Winter tyres vol 2

[popeyewhite]

Munter said:

See edit above. Will you defend that tyre as being good in M or S based on it having M+S rating? Really?

If multiple sites state an increase in the factors I've mentioned improve a tyre's performance then yes, of course. Certainly above subjective claims made on the internet. Now if you were to argue the actual efficacy of adding tiny gaps to road tyres (I can't see your pic) then I'd agree. However the bigger the gaps get you can actually see the tyre holding onto snow or chucking dollops of mud off!

Munter said:

Last time I looked it up. It's just % groove vs % rubber in the contact patch/surface of the tyre. Which way back when might have been a good indicator between a road tyre and an mud/snow type tyre. In the modern world however when we're not using Goodyear Grand Prix(s) any more... It's bks as a way to decide of a tyre will have any M+S performance.

I understand your argument and agree to a certain extent. In some road tyres the difference between M+S patterns and non- M+S is minimal, so performance would probabky be negligible. Tyres such as A/ts however, which the poster with the RR probably uses, have much wider gaps between tread blocks.

[Munter]

popeyewhite said:

I understand your argument and agree to a certain extent. In some road tyres the difference between M+S patterns and non- M+S is minimal, so performance would probabky be negligible. Tyres such as A/ts however, which the poster with the RR probably uses, have much wider gaps between tread blocks.

A/Ts might. But that's not the point being made.

The poster specific ally mentioned Mud and Snow. I checked the manufacture site and there it is, the M+S rating proudly displayed as some kind of indication of the tyres performance in Mud and Snow. Which, it just isn't really. I thought it wise to head that off at the pass for people.

M+S is bks. It tells you nothing other than the manufacturer wanted to put that mark on that tyre.

Other markings on the same tyre may be worthwhile. But M+S. Nope. It's bks.

[anonymous-user]

Munter said:

popeyewhite said:

I understand your argument and agree to a certain extent. In some road tyres the difference between M+S patterns and non- M+S is minimal, so performance would probabky be negligible. Tyres such as A/ts however, which the poster with the RR probably uses, have much wider gaps between tread blocks.

A/Ts might. But that's not the point being made.

The poster specific ally mentioned Mud and Snow. I checked the manufacture site and there it is, the M+S rating proudly displayed as some kind of indication of the tyres performance in Mud and Snow. Which, it just isn't really. I thought it wise to head that off at the pass for people.

M+S is bks. It tells you nothing other than the manufacturer wanted to put that mark on that tyre.

Other markings on the same tyre may be worthwhile. But M+S. Nope. It's bks.

I take it you aren't a fan of an M+S tyre then?

[popeyewhite]

Munter said:

M+S is bks. It tells you nothing other than the manufacturer wanted to put that mark on that tyre.

Other markings on the same tyre may be worthwhile. But M+S. Nope. It's bks.

Once again, M+S symbol denotes greater space between tread blocks. The greater the space, the greater the amount of snow picked up so grip improves: and the greater the expulsion of mud from the tyre so again grip improves. I'm not sure how you can claim this isn't true. Rather - I think your gripe is with manufacturers who disingenuously place the M+S symbol on tyres when the tread is only a tiny bit different from standard, and thus performance wouldn't really change.

[FiF]

I think this argument about M&S tyres is a bit of a red herring. In my experience an M&S tyre, aka knobbly, will be better in mud than normal tyres and better than winter tyres. In snow, as in relatively fresh snow it will be better than normal tyres but not better than winter tyres. In other winter conditions e.g. ice, compacted polished snow, cold clear wet tarmac there will just be no contest, winter tyres every time.

As always concentrating on just one situation and pronouncing or inferring therefore THIS is the best solution across the normal wide range of conditions is just being either misleading or even disingenuous.

[anonymous-user]

FiF said:

I think this argument about M&S tyres is a bit of a red herring. In my experience an M&S tyre, aka knobbly, will be better in mud than normal tyres and better than winter tyres. In snow, as in relatively fresh snow it will be better than normal tyres but not better than winter tyres. In other winter conditions e.g. ice, compacted polished snow, cold clear wet tarmac there will just be no contest, winter tyres every time.

As always concentrating on just one situation and pronouncing or inferring therefore THIS is the best solution across the normal wide range of conditions is just being either misleading or even disingenuous.

Nobody is concentrating on one situation. It appears more general that that.

[FiF]

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

FiF said:

I think this argument about M&S tyres is a bit of a red herring. In my experience an M&S tyre, aka knobbly, will be better in mud than normal tyres and better than winter tyres. In snow, as in relatively fresh snow it will be better than normal tyres but not better than winter tyres. In other winter conditions e.g. ice, compacted polished snow, cold clear wet tarmac there will just be no contest, winter tyres every time.

As always concentrating on just one situation and pronouncing or inferring therefore THIS is the best solution across the normal wide range of conditions is just being either misleading or even disingenuous.

Nobody is concentrating on one situation. It appears more general that that.

Some are being more general, some not.

[Munter]

popeyewhite said:

Once again, M+S symbol denotes greater space between tread blocks.

No it doesn't. It just means there's a certain percentage of the face that's given over to grooves. You could have more closer together, or a few big ones vertically if you fancy. It certainly doesn't mean the tyre is any use in mud or snow.

It's also got nothing to do with "knobbly" tyres. Other than they would qualify.

It's just outdated and bks. I can't quite believe anybody would try to say otherwise, but there's one born every minute I guess.

[CustardOnChips]

Kawasicki said:

kiethton said:

I fitted a set of Nokian winters to my Exige a few weeks ago, not sure if it’s due to the pressures being a little high but my god are they awful. The AD08R’s that we’re on there before would have more grip in the same conditions (c3* and greasy) - I was getting wheel spin on cam changes in 2nd/3rd and its a NA car!

Tempted to say it was a bad experiment and go back to my tack-biased summer tyres which are materially grippier.

Some winter tyres are bad...some don't suit the style of vehicle they're fitted too...and finally some winter tyres don't suit particular driving styles.

There are no guarantees!

Are they new? I thought the same when I put Conti winters on my M3. After a few hundred miles they became fantastic. They were absolutely brilliant on the awful muddy roads where I live then in the bit of snow we occasionally had.

I've just put a set of all seasons on my 535d and they have done the same. They were awful for a few hundred miles but seem to be getting better. They certainly handle standing water on the A14 better than the standard BMW rubber.

[popeyewhite]

Munter said:

No it doesn't.

First Google hit of 'M+S tyres meaning':
"The M+S symbol on tyres sidewall means that the tyres have performance capabilities for both mud and snow conditions. ... M & S tyres generally contain solid grooves and the tread blocks are spaced far apart than those on regular tyres"

This really isn't very important and I understand your argument about false claims by manufacturers but the fact remains the basic design of M+S tyres is more grooves which means greater space between tread blocks. Instead of just being churlish perhaps you could say what you think M+S tyre design entails? Nothing? What?

[BaldOldMan]

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

BaldOldMan said:

RicksAlfas said:

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

The M+S tyres (Pirelli) on my old Range Rover I found were brilliant in the snow and winter weather. So your post is incorrect I'm afraid.

For balance, the M+S tyres (Goodyear) on my old Range Rover were absolutely lethal in snow and winter weather.
The M+S label in isolation is absolutely no indication that the tyres will be good in winter.

Is the correct answer

Afraid not. Unless of course you had the same model and year Range Rover as Rick, with the same tyres at the same stage of wear and drove back to back in the same test conditions. Otherwise it's impossible to come to your conclusion.

All I can say is that the Pirellis on mine were very good in winter.

I bolded the relevant bit for you

Your experience is a bit like saying I smoked 80 per day with no problems, therefore I can conclude smoking isn't bad for you.

I've had FFRR's for about 20 years with many different tyres - on the L322 the Scorpions were my favourite all rounder. On the L405 the Verde's are also a pretty good compromise.

On my L405 I run Conti's - I have a set of summers & a set of winters - the tread pattern is]very similar, both are M+S, but the Conti Winter Contacts are sooooo much better this time of year for where I live

Here's the 2 back to back - winter's on the right.

[anonymous-user]

BaldOldMan said:

I bolded the relevant bit for you

Your experience is a bit like saying I smoked 80 per day with no problems, therefore I can conclude smoking isn't bad for you.

Nope, I posted about my own individual experience. Others may find similar or not but I certainly won't make any presumptions on their behalf.

[BaldOldMan]

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

BaldOldMan said:

I bolded the relevant bit for you

Your experience is a bit like saying I smoked 80 per day with no problems, therefore I can conclude smoking isn't bad for you.

Nope, I posted about my own individual experience. Others may find similar or not but I certainly won't make any presumptions on their behalf.

You actually tried to correct another poster - when he was in fact the one who was right

I appreciate that it's PH, so no-one can possibly be wrong........

ruprechtmonkeyboy said:

The M+S tyres (Pirelli) on my old Range Rover I found were brilliant in the snow and winter weather. So your post is incorrect I'm afraid.

[popeyewhite]

BaldOldMan said:

You actually tried to correct another poster - when he was in fact the one who was right

No, he wasn't, actually. On a couple of levels.
And you yourself posted about how M+S tyres improved performance in mud and snow (see p.255 treadblocks etc).

Can we move on please?

[BaldOldMan]

Move on to what ?

It's the most common & basic mistake when talking about winter tyres and should be corrected.

This statement is 100% correct - unless your entire winter is spent exclusively driving on freshly fallen snow -

RicksAlfas said:

The M+S label in isolation is absolutely no indication that the tyres will be good in winter.

What I said agrees with that.

BaldOldMan said:

M+S usually indicates an open tread block pattern that allows the tyre to self clear mud or snow rather than it clogging up the tread.

It’s nothing to do with how it performs in the cold, wet, ice or even compacted snow.

In fact the best tyres for clearing mud & snow are appalling in other conditions as they are what we used to call knobbly - like mountain bike tyres.

[popeyewhite]

BaldOldMan said:

Move on to what ?

It's the etc etc

Yawn, 'bye.

[kiethton]

CustardOnChips said:

Kawasicki said:

kiethton said:

I fitted a set of Nokian winters to my Exige a few weeks ago, not sure if it’s due to the pressures being a little high but my god are they awful. The AD08R’s that we’re on there before would have more grip in the same conditions (c3* and greasy) - I was getting wheel spin on cam changes in 2nd/3rd and its a NA car!

Tempted to say it was a bad experiment and go back to my tack-biased summer tyres which are materially grippier.

Some winter tyres are bad...some don't suit the style of vehicle they're fitted too...and finally some winter tyres don't suit particular driving styles.

There are no guarantees!

Are they new? I thought the same when I put Conti winters on my M3. After a few hundred miles they became fantastic. They were absolutely brilliant on the awful muddy roads where I live then in the bit of snow we occasionally had.

I've just put a set of all seasons on my 535d and they have done the same. They were awful for a few hundred miles but seem to be getting better. They certainly handle standing water on the A14 better than the standard BMW rubber.

Not new, too old if anything

However, I took the car out today and as I half suspected the pressures were too high - the supermarket pump over-estimated by c20% versus my gauge. I dropped them below initial intentions, to account for the higher load rating, and they’re now materially better. I have noticed that they need balancing however...

[BaldOldMan]

Which Nokians ?

Not all are good on UK roads, some of their winter tyres are designed for ice - third video is interesting if you've not already seen it.

300bhp/ton said:

Some useful videos here that everyone should find informative

ABS takes longer to stop on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fge_m9u864k

4wd vs 2wd stopping distances on snow/ice:
https://youtu.be/fMHSBXjiyac

Difference between ice, snow & winter tyres. And how some tyre makers enhance test results:
https://youtu.be/21gnGy4ltOw

[FiF]

BaldOldMan said:

Which Nokians ?

It's the old story, devil is in the detail. Just like the earlier comment from someone saying "My Pirellis etc..."

Which ones? Do Pirelli actually make a pure mud and snow st shoveller? Maybe the rally focussed KM is nearest, but unlikely to be fitted to a Range Rover, so more likely to be an all terrain/all weather the all terrain being marked M&S but also TPMS. Lousy wet road grip though, rated E.

[Ron99]

FiF said:

…... Lousy wet road grip though, rated E......

Rated E for wet grip under the specified test (basically a warm, wet road).
Possibly very different on a cold wet road.
A good example being Jon's recent test where the 'B'-wet-rated CrossClimate+ stopped better on a cold wet road than the 'A'-wet-rated Conti Premium Contact.