Help me adjust my tracking please?
Discussion
I've got an old, 2002 175k mile Saab 9-5 that I bought for £1000. I'm tackling as many maintenance jobs myself as possible for my own satisfaction.
The steering wheel is turned about 1cm to the right when driving in a straight line. Not such a problem, except that the driver's side front tyre gets warmer than the nearside tyre at speed. Both front tyres run warmer than the rears.
In normal driving the handling feels stable.
The old tyre that I just swapped for a winter tyre was slightly more worn towards the inner side of the tread. (3mm wear vs 4mm, perhaps.)
Pondering this, I've reached the conclusion that perhaps the offside tracking needs to be pulled in a bit to decrease the toe-in.
Before I break out the wd40 and tighten the offside track rod a half turn, can anybody spot a flaw in my plan? :-)
The steering wheel is turned about 1cm to the right when driving in a straight line. Not such a problem, except that the driver's side front tyre gets warmer than the nearside tyre at speed. Both front tyres run warmer than the rears.
In normal driving the handling feels stable.
The old tyre that I just swapped for a winter tyre was slightly more worn towards the inner side of the tread. (3mm wear vs 4mm, perhaps.)
Pondering this, I've reached the conclusion that perhaps the offside tracking needs to be pulled in a bit to decrease the toe-in.
Before I break out the wd40 and tighten the offside track rod a half turn, can anybody spot a flaw in my plan? :-)
threadlock said:
I've got an old, 2002 175k mile Saab 9-5 that I bought for £1000. I'm tackling as many maintenance jobs myself as possible for my own satisfaction.
The steering wheel is turned about 1cm to the right when driving in a straight line. Not such a problem, except that the driver's side front tyre gets warmer than the nearside tyre at speed. Both front tyres run warmer than the rears.
In normal driving the handling feels stable.
The old tyre that I just swapped for a winter tyre was slightly more worn towards the inner side of the tread. (3mm wear vs 4mm, perhaps.)
Pondering this, I've reached the conclusion that perhaps the offside tracking needs to be pulled in a bit to decrease the toe-in.
Before I break out the wd40 and tighten the offside track rod a half turn, can anybody spot a flaw in my plan? :-)
Sadly your whole knowledge of tracking and plan is completely flawed. The steering wheel is turned about 1cm to the right when driving in a straight line. Not such a problem, except that the driver's side front tyre gets warmer than the nearside tyre at speed. Both front tyres run warmer than the rears.
In normal driving the handling feels stable.
The old tyre that I just swapped for a winter tyre was slightly more worn towards the inner side of the tread. (3mm wear vs 4mm, perhaps.)
Pondering this, I've reached the conclusion that perhaps the offside tracking needs to be pulled in a bit to decrease the toe-in.
Before I break out the wd40 and tighten the offside track rod a half turn, can anybody spot a flaw in my plan? :-)
To be short:
Do a search on tracking as it's done to death every other week.
You can't have one wheel pointing in/out and the other not, tracking figures are from one wheel to the other, not from the centre outwards.
If you let go of the steering wheel when driving both driving wheels are tracking equal.
The problems you have is that the steering wheel is not aligned with (both) front wheels, in order to get this right you will have to move both of them the same way, also your tracking could well be out too.
You CANNOT track a car by feel or sight!
If your car is pulling to one side then it's something other than the tracking.
If you want to DIY it then buy some equipment and spend a day arsing about in the cold.
Me? I just take it to someone who has the correct equipment and knows what they are doing, £30 - £40? Why waste my time....
Edited by 226bhp on Tuesday 19th November 20:22
It is possible to set your tracking using string and a ruler but even a tightwad like me eventually splashed out on a set of gauges.
Even with the gauges tracking can often be a thankless PITA job, seized threads, repeatedly jacking the car up then driving it to settle the suspension, finding a truly flat surface, lying on cold wet concrete, finding weights for ballast and so on.
Tracking is a job like windscreen fitting that whilst possible to DIY only a nutter would bother trying without all proper gear.
Even with the gauges tracking can often be a thankless PITA job, seized threads, repeatedly jacking the car up then driving it to settle the suspension, finding a truly flat surface, lying on cold wet concrete, finding weights for ballast and so on.
Tracking is a job like windscreen fitting that whilst possible to DIY only a nutter would bother trying without all proper gear.
226bhp said:
You can't have one wheel pointing in/out and the other not, tracking figures are from one wheel to the other, not from the centre outwards.
If you let go of the steering wheel when driving both driving wheels are tracking equal.
Yes, I understand the mechanics of tracking.If you let go of the steering wheel when driving both driving wheels are tracking equal.
The car tracks straight if I let go of the wheel.
What I don't understand is why, if they're both tracking equally, one tyre gets warmer than the other and the tyre on that corner wears unevenly. Can you shed any light on that question?
226bhp said:
If you want to DIY it then buy some equipment and spend a day arsing about in the cold.
Me? I just take it to someone who has the correct equipment and knows what they are doing, £30 - £40? Why waste my time....
Two reasons: the personal satisfaction of doing a small job myself; and the fact that whenever I've had the tracking adjusted on previous cars, each garage had several stabs at it, usually leaving the steering wheel more badly aligned than it had been before they started. I have no confidence in the trained chimps that most garages seem to have operating the "high precision" laser alignment tools. I'm sure expert garages exist, but how many do I have to try before I find one that gets it right? The basis for this thread is that by applying a bit of logic to the symptoms it ought to be possible to improve things with a small adjustment. Maybe that premise is wrong, but I'm curious to understand why if so. Me? I just take it to someone who has the correct equipment and knows what they are doing, £30 - £40? Why waste my time....
threadlock said:
226bhp said:
You can't have one wheel pointing in/out and the other not, tracking figures are from one wheel to the other, not from the centre outwards.
If you let go of the steering wheel when driving both driving wheels are tracking equal.
Yes, I understand the mechanics of tracking.If you let go of the steering wheel when driving both driving wheels are tracking equal.
The car tracks straight if I let go of the wheel.
What I don't understand is why, if they're both tracking equally, one tyre gets warmer than the other and the tyre on that corner wears unevenly. Can you shed any light on that question?
226bhp said:
If you want to DIY it then buy some equipment and spend a day arsing about in the cold.
Me? I just take it to someone who has the correct equipment and knows what they are doing, £30 - £40? Why waste my time....
Two reasons: the personal satisfaction of doing a small job myself; and the fact that whenever I've had the tracking adjusted on previous cars, each garage had several stabs at it, usually leaving the steering wheel more badly aligned than it had been before they started. I have no confidence in the trained chimps that most garages seem to have operating the "high precision" laser alignment tools. I'm sure expert garages exist, but how many do I have to try before I find one that gets it right? The basis for this thread is that by applying a bit of logic to the symptoms it ought to be possible to improve things with a small adjustment. Maybe that premise is wrong, but I'm curious to understand why if so. Me? I just take it to someone who has the correct equipment and knows what they are doing, £30 - £40? Why waste my time....
Incorrect camber
Worn, bent or seized components
different tyres
You drove around a lot of roundabouts and RH bends before testing.
Maybe you could ask in your local section of PH for someone who is recommended?
Just moving the steering wheel in relation to the front wheels is easy enough, just adjust both rod ends the same amount till it lines up, but tracking takes an age to do DIY and (string method included!) the purchase of some equipment.
No-one ever checks for a slightly bent or buckled wheel before doing tracking, that can knock any results out straight away.
Given that it's an old car and you know a bit about what you're doing, I think you could try that experiment. You should put paint marks on the rod first so that you can go back to the original setting if you have to. BTW I think the steering wheel will be even more to the right if you toe in the right wheel more.
Less heat in the rear tyres is due to a lighter load. (Less weight, less braking, no steering forces) A heat difference across the axle is more unusual. The right tyre (warmer tyre) had more wear on the inside, was the left tyre more evenly worn? If the wear is only on the inside of the right tyre you should check out things like ball joints etc.
Less heat in the rear tyres is due to a lighter load. (Less weight, less braking, no steering forces) A heat difference across the axle is more unusual. The right tyre (warmer tyre) had more wear on the inside, was the left tyre more evenly worn? If the wear is only on the inside of the right tyre you should check out things like ball joints etc.
There was a thread about alignment methods recently in the Home Mechanics section;
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
A few options were listed, ranging from string & rulers to DIY devices. DIY the first time around will seem very time consuming but it's not black magic and quite possible to set the car up with string & ruler. From what you say it sounds like the tracking has already been adjusted by someone just winding one TRE out, which is why the steering wheel isn't aligned properly. Not an uncommon occurence, if you've got a queue of cars waiting then it's obviously easier/quicker to adjust at one side only and that's why it happens.
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
A few options were listed, ranging from string & rulers to DIY devices. DIY the first time around will seem very time consuming but it's not black magic and quite possible to set the car up with string & ruler. From what you say it sounds like the tracking has already been adjusted by someone just winding one TRE out, which is why the steering wheel isn't aligned properly. Not an uncommon occurence, if you've got a queue of cars waiting then it's obviously easier/quicker to adjust at one side only and that's why it happens.
Edited by b2hbm on Wednesday 20th November 06:43
Assuming the toe is correct then you can centralize the steering wheel by turning each side by exactly the same amount, one side in and the other out of course.
Which way they must be turned depends on whether the steering wheel is out clockwise or anticlockwise and whether the rack is in front of the wheels or behind. If you do this accurately then the tracking will not be altered, just the straight ahead position of the steering wheel.
Which way they must be turned depends on whether the steering wheel is out clockwise or anticlockwise and whether the rack is in front of the wheels or behind. If you do this accurately then the tracking will not be altered, just the straight ahead position of the steering wheel.
226bhp said:
If you think that adjusting one wheel will make things ok then I would say you don't completely understand tracking.
I can't say that adjusting one wheel will make it all perfect, but based on the symptoms I'm wondering whether a tweak might help. I'm definitely not claiming to be an expert, but the steering is a mechanical linkage and I can see the general effect that adjustments to the track rods will make to the geometry of that linkage. Whether those adjustments will improve the ultimate level of grip, scrub radius characteristics or whatever other subtleties, I have no idea. I'm only wondering about a very minor tweak to the setup, not a wide-ranging re-alignment of camber, toe-in etc.226bhp said:
If you are getting the symptoms you describe (and I have no idea how you are accurately measuring tyre temps) then as I said, something else is wrong, this could be:
Incorrect camber
Worn, bent or seized components
different tyres
You drove around a lot of roundabouts and RH bends before testing.
Incorrect camber
Worn, bent or seized components
different tyres
You drove around a lot of roundabouts and RH bends before testing.
I'm only assessing tyre temperatures with a touch of my hand. It's not exactly scientific! However, in all my years of driving I've never noticed a tyre temperature differential like this across an axle. Quite often after fast motorway runs I'll quickly touch the hubs and tyres to see if there are any hotspots. (This habit comes from running old classic cars over the years.)
Locknut said:
Less heat in the rear tyres is due to a lighter load. (Less weight, less braking, no steering forces) A heat difference across the axle is more unusual. The right tyre (warmer tyre) had more wear on the inside, was the left tyre more evenly worn? If the wear is only on the inside of the right tyre you should check out things like ball joints etc.
Yeah, the left tyre was worn fairly evenly.I replaced the offside balljoint last week because it was quite sloppy so I'm sure that wasn't helping things, but I didn't think to feel the tyres' temperature before doing that. (I'm mindful of the tyres because I got new winter tyres fitted last week.)
b2hbm said:
There was a thread about alignment methods recently in the Home Mechanics section;
http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Thanks for that - it seems I'm not alone in my experience of paying someone to adjust the tracking and being disappointed with the outcome. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a...
Was the steering wheel central before the balljoint was changed?. If it was, then herein lies the problem, someone must have previously adjusted the tracking to compensate for the worn suspension components (common) and now all is good the tracking is way out of adjustment hence the steering wheel being off centre. If the steering rack is not centralized the car may very well track ok in a straight line but the STEERING angles won't be, ie, one wheel scrubbing on cornering and getting warm.You would be as well to start again with it by first making sure all suspension + location points are in good order, disconnecting Both track rods, centralizing the steering wheel and making sure the rack + track rods + rod ends are all equal for a starting point and adjust equally from there. All Imo of course, hope you get it sorted.
If you know what you're doing then toe can be set up perfectly accurately by stringing, so providing you have some dishes/bearing plates to reduce friction on the front wheels tracking is a DIY job.
But you have to know what you're doing. Frankly if you have to ask on a forum then don't bother trying. No guide in the world will teach you (unless you're flipping awesome) and the way to learn is to do it over and over again.
Having tracked about 1000 cars in my relatively short time on this planet I can tell you that you don't want to f
k about giving it a go, as you will probably make it worse. That's if you manage to free off the track rods to change it at all.
But you have to know what you're doing. Frankly if you have to ask on a forum then don't bother trying. No guide in the world will teach you (unless you're flipping awesome) and the way to learn is to do it over and over again.
Having tracked about 1000 cars in my relatively short time on this planet I can tell you that you don't want to f
k about giving it a go, as you will probably make it worse. That's if you manage to free off the track rods to change it at all.A crooked steering wheel may also be the result of a bent steering arm (toe out on turns) which you are going to struggle with to measure on a DIY basis. Also fitting or replacing any suspension component should be followed by an alignment check not just a toe (tracking) check. It could be that the track rods need a tweak but so many things can cause a crooked steering wheel. As recommended above get some recommendations for someone that can do a good job local to you.
I would wager that if you succeed in correcting the steering so that the wheel sits straight, you will have actually made the total front axle toe worse in the process. You have already said the car feels fine to drive, and your method of checking the suspension tracking by testing the temperature of the tyres by hand is bunkus.
Front axle toe equalises itself across the axle which means, even if one tyre were 'scrubbing' and generating more heat, toe is not the cause. That is unfortunate for you because checking anything other than toe on a DIY basis is more difficult.
This is a job best left to a decent mechanic with a lazer alignment system.
Front axle toe equalises itself across the axle which means, even if one tyre were 'scrubbing' and generating more heat, toe is not the cause. That is unfortunate for you because checking anything other than toe on a DIY basis is more difficult.
This is a job best left to a decent mechanic with a lazer alignment system.
Gassing Station | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff