Thinking about buying a TR7
Discussion
I've never been on this part of PH before so you'll have to bear with me.
I'm looking into cars to buy this summer. It's got to be something fairly practical, RWD and wedgy in a 'retro' way, and with good examples for £1000-£1500. I've narrowed it down to a MK1 Toyota MR2, a Fiat X1/9 1500, and the Triumph TR7.
I also like the idea of modifying it rally-style. The X1/9 on the lines of the Abarth Turbo, the MR2 turbocharged as the Group B/S, and of course the TR7 as Tony Pond's Group 4 contender.
Now, I've heard that TR7's were best built after 1979, when they all had 5-speed gearboxes and were built at Canley, rather than Speke.
I don't care what anyone thinks about the looks (I like them, so there), but does anyone else have any buying advice? I've already checked out the MR2 and the X1/9, and preference-wise, they're all at stalemate.
I'm looking into cars to buy this summer. It's got to be something fairly practical, RWD and wedgy in a 'retro' way, and with good examples for £1000-£1500. I've narrowed it down to a MK1 Toyota MR2, a Fiat X1/9 1500, and the Triumph TR7.
I also like the idea of modifying it rally-style. The X1/9 on the lines of the Abarth Turbo, the MR2 turbocharged as the Group B/S, and of course the TR7 as Tony Pond's Group 4 contender.
Now, I've heard that TR7's were best built after 1979, when they all had 5-speed gearboxes and were built at Canley, rather than Speke.
I don't care what anyone thinks about the looks (I like them, so there), but does anyone else have any buying advice? I've already checked out the MR2 and the X1/9, and preference-wise, they're all at stalemate.
About a mile away from me.....
The leading TR7 specialists in the world I would imagine....
www.ss-preparations.co.uk/
The leading TR7 specialists in the world I would imagine....
www.ss-preparations.co.uk/
I owned the 135th car from last (408419) which was Solihull built. It wasn't really that great and I had to reweld a lot of the car.
I spoke to Robsport at the time (93) and they reckened that the best bodyshells were the early Speke ones. It does seem to stack up, they don't rust nearly as much as the later ones, and the welds are a much better quality. The part that let the Speke cars down was the low spec transmission and the dodgy quality of the parts used.
If you are looking for a good car to drive fast then you want a fixed head car. S&S do a good V8 conversion and so do Triumphtune. A major part is getting the engine back towards the bulkhead to make the car handle, and that means a new prop, special crossmember and gearbox control.
My 7 was a DHC. I fitted Konis and lowered springs, a tubular manifold and Mintex M171 pads. It ate brakes and eventually I fitted DS11 pads. The seating position is very low and it is the only car I have ever considered raising the seat on. That was also apparently a concern Tony Pond voiced about the rally cars. It had a fair amount of scuttle shake and was 'nervous' to drive, probably down to the very short wheelbase. I think if you are serious you should test drive some cars before you consider buying.
The best option is to buy a car with all the work done. Failing that get a 7 and fit the performance kit or the Sprint head and ancilliaries.
I spoke to Robsport at the time (93) and they reckened that the best bodyshells were the early Speke ones. It does seem to stack up, they don't rust nearly as much as the later ones, and the welds are a much better quality. The part that let the Speke cars down was the low spec transmission and the dodgy quality of the parts used.
If you are looking for a good car to drive fast then you want a fixed head car. S&S do a good V8 conversion and so do Triumphtune. A major part is getting the engine back towards the bulkhead to make the car handle, and that means a new prop, special crossmember and gearbox control.
My 7 was a DHC. I fitted Konis and lowered springs, a tubular manifold and Mintex M171 pads. It ate brakes and eventually I fitted DS11 pads. The seating position is very low and it is the only car I have ever considered raising the seat on. That was also apparently a concern Tony Pond voiced about the rally cars. It had a fair amount of scuttle shake and was 'nervous' to drive, probably down to the very short wheelbase. I think if you are serious you should test drive some cars before you consider buying.
The best option is to buy a car with all the work done. Failing that get a 7 and fit the performance kit or the Sprint head and ancilliaries.
Well my plan is to buy this car (I'm 21) and have it as a daily driver until I've got a steady job and my own driveway. Then, obviously when I've got space, buy a cheap 'normal' car as an everyday runaround and turn whatever I bought into a motorsport replica project car.
So we're talking about modifications in a few years time, but my primary concern right now is to get something that's quite simple should it break down to be fixed in an afternoon, to teach me a bit more about how cars work, or to be fairly reliable. I was looking at the FHC anyway (more practical and the ultimate rally replica will have to be FHC, plus I'd never get a good DHC for £1-1.5k). Are they viable daily drivers?
So we're talking about modifications in a few years time, but my primary concern right now is to get something that's quite simple should it break down to be fixed in an afternoon, to teach me a bit more about how cars work, or to be fairly reliable. I was looking at the FHC anyway (more practical and the ultimate rally replica will have to be FHC, plus I'd never get a good DHC for £1-1.5k). Are they viable daily drivers?
Also to add - I've added the possibility of a Triumph Spitfire 1500 to that list too. Not only does it have the lowest insurance premiums of all the cars I've looked at, but you can buy new parts for it from BMH (and in some cases even from Halfrauds), they're simplicity itself to work on, the optional hardtop makes them practical (there's a bloke round the corner from me who uses his as a daily driver), they look like a baby E-Type Roadster, they're a convertible, they're RWD, and there's motorsport modification potential too (Macau Spitfire).
It's on the list.
It's on the list.
Take a look at the Club Triumph forum - they should be able to answer any questions 
Are you any good at welding?
>> Edited by AJLintern on Sunday 1st May 20:01
Are you any good at welding?
>> Edited by AJLintern on Sunday 1st May 20:01
Not so good at welding, but my Dad knows engines inside out. Once-over on that and it shouldn't be a problem.
So far as the GT6 goes, I'd rather go for the Spitfire 1500 simply because it was made more recently (last ones sold in 1981 compared with 1974 for the GT6). The engine in the Spitfire is tougher, cheaper to maintain (less carbs to balance), run and easier to find parts for (shared with MGs). I considered the MG alternatives, but they're just a bit stodgy, slow, bad-handling and short on image compared with more glamorous Triumphs.
Just check my profile - my 'possibilities' are:
Toyota MR2 MK1 (reliable but parts very expensive if it does go wrong)
Triumph TR7 (mechanically tough by now but rusts. Parts cheap though)
Fiat X1/9 (see TR7)
Triumph Spitfire (very solid mechanicals but rusty body but at least panels are available new)
BMW E21 3-Series (Bulletproof mechanicals and very reliable but could get rusty. Most expensive for insurance)
Fiat 131 Miafiori (on the list because my Dad had one. Rusted to oblivion but I just can't let it go! Very fast)
Ford Capri Laser (easiest to find parts for, but hard to keep tidy and non-unleaded engines suffer valve seat recession)
Mitsubishi Colt Sapporo (Nothing to go wrong, but impossible to find)
So as you see, Triumph are numerically on top, but what I'll probably do is buy a copy of my local Auto Trader and buy the best of this selection I can find locally. I'm just sussing out buying knowledge and general opinion right now.
So far as the GT6 goes, I'd rather go for the Spitfire 1500 simply because it was made more recently (last ones sold in 1981 compared with 1974 for the GT6). The engine in the Spitfire is tougher, cheaper to maintain (less carbs to balance), run and easier to find parts for (shared with MGs). I considered the MG alternatives, but they're just a bit stodgy, slow, bad-handling and short on image compared with more glamorous Triumphs.
Just check my profile - my 'possibilities' are:
Toyota MR2 MK1 (reliable but parts very expensive if it does go wrong)
Triumph TR7 (mechanically tough by now but rusts. Parts cheap though)
Fiat X1/9 (see TR7)
Triumph Spitfire (very solid mechanicals but rusty body but at least panels are available new)
BMW E21 3-Series (Bulletproof mechanicals and very reliable but could get rusty. Most expensive for insurance)
Fiat 131 Miafiori (on the list because my Dad had one. Rusted to oblivion but I just can't let it go! Very fast)
Ford Capri Laser (easiest to find parts for, but hard to keep tidy and non-unleaded engines suffer valve seat recession)
Mitsubishi Colt Sapporo (Nothing to go wrong, but impossible to find)
So as you see, Triumph are numerically on top, but what I'll probably do is buy a copy of my local Auto Trader and buy the best of this selection I can find locally. I'm just sussing out buying knowledge and general opinion right now.
Twincam16 said:
The engine in the Spitfire is tougher, cheaper to maintain
That's rubbish I'm afraid. The Triumph straight six is at least as reliable as the 1500 and probably more so. Also you car forget any notion that Spits being built in '81 makes them any better than GT6s built in '73 - they rust just as fast if not faster (leaky and made from crap steel).
I kept my TR7 for a long 2 months before the noise and uncomfortable driving position meant it had to go. I would certainly recommend living with one before spending too much creating a motorsport replica.
Have you considered a Lancia Beta Coupe. Probably the best all round package of power /handling /comfort /RELIABILITY /sound I ever owned. Even if it did only 22mpg!
Still some to be had - dirt cheap.
They are FWD but fantastic neutral handling.
Mark.
Have you considered a Lancia Beta Coupe. Probably the best all round package of power /handling /comfort /RELIABILITY /sound I ever owned. Even if it did only 22mpg!
Still some to be had - dirt cheap.
They are FWD but fantastic neutral handling.
Mark.
Honestly, having been the classic route versus the cheap recent car route I'd pick the cheap recent car. That is, particularly if you do not have a lot of money, and do not want to spend every spare moment you have tinkering with the car.
I owned a Dolomite Sprint. It was very highly modified, had full rollcage, seats, harnesses, road rally tyres, LSD, Adjustable seat Bilsteins and a very modified engine. I used to drive it every day and there was always something that needed attention at the weekend.
I then bought a brand new Fiesta Diesel to get me to work. Best move I ever made. It was totally reliable, super economical, just really great transport. That meant I could actually have the odd weekend being sociable etc.
Old cars are a good hobby, but when they become a chore they are misery. You are asking for a 'chore' car.
I owned a Dolomite Sprint. It was very highly modified, had full rollcage, seats, harnesses, road rally tyres, LSD, Adjustable seat Bilsteins and a very modified engine. I used to drive it every day and there was always something that needed attention at the weekend.
I then bought a brand new Fiesta Diesel to get me to work. Best move I ever made. It was totally reliable, super economical, just really great transport. That meant I could actually have the odd weekend being sociable etc.
Old cars are a good hobby, but when they become a chore they are misery. You are asking for a 'chore' car.
GavinPearson said:
Honestly, having been the classic route versus the cheap recent car route I'd pick the cheap recent car. That is, particularly if you do not have a lot of money, and do not want to spend every spare moment you have tinkering with the car.
I owned a Dolomite Sprint. It was very highly modified, had full rollcage, seats, harnesses, road rally tyres, LSD, Adjustable seat Bilsteins and a very modified engine. I used to drive it every day and there was always something that needed attention at the weekend.
I then bought a brand new Fiesta Diesel to get me to work. Best move I ever made. It was totally reliable, super economical, just really great transport. That meant I could actually have the odd weekend being sociable etc.
Old cars are a good hobby, but when they become a chore they are misery. You are asking for a 'chore' car.
I see what you're getting at but let's be honest here, the Dolomite Sprint was phenomenal when on-song but very difficult to keep in tune.
You may have noticed the MK1 MR2 on the top of the list - that, to me, is a 'cheap, reliable, recent car' and it'd be the one I'd ideally be after.
I can't stand the thought of getting a boring car. I'm afraid a brand new Fiesta diesel just isn't worth anything to me and I couldn't justify any money on it.
Problem with buying 'new cheap reliable' cars is that you get 'locked in' to a cycle of depreciation and you end up losing huge chunks of money and end up lumbered with something incredibly dull that you can't get off your hands and 'move up' without paying a lot out again.
TBH I'm on this thread because I'm inquiring about Triumphs, sussing out their viability. I'll be honest I'm going off the idea now, I'm warming to the MR2 and the BMW 3-Series.
As for 'tinkering', hate to sound sad but that's sort-of what I'm after. As I'm going to be owning classic cars in the future I might as well get started now.
The Fiat X1/9 and Miafiori are on the list because my Dad knows Fiats upside down and inside out. I could get them fixed faster via him than at a garage.
The Triumphs turned up on the list because they were in my price bracket in the magazines and their running cost ratings were good.
As for the Capri and the Colt, they're tough old beasts. You'll see Capris in daily use every day - why not join the happy owners?
Sorry Gavin but the thought of buying the sort of car my Mum would be pleased with makes my skin crawl.
Edited to say: At the moment there's an 1983 E21 316 Bauer Cabriolet in my local Auto Trader for £1.5k. Wonderfully rakish looks, daily reliability, low running costs, good handling and it really can't go down in value if it's in the condition the owner claims it's in.
That's what I mean by everyday reliability. And it's far more interesting than a diesel Fiesta.
>> Edited by Twincam16 on Monday 2nd May 10:01
Just checked the PH classifieds as well - Daily-use MK1 MR2 FSH £1395, Ford Capri 1600 Laser, restored and dry-stored £1k.
>> Edited by Twincam16 on Monday 2nd May 10:07
Amazingly the engine is the most reliable part on a Dolomite Sprint.
I once read that it was an engine looking for a car, and it's so true.
I suppose much of my tinkering was related to developing the suspension, geometry mods, repainting (bit like the Forth Bridge if you don't want to weigh it down with a ton of underseal). But anyway, if you're going to buy a classic car, you've now been warned.
As regards the car type I think you should go to some classic car trackdays and get a feel for what they are like under conditions on the limit.
Have you considered a well sorted Mk 2 Escort? They are very tuneable and cheap to insure.
I once read that it was an engine looking for a car, and it's so true.
I suppose much of my tinkering was related to developing the suspension, geometry mods, repainting (bit like the Forth Bridge if you don't want to weigh it down with a ton of underseal). But anyway, if you're going to buy a classic car, you've now been warned.
As regards the car type I think you should go to some classic car trackdays and get a feel for what they are like under conditions on the limit.
Have you considered a well sorted Mk 2 Escort? They are very tuneable and cheap to insure.
Well, I'm going to speak up in favour of classics, having run virtually nothing else until recently (and my S4 is heading that way too). Two things, really. First - get one that's been looked after. Unless you want to do a restoration, don't buy a project. There is NO SUCH THING as an easy resoration. Having bought a car that's been looked after, look after it. Most thing that go wrong on old cars are the result of a simple lack of TLC - little things like keeping all the electrical connectors clean and tight, hoses checked and up to date, that sort of thing.
Second - drive it everyday, or as often as possible. There's nothing classics like less than not being driven.
Second - drive it everyday, or as often as possible. There's nothing classics like less than not being driven.
GavinPearson said:
Have you considered a well sorted Mk 2 Escort? They are very tuneable and cheap to insure.
Yes! That's the one I forgot to put on the list, especially the RS2000. I'd say a well-sorted Capri comes under that list. Also, I've driven a RWD Escort on track before so I know what they're like on the limit. Fix them with parts from Halfrauds too.
yertis said:
Well, I'm going to speak up in favour of classics, having run virtually nothing else until recently (and my S4 is heading that way too). Two things, really. First - get one that's been looked after. Unless you want to do a restoration, don't buy a project. There is NO SUCH THING as an easy resoration. Having bought a car that's been looked after, look after it. Most thing that go wrong on old cars are the result of a simple lack of TLC - little things like keeping all the electrical connectors clean and tight, hoses checked and up to date, that sort of thing.
Second - drive it everyday, or as often as possible. There's nothing classics like less than not being driven.
I concur entirely.
Thing is, I've been into classic cars since I was born pretty much. My Dad has always taken me to shows, taught me RWD mechanical basics and always encouraged me to be open-minded in regard to cars. He reckons I should get an X1/9.
Of course it would be driven regularly - it would be my only car.
As for restoration, well of course I'm not up to that which is why I'm after a car from the '80s - not old enough to be restoration age if it's the right car. A good, regularly-used car with RWD, good looks and simple mechanicals is what I'm after.
Twincam16 said:
Of course it would be driven regularly - it would be my only car.
"Daily driver" is a great idea - if you have back up transport for when it needs repairs / is waiting for parts etc.
Classics are great. Low running costs, cheap insurance and zeroish depreciation...... but they ain't anywhere near as reliable as modern cars.
If you live on a bus route it may be a viable option.
Mark.
bobble350 said:
Of course it would be driven regularly - it would be my only car.
"Daily driver" is a great idea - if you have back up transport for when it needs repairs / is waiting for parts etc.
Classics are great. Low running costs, cheap insurance and zeroish depreciation...... but they ain't anywhere near as reliable as modern cars.
If you live on a bus route it may be a viable option.
Mark.
Well this is one of the reasons why, unfortunately, I'm going off the idea of getting a Triumph and refocusing on Toyota, BMW, Ford and the Fiat X1/9. With the exception of a bit of rust here and there (which a bit of vigilance and some waxoyl will keep in check no probs), they'll soldier on for years reliably.
I checked out a couple of Practical Classics articles on both classics you can rely on, and classics you can use as your first and only car. I places my usual restrictions on them and it's these ones that came up.
Between the ages of 21 and 23 I owned and ran as daily drivers, a TR7 V8 Fixed Head and later a TR7 V8 Drop Top. I absolutely loved the two cars and invested far too much time, effort and money in them. But...that engine in that bodyshell does work very well, and the sight of Tony Pond hooning about on opposite lock...
Here are some pointers from my experience:
1) Ask yourself the question, "How long am I going to keep it?" These are "project" cars at this age. If you're going to be moving on in a couple of years I'd go for something more modern.
2) Do buy one that somebody else has invested lots of time, effort and money in - decent ones are out there - you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince.
3) Do get the bodyshell checked for rust - the mechanicals are relatively cheap compared to bodywork repair.
Here are some alternatives I'd consider on a limited budget:
1) Ford Escort Mk2 Harrier/Mexico/RS2000
2) MGB GT (with a V8 conversion at a later date)
3) Porsche 924S or 944
If you want further info about TR7V8's - PM me.
Ork.
Here are some pointers from my experience:
1) Ask yourself the question, "How long am I going to keep it?" These are "project" cars at this age. If you're going to be moving on in a couple of years I'd go for something more modern.
2) Do buy one that somebody else has invested lots of time, effort and money in - decent ones are out there - you have to kiss a lot of frogs to find a prince.
3) Do get the bodyshell checked for rust - the mechanicals are relatively cheap compared to bodywork repair.
Here are some alternatives I'd consider on a limited budget:
1) Ford Escort Mk2 Harrier/Mexico/RS2000
2) MGB GT (with a V8 conversion at a later date)
3) Porsche 924S or 944
If you want further info about TR7V8's - PM me.
Ork.
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