RE: Exclusive: The Wheeler Interview
Discussion
PetrolTed said:A "professional" driver I've spoken to actually does rate the Lotus ABS Ted.
It's an interesting point though. Take the new Elise for example (might be a poor example given it's light weight). It's got fantastic brakes. Step hard on them and you'll come to a rapid stop. Locking up the wheels is very difficult and I couldn't actually get the ABS to kick in. I simply stopped very quickly doing an emergency stop. I'd argue that the ABS is completely unnecessary in that car and is only there for marketing purposes.
However it should be pointed out that the ABS in the Elise is a million miles away from the normal car ABS in it's response.
I have no idea how much money Lotus spent on developing their ABS system, but given its for a homologated car it probably was more than the entire budget that PW has for a new car!
To that end I am sure finances (which aren't mentioned) will play a part in his decisions as well (which isn't mentioned, but is a perfectly valid point).
Good article though Ted.
J
Redtuscan said:I don't know how such things are designed, but I don't like the idea of being bent sideways over the transmission tunnel, something that simply won't happen in most (if not all) cars that have these fitted.
Side/curtain airbags would be of great help.
Redtuscan said:No car "just swops ends". Just because the driver doesn't know, didn't see or can't remember what happened does not stop this being true. I would guess that most cases of this are to do with having the car unbalanced when turning into corner, too much right boot or unseen patches of slippery road (manhole, ice, diesel, etc.).
Why are there so many people on here who keep saying "it just swopped ends on me".
Redtuscan said:Of course, every other manufacturer in the world fits the perfect suspension
Why are Joospeed's Nitron suspension upgrades so popular?
. On the other hand TVR owners are probably more likely than most to spend money improving their car because they are more likely to be enthusiasts.Redtuscan said:Erm..., I can't say I see the point of TC in ths example, but anyway. I have heard that a skilled driver using cadence braking can make a non-ABS equipped car stop more quickly than one with ABS without the use of cadence braking.
Does PW seriously expect anyone to believe that in the dry and especially in the wet a TVR will stop in a straight line as well as any car with ABS, EBD and traction control?
Redtuscan said:Probably because it makes them easier to drive on the absolute limit. No road car should be driven at the absolute limit on the road, so it's rather a pointless comparison.
Why do even F1 drivers campaign to keep the electronic aids?
Redtuscan said:PW answered this one for himself.
Experienced car magazine road testers in the dry and with care on a good day just about manage to match cars with all the above. Could an average driver in an emergency in a state of blind panic?
Redtuscan said:I'm sure they could. I'm less sure that it would tell you very much though. The occupants of a car will protect themselves as best they can. Dummies do not do this. However, that has nothing to do with PW's point, which is that in certain conditions providing an airbag could deprive the occupants of this opportunity and be fatal. He would not feel happy under those circumstances. Granted, that says little about the coupes, but from what I've read I suspect he has his reasons.
Perhaps NCAP could crash two identical sports cars, one with the airbag switched on and one with it disconnected and we could then see the effects on the dummy of airbag versus no airbag.
I'm going to play the grumpy devils advocate here, because I think there is an element of Wheeler hero -worship going on.
Frankly, Peter Wheeler sounds to me that he is talking out of his derrier and using pseudo science and bloody mindedness to justify his decisions.
He does'nt want to tool up the business to fix safety aids, so he would rather suggest that they are'nt all they are cracked up to be anyhow.
Well sorry, but I just don't buy it.
The market speaks here. If what PW is saying is true then the big manufacturers would gladly opt out of spending the billions that they do on safety development , and weld a few bits of scaffolding together blackpool fashion.
They don't. And the developments in car safety that drive public policy come from academic engineering research houses around Europe and the world. Smart blokes in white coats have written off thousands of cars ( Including Convertibles !! ) and as a result they commend the evolution of safety devices to policy makers.
Some car manufacturers stay ahead of the curve by being proactive and test things themselves ( renault ) while others wait until policy tell them to.
What cannot be denied is that on balance side airbags, front airbags, ABS and TC have saved many lives.
A grumpy yorkshireman can howl at the moon and pretend that it is all claptrap, but more and smarter people than I and he disagree. My moneys on them.
And TVR will always be a bit player in the global sports car business while they pursue this attitude.
This attitude denies them access to global markets. It restricts their market to the fortunes ( and slowdowns ) of one country. And it denies them any shot at decent growth. Thats fine if TVR is to remain Peter Wheelers personal toy shop, but it does not mean that the company can be taken seriously anywhere else ( especially as they won't be available anywhere else ! ).
Unlike Lotus ( bravo ! ) who have a plan and they are rolling it out. They have crash tested the Elise, complied with US regs, and now are selling cars over there. Soon the new Esprit will be in dealers all over the US and selling like hot cakes.
Give it a decade and Lotus's global presence and growth will make TVR look like the cottage industry it still is.
God help the boys in Blackpool if we have a recession. They are buggered if we do, with not much cash in the bank and little exposure in other markets.
Now I'm off to buy a Volvo. With extra airbags on the side.
No offence intended to TVR fans everywhere, but I spotted the link on the front page of PH and fancied a banter.
Cheers everyone.
Frankly, Peter Wheeler sounds to me that he is talking out of his derrier and using pseudo science and bloody mindedness to justify his decisions.
He does'nt want to tool up the business to fix safety aids, so he would rather suggest that they are'nt all they are cracked up to be anyhow.
Well sorry, but I just don't buy it.
The market speaks here. If what PW is saying is true then the big manufacturers would gladly opt out of spending the billions that they do on safety development , and weld a few bits of scaffolding together blackpool fashion.
They don't. And the developments in car safety that drive public policy come from academic engineering research houses around Europe and the world. Smart blokes in white coats have written off thousands of cars ( Including Convertibles !! ) and as a result they commend the evolution of safety devices to policy makers.
Some car manufacturers stay ahead of the curve by being proactive and test things themselves ( renault ) while others wait until policy tell them to.
What cannot be denied is that on balance side airbags, front airbags, ABS and TC have saved many lives.
A grumpy yorkshireman can howl at the moon and pretend that it is all claptrap, but more and smarter people than I and he disagree. My moneys on them.
And TVR will always be a bit player in the global sports car business while they pursue this attitude.
This attitude denies them access to global markets. It restricts their market to the fortunes ( and slowdowns ) of one country. And it denies them any shot at decent growth. Thats fine if TVR is to remain Peter Wheelers personal toy shop, but it does not mean that the company can be taken seriously anywhere else ( especially as they won't be available anywhere else ! ).
Unlike Lotus ( bravo ! ) who have a plan and they are rolling it out. They have crash tested the Elise, complied with US regs, and now are selling cars over there. Soon the new Esprit will be in dealers all over the US and selling like hot cakes.
Give it a decade and Lotus's global presence and growth will make TVR look like the cottage industry it still is.
God help the boys in Blackpool if we have a recession. They are buggered if we do, with not much cash in the bank and little exposure in other markets.
Now I'm off to buy a Volvo. With extra airbags on the side.
No offence intended to TVR fans everywhere, but I spotted the link on the front page of PH and fancied a banter.
Cheers everyone.
PetrolTed said:I've been thinking about this one, particularly after reading the other thread about the driver that just recently died in his TVR due to head injuries, something that airbags logically reduce.
The use of an airbag in a convertible fills him with horror. In the event of a roll or even the car simply tipping over slowly the driver can at least make some effort at self preservation – an airbag inflating simply pops the head up into the danger zone he told me.
There is a small flaw in PW argument it seems - namely why doesn't PW therefore fit airbags into his non-convertible cars then?
This is not a dig (heck 3 out of 4 of my cars, soon to be 4 out of 5, do not have airbags) but just an observation that there is an inconsistency here.
Ted - is this just in the way that you wrote it up (I appreciate that it's sometimes, if not impossible, to get the whole meaning)?
With the accident happening (with the resultant reported cause of death) is surely not going to go unnoticed by the Telegraph jurno that wrote the article.....
J
At the 1st lotu day at North Welad the Griffith and 400se outperformed both the S2 111s Elise of my mate and Andy Walsh the instructor in straight line braking in the wet.
The other car with us was an S2000 with ABS and it stopped, but took at leat 5 - 12m more than the TVR's in the wet.... that's a long way.
The Elise's were at least 15 - 25m. That's a scary distance away.
Andy himself was heard to quote as an ex F1 driver, "I wish my Elise stopped like that" and "I wouldn't want ABS as I want to control & moderate my own braking".
The other car with us was an S2000 with ABS and it stopped, but took at leat 5 - 12m more than the TVR's in the wet.... that's a long way.
The Elise's were at least 15 - 25m. That's a scary distance away.
Andy himself was heard to quote as an ex F1 driver, "I wish my Elise stopped like that" and "I wouldn't want ABS as I want to control & moderate my own braking".
toppstuff said:
I'm going to play the grumpy devils advocate here, because I think there is an element of Wheeler hero -worship going on.
Frankly, Peter Wheeler sounds to me that he is talking out of his derrier and using pseudo science and bloody mindedness to justify his decisions.
I must admit I was thinking much along the same lines.
toppstuff said:
]
The market speaks here. If what PW is saying is true then the big manufacturers would gladly opt out of spending the billions that they do on safety development , and weld a few bits of scaffolding together blackpool fashion.
They don't. And the developments in car safety that drive public policy come from academic engineering research houses around Europe and the world. Smart blokes in white coats have written off thousands of cars ( Including Convertibles !! ) and as a result they commend the evolution of safety devices to policy makers.
Well, I know for a fact that Volvo did not rate airbags at all, based on their own safety research. Market pressures persuaded them otherwise. What's more disturbing that of the three manufacturers known to have performed intensive safety research for the past three decades, for a large part based on assessment of real-life accidents, two (Saab and Mercedes) dod come out bottom of the heap on one of the first NCAP crash test sessions. Both cars, however, have proven to be amongst the safest in independent assessments of real accidents since. This tells me to treat the results of lab-based safety tests with extreme caution. The reality is always far more complicated and less clear-cut.
toppstuff said:
Some car manufacturers stay ahead of the curve by being proactive and test things themselves ( renault ) while others wait until policy tell them to.
Renault is one of those manufacturers that had no real history in safety engineering until NCAP came along and safety became a marketable item in the form of NCAP stars. I would humbly suggest it's relatively easy to engineer a car that meets the requirements of four standardized tests to perfection, compared to engineering a car that performs well over a vast range of accident types. In real life, no two crashes are the same - ruthlessly optimizing the structure of cars for a standardized test will inevitably mean crash performance will be less than optimal elsewhere, I'm afraid.
toppstuff said:
What cannot be denied is that on balance side airbags, front airbags, ABS and TC have saved many lives.
I think you or anyone will have a hard time coming up with undisputable data that supports this vision. it's hardly so that every fatal accident will be researched so thoroughly that a conclusion can be cast in stone. Heck, they still don't know exactly what happend when Princess Di and her loverboy met an untimely demise against a concrete pier, despite thousands of pages full of speculation by the media...
Your statement might be just as much a gross generalization as 'Speed Kills'...
The gross simplification of complex matters makes things understandable and marketable to the general public, but incorrect all the same. For starters, a technical review of safety items without taking human psychology in mind won't do much for road safety, as witnessed by thousands of Golf TDI and Mondeo drivers who think they can drive within six inches distance of my rear bumper at 85 mph in the pouring rain just because they have ABS and TCS and a raft of airbags, every day.
>> Edited by 900T-R on Monday 19th April 15:37
toppstuff said:
I'm going to play the grumpy devils advocate here, because I think there is an element of Wheeler hero -worship going on.
Frankly, Peter Wheeler sounds to me that he is talking out of his derrier and using pseudo science and bloody mindedness to justify his decisions.
He does'nt want to tool up the business to fix safety aids, so he would rather suggest that they are'nt all they are cracked up to be anyhow.
Well sorry, but I just don't buy it.
The market speaks here. If what PW is saying is true then the big manufacturers would gladly opt out of spending the billions that they do on safety development , and weld a few bits of scaffolding together blackpool fashion.
They don't. And the developments in car safety that drive public policy come from academic engineering research houses around Europe and the world. Smart blokes in white coats have written off thousands of cars ( Including Convertibles !! ) and as a result they commend the evolution of safety devices to policy makers.
Some car manufacturers stay ahead of the curve by being proactive and test things themselves ( renault ) while others wait until policy tell them to.
What cannot be denied is that on balance side airbags, front airbags, ABS and TC have saved many lives.
A grumpy yorkshireman can howl at the moon and pretend that it is all claptrap, but more and smarter people than I and he disagree. My moneys on them.
And TVR will always be a bit player in the global sports car business while they pursue this attitude.
This attitude denies them access to global markets. It restricts their market to the fortunes ( and slowdowns ) of one country. And it denies them any shot at decent growth. Thats fine if TVR is to remain Peter Wheelers personal toy shop, but it does not mean that the company can be taken seriously anywhere else ( especially as they won't be available anywhere else ! ).
Unlike Lotus ( bravo ! ) who have a plan and they are rolling it out. They have crash tested the Elise, complied with US regs, and now are selling cars over there. Soon the new Esprit will be in dealers all over the US and selling like hot cakes.
Give it a decade and Lotus's global presence and growth will make TVR look like the cottage industry it still is.
God help the boys in Blackpool if we have a recession. They are buggered if we do, with not much cash in the bank and little exposure in other markets.
Now I'm off to buy a Volvo. With extra airbags on the side.
No offence intended to TVR fans everywhere, but I spotted the link on the front page of PH and fancied a banter.
Cheers everyone.
Agree with your points on here. I'd also add there's a certain level of generally unfounded arrogance amongst most drivers who claim they don't need driver aids - on a beautiful dry road, when you driving perfectly poised for an incident, and you've had plenty of experience in hazardous situations, then yes maybe you can do without such safety features. But for mere mortals who travel in all conditions, on all road types and who aren't driving with the focus of a racing driver, then these things will be of assistance at some point or another.
You could at least make them either an optiona extra, or have them switcheable - even the Enzo & Scaglietti(sp?) have switcheable traction control - but what do Ferrari know about building cars, eh.
I'm getting a strong sense of deja-vu here with this debate.
Personally, I like ABS as when some numpty pulls out in front of me my instinct is to mash the brake pedal to the floor. If it's wet, I'm going to skid before my brain kicks into gear and I do the cadence thing. That's something that is hard to simulate in a test. If I knew I had to brake at point A, in a straight line, yes I might be able to stop better and quicker than ABS but emergencies don't always happen at point A, or in a straight line.
As for TC, I'd love a switchable system in the Tiv (RaceLogic?). That way you get the best of both worlds.
In the end, TVRs are cheap as they don't have engineered, deformable safety structures, ABS, traction control etc. etc. They are strong, safe cars but at the end of the day it's down to the driver. Drivers are human and we all make mistakes...
Rob
Personally, I like ABS as when some numpty pulls out in front of me my instinct is to mash the brake pedal to the floor. If it's wet, I'm going to skid before my brain kicks into gear and I do the cadence thing. That's something that is hard to simulate in a test. If I knew I had to brake at point A, in a straight line, yes I might be able to stop better and quicker than ABS but emergencies don't always happen at point A, or in a straight line.
As for TC, I'd love a switchable system in the Tiv (RaceLogic?). That way you get the best of both worlds.
In the end, TVRs are cheap as they don't have engineered, deformable safety structures, ABS, traction control etc. etc. They are strong, safe cars but at the end of the day it's down to the driver. Drivers are human and we all make mistakes...
Rob
PW has done wonders for TVR, but it's now time for a change of direction. All current TVRs are basically the same and compete with each other. They are all of a similar price. They all have similar power outputs and they all go at roughly the same speed. They all look as up to date and as individual as each other.
There is really no need to develop any new cars or engines at the moment. What is needed is some reliability, some driver safety aids and to make the cars more driveable.
The TVR pistonheads forums are full of what has gone wrong stories and poor/dangerous handling stories like no other forums. This is not because they attract moaners or poor drivers, it is because it is really true.
Reliability, handling and driver aids are the areas where the money needs to be spent for the future. Something that looks amazing on a motorshow stand and has amazing power is great for schoolboys, but in the real world buyers want reliability, safety and something to help them out when they make a mistake.
There are plenty of stories on here, along the lines of I was over-taking and just gave it a bit too much throttle/braked/turned the wheel and suddenly I was in a spin.
I don't believe that Joospeed's Nitrons are so popular just because people want a silly upgrade. People spend money on them in the hope that they will cure their car's evil handling.
There is really no need to develop any new cars or engines at the moment. What is needed is some reliability, some driver safety aids and to make the cars more driveable.
The TVR pistonheads forums are full of what has gone wrong stories and poor/dangerous handling stories like no other forums. This is not because they attract moaners or poor drivers, it is because it is really true.
Reliability, handling and driver aids are the areas where the money needs to be spent for the future. Something that looks amazing on a motorshow stand and has amazing power is great for schoolboys, but in the real world buyers want reliability, safety and something to help them out when they make a mistake.
There are plenty of stories on here, along the lines of I was over-taking and just gave it a bit too much throttle/braked/turned the wheel and suddenly I was in a spin.
I don't believe that Joospeed's Nitrons are so popular just because people want a silly upgrade. People spend money on them in the hope that they will cure their car's evil handling.
Redtuscan said:
PW has done wonders for TVR, but it's now time for a change of direction. All current TVRs are basically the same and compete with each other. They are all of a similar price. They all have similar power outputs and they all go at roughly the same speed. They all look as up to date and as individual as each other.
There is really no need to develop any new cars or engines at the moment. What is needed is some reliability, some driver safety aids and to make the cars more driveable.
The TVR pistonheads forums are full of what has gone wrong stories and poor/dangerous handling stories like no other forums. This is not because they attract moaners or poor drivers, it is because it is really true.
Reliability, handling and driver aids are the areas where the money needs to be spent for the future. Something that looks amazing on a motorshow stand and has amazing power is great for schoolboys, but in the real world buyers want reliability, safety and something to help them out when they make a mistake.
There are plenty of stories on here, along the lines of I was over-taking and just gave it a bit too much throttle/braked/turned the wheel and suddenly I was in a spin.
I don't believe that Joospeed's Nitrons are so popular just because people want a silly upgrade. People spend money on them in the hope that they will cure their car's evil handling.
wise words that I fully agree with, lets pretend we are a TVR saleman for a bit
'welcome sir, how can i help you'
'i am after a sports car with a big V8'
'sorry, we only do speed 6 engines'
'ok, a sports car with an inline six, whats the difference between those ones over there'
'well thats a Tuscan / Tamora / T350 / Cerb, its a sports car with a 350-400bhp six, a top speed of 170mph, a glass fibre body and a race tuned chassis'
'ok, how much do they cost?'
'40k sir, 50k with metallic paint, air con and non plastic seats'
'do they have abs and traction?'
'no'
'is there a porsche garage near here, oi hear a new boxster is coming out next year?'
>> Edited by bennno on Monday 19th April 17:46
Hmmmm-everyone seems to be focussing on ABS but I thought from reading the postings on the excellent PH site that one of the more common problems was numbskull newbies ( that will be me in May ) or the errr....overconfident .... loseing the tail end by too much throttle or lifting off at the wrong time.If rear wheel torque is the most common problem then an F1 style traction control could save a lot of grief and should not be too expensive ( sensors,EMU programing).
My current car-soon to be replaced by a Tuscan,is a lotus Elise mk 1 this no ABS ( no breaks at all after a wash!) and in my experience I have never had a problem emergency braking ( ....ing London traffic!!!!) but the only time I lost it was on a sharp bend in the snow when I cam out of a tunnel and was just going a bit to fast.
Not even ABS can help with ecessive polar moments of inertia.
My current car-soon to be replaced by a Tuscan,is a lotus Elise mk 1 this no ABS ( no breaks at all after a wash!) and in my experience I have never had a problem emergency braking ( ....ing London traffic!!!!) but the only time I lost it was on a sharp bend in the snow when I cam out of a tunnel and was just going a bit to fast.
Not even ABS can help with ecessive polar moments of inertia.
bennno said:
PW has done wonders for TVR, but it's now time for a change of direction. All current TVRs are basically the same and compete with each other. They are all of a similar price. They all have similar power outputs and they all go at roughly the same speed. They all look as up to date and as individual as each other.
There is really no need to develop any new cars or engines at the moment. What is needed is some reliability, some driver safety aids and to make the cars more driveable.
The TVR pistonheads forums are full of what has gone wrong stories and poor/dangerous handling stories like no other forums. This is not because they attract moaners or poor drivers, it is because it is really true.
Reliability, handling and driver aids are the areas where the money needs to be spent for the future. Something that looks amazing on a motorshow stand and has amazing power is great for schoolboys, but in the real world buyers want reliability, safety and something to help them out when they make a mistake.
There are plenty of stories on here, along the lines of I was over-taking and just gave it a bit too much throttle/braked/turned the wheel and suddenly I was in a spin.
I don't believe that Joospeed's Nitrons are so popular just because people want a silly upgrade. People spend money on them in the hope that they will cure their car's evil handling.
wise words that I fully agree with, lets pretend we are a TVR saleman for a bit
'welcome sir, how can i help you'
'i am after a sports car with a big V8'
'sorry, we only do speed 6 engines'
'ok, a sports car with an inline six, whats the difference between those ones over there'
'well thats a Tuscan / Tamora / T350 / Cerb, its a sports car with a 350-400bhp six, a top speed of 170mph, a glass fibre body and a race tuned chassis'
'ok, how much do they cost?'
'40k sir, 50k with metallic paint, air con and non plastic seats'
'do they have abs and traction?'
'no'
'is there a porsche garage near here, oi hear a new boxster is coming out next year?'
>> Edited by bennno on Monday 19th April 17:46
220 Couldn't have said it better myself, gave up a TVR dealership having spent 8 years trying to get these very points across,they didn't and won't listen.
Dear Mr Wheeler I am jolly chuffed you think so hard about your customers, you are clearly a nice bloke. But a teeny request, perhaps we could be the ones to decide our own destiny and opt for safety devices in our cars should we so desire. optional TC, ABS and airbags would be a good thing really. failing that perhaps some of that foam stuff in the police car in Terminator.
Lets get to the serious point.... I have not read the torygraph article, but before jumping up and down with rage at the impertinence of a journo writing bad things about them, the truth is that in any real world comparison they are Crap cars, they have a loyal following, they make lovely noise, but they are at least 10 years behind the competition, all the twirly dials and swoopy shapes in the world can't hide their essential antiquity - the same failing we throw at Rover happily so why not TVR.
I know how well they have done.... considering their size, and how much of an achievement it is to build an engine and so on, but that is not evident at the till, they are now expensive, and under specced and as a company they seem incapable of handling supply chain, managing effective dealer relationships or using a little CRM to keep clients happy. There have already been rumours about TVRs future on here, Well I say it is time to be bought by someone with deep pockets and the chance to combine the values of the company with some R&D budget and do for TVR what has been done for Aston, Mini, Range Rover and Rolls Royce.
For now TVRs finest safety device seems to be underengineering leading to extended periods of stationaryness, often regarded as the safest mode for fast cars. (If not for wallets)
I am not knocking TVR without reason, I'd love to see them thrive, but I doubt it will happen without radical change and a recognition that Journalists having a pop (however stupid the journo) is a sign of it being time to make some changes before TVR follows the rest of the Lead footed motoring industry to a motor museum full of trunion polishers.
I have owned 2 of them and loved them and while my heart wants another, my head is laughing at the very idea, I am now wary of how unreliable they are and how unsafe so I have an Audi and an empty Garage. Chances are the Garage will get filled with something fun soon, probably not a TVR though, not for now.
my 2c.
Having rolled a car at 100mph..PWs comments on 'having the option of ducking' are total bollocks.
You have no control over your body. The rover that I was in at the time had adjustable seatbelts... which lock down the way, but slide all the way up (still do!), which meant the centrafugal force pushed me up and out into the widscreen scraping my head along the road. You are no more capable of 'ducking down' than of opening the door and walking away half way through the crash.
I now fit at least 3 point racing harnesses in my seat for the purpose.
His arguments are nonesense.
He couldn't live with himself if fitting airbags killed someone?... but he can live with killing people by not fitting them ? (both difficult to prove as other have said, and why his argument is hokum).
As for ABS. Forget dry conditions. In wet, slippy conditions ABS is invaluable. I use it all the time in my mondeo(!) pushing hard. Short of being schumacher, you are never going to be able to find the absolute grip limit on a particular peice of wet road, then cadence break quick enough to outdo ABS 9/10. And the metre or so it brings you up quicker might just be enough to avoid that 5 year old kid.
In dry, even if we had ABS, it woudn't come in in the dry, mechanical grip is so good anyway, so no probs.
ABS costs buttons these days. I don't see a good reason not to have it.
His safety arguments could have came from GM/Ford USA in the 1960s. Ralph Nader would be proud.
Substitute ABS/Airbag for seatbelt. Sound familiar ? 'Seat belts kill. You are taking away our freedom!!'
please.
stu
Having rolled a car at 100mph..PWs comments on 'having the option of ducking' are total bollocks.
You have no control over your body. The rover that I was in at the time had adjustable seatbelts... which lock down the way, but slide all the way up (still do!), which meant the centrafugal force pushed me up and out into the widscreen scraping my head along the road. You are no more capable of 'ducking down' than of opening the door and walking away half way through the crash.
I now fit at least 3 point racing harnesses in my seat for the purpose.
His arguments are nonesense.
He couldn't live with himself if fitting airbags killed someone?... but he can live with killing people by not fitting them ? (both difficult to prove as other have said, and why his argument is hokum).
As for ABS. Forget dry conditions. In wet, slippy conditions ABS is invaluable. I use it all the time in my mondeo(!) pushing hard. Short of being schumacher, you are never going to be able to find the absolute grip limit on a particular peice of wet road, then cadence break quick enough to outdo ABS 9/10. And the metre or so it brings you up quicker might just be enough to avoid that 5 year old kid.
In dry, even if we had ABS, it woudn't come in in the dry, mechanical grip is so good anyway, so no probs.
ABS costs buttons these days. I don't see a good reason not to have it.
His safety arguments could have came from GM/Ford USA in the 1960s. Ralph Nader would be proud.
Substitute ABS/Airbag for seatbelt. Sound familiar ? 'Seat belts kill. You are taking away our freedom!!'
please.
stu
PetrolTed said:
PW maintained to me that in the sort of situation you describe most drivers wouldn't have the presence of mind to brake/steer out of a situation anyway. It was at that point that he also stated that the understeerign characteristics of most cars wouldn't help matters either.
It's an interesting point though. Take the new Elise for example (might be a poor example given it's light weight). It's got fantastic brakes. Step hard on them and you'll come to a rapid stop. Locking up the wheels is very difficult and I couldn't actually get the ABS to kick in. I simply stopped very quickly doing an emergency stop. I'd argue that the ABS is completely unnecessary in that car and is only there for marketing purposes.
Completely disagree about ABS for road use. I can effortlessly lock up my Elise, but perhaps its harder for someone not used to unassisted brakes. I'd love ABS for road usage because for 99% of people it would lower braking distances and allow them to steer more effectively around a problem ahead. Even the best drivers can't vary the brake pressure individually to each wheel to grant much improved steering control.
There are plenty of cars that stop better with ABS than any TVR so his excuse of extended braking distances strikes me as weak. I have no idea if its because hes a luddite or there is some other motive, but whatever the case hes wrong. The new Elises brakes don't pulse the ABS until the wheels are genuinely locked up, and given that Gavan Kershaw did a test run with it and wasn't able to tell that he'd activated the system 3 times in said run, its seems very hands off and subtle. Given that the benchmark Lotus used for this new system is Porsche, then we now have at least 2 companies that can manage it.
So Peter is it just too hard for TVR?
Someone above mentioned cadence braking as opposed to ABS. I doubt Peter was referring to that as thats effectively what ABS does, its just that it does it hundreds of times faster than a human can react and individually to each wheel. To get optimum braking (in a straight line) you just apply the perfect amount of pressure so that you are just before lockup. You then need to moderate this pressure as you slow down or the surface changes. Its bloody hard. Most people can't do it on a track very well. Even fewer can do it in a panic situation on the road when its pissing with rain and theres a pile up in front of you.
Airbags he has a better case with. They are dangerous and can cause injuries of their own. 'Degloving' is as disgusting as it sounds. Much better would be a 4 point harness done up properly tight, but then you have a problem at junctions. After all, race cars don't have airbags and people walk out of crashes road car users die in.
>> Edited by DanH on Monday 19th April 20:47
Just have to say that I agree with PW. The wrecked Chim in the article is mine after a spin on the M62. Every panel was damaged but there was no incursion into the driver or passenger compartments, and my only injury was a bruise on my knee as it hit the steering column.
The stereo was still running too
The stereo was still running too
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