, EBD and traction control?

Why do even F1 drivers campaign to keep the electronic aids?

Experienced car magazine road testers in the dry and with care on a good day just about manage to match cars with all the above. Could an average driver in an emergency in a state of blind panic?

Perhaps a car magazine could make an average driver do an emergency stop in identical cars, one with all the electronic aids switched on and one with them all off and the ABS disconnected and then repeat it in the wet.

Perhaps NCAP could crash two identical sports cars, one with the airbag switched on and one with it disconnected and we could then see the effects on the dummy of airbag versus no airbag.

[rev-erend]

bassfiend said:

A.G. said: Edited to say I just realised I sound like a Volvo driver. Sorry and goodnight. There's nothing inherently wrong with Volvo drivers... ...this volvo driver has his "My other cars a TVR" sticker ready and waiting! Oh Phil

I've got one of those :



Sorry it's a naf picture .. ignore the grinning idiot with the camera (doh !)

[RichB]

bassfiend said:

A.G. said: Edited to say I just realised I sound like a Volvo driver. Sorry and goodnight. There's nothing inherently wrong with Volvo drivers...this volvo driver has his "My other cars a TVR" sticker ready and waiting! Oh Phil

Don't worry Phil. The TVR & T5 combination is quite popular amongst more enlightened drivers amongst us. Rich...