Is it alignment or something else ????
Discussion
SlimJim16v said:
If that's how it was after the work, it must've been s
t before, or possibly you were ripped off, as not impressed with the settings.
Front toe is much better, it's not toeing out now.
There is a difference in front camber, with the nearside being more, which will be exagerated by road camber and the rear toe will make it crab as there is difference between L and R.
I see no major issues though, so any possible problem won't be alignment.
Edited because I didn't read properly and thought this was before and after the work,
Yeah the printouts are from me taking it to somewhere with a Hunter system to verify the work the previous guy had done ( the invoice.)t before, or possibly you were ripped off, as not impressed with the settings.Front toe is much better, it's not toeing out now.
There is a difference in front camber, with the nearside being more, which will be exagerated by road camber and the rear toe will make it crab as there is difference between L and R.
I see no major issues though, so any possible problem won't be alignment.
Edited because I didn't read properly and thought this was before and after the work,
Edited by SlimJim16v on Wednesday 10th January 23:40
the first printout was showing what he had given the car back to me after having it for a day and a half and taking just over a grand for.
the second printout was the hunter alignment guys fixing the toe but unable to do anything with the back.
The part i don't get is why the rear toe is still out ? i took it the shim work that was done was to fix the toe on the rear and that once it was set it would be unadjustable...
but the toe has moved at the rear from the first printout to the second...
It isn't the worst to drive... it's just the front end lean that bothers me the most... if i drive down the same road i feel the camber more on the drivers side than i do on the passengers front side.
But i do have that camber kit installed at the front so i'm gonna get them to level it out at the front and see if that makes the difference
Edited by fendertele on Thursday 11th January 00:01
Edited by fendertele on Thursday 11th January 00:09
GreenV8S said:
The explanations you're giving of what you feel make no sense. I find it hard to believe you were charged a grand for an alignment adjustment but surely this shows you that you can easily spend a lot of money changing stuff without solving whatever problem you think you have, if you can't explain what the problem is.
Have any of these people who worked on the car driven it with you and agreed there is a problem, and been able to explain what problem they think there is?
a grand for all the work that was needed to correct the alignment issue is posted above.Have any of these people who worked on the car driven it with you and agreed there is a problem, and been able to explain what problem they think there is?
I actually never went into any detail of my symptoms, the finance company did all the booking etc and just said customers car has been out of alignment since he got it can you have a look and see whats out and how it can be rectified.
Maybe i'm not explaining it very well.. i have a single lane road for example that leads to my house that crowns.
So i take the same road leaving and returning.. and I've noticed i feel the camber much more on the front drivers side returning than i did on the front passengers side leaving... my drivers side leans more into the cambered road than the passengers side does when it passes it on the way out,.
Forgot to mention this is only at the front i feel no difference at the rear.
Edited by fendertele on Thursday 11th January 01:40
Edited by fendertele on Thursday 11th January 01:44
Fastpedeller said:
A daft suggestion....... All the tyres are 'this side out' correctly?
lol now there's a question I couldn't tell you, i'd need to check as he put the new tyres on before the alignment then put back on the wheel covers and cable tied them.right if I parked my car up on a road that was crowning the back of the car would not lean into the camber of the road the way the front of the car does and it is more noticeable on the drivers side parked than if the passengers side was parked in the cambered road.
I have checked my tyres about 20 times now I even bought one of those little pressure gauges with the needle to make sure all tyres are sitting 2.5 bar as recommended on the cars sticker.
when i'm driving it feels like all the weight is on the front drivers side... like I weigh 40 stone or something and the car wants to ever so slightly steer to the right also but I believe it is due to this problem and not the steer ahead as from the printout the toe is bang on.
could it be that extra camber on the front passengers side possibly ?
PositronicRay said:
They won't have aligned the steering wheel by removing and refitting on a different spline. If they had then the steering angle sensor wouldn't be aligned and this would introduce an ESP fault.
It all sounds very odd TBH, a finance co would refer you back to a main dealer, not an alignment specialist. If the main dealer say's it's all within manufacturers tolerances then case closed.
I never bought the car from the main dealership I got it from a third party and they didn't want to swap it as they didn't deem the alignment issue as a fault and wanted the chance to rectify it... everytime they sent it to be aligned it came back still feeling out, I kept pushing and they just weren't playing ball the car is for business use so I had no option but to use it as I needed to start making money... but by doing so I knew any chance of a swap was out the window as the mileage was clocking up.It all sounds very odd TBH, a finance co would refer you back to a main dealer, not an alignment specialist. If the main dealer say's it's all within manufacturers tolerances then case closed.
I then contacted the finance company and they suggested I take it to a proper wheel alignment/geometry set up specialist and that's where they took over and booked it into him to do the shimming/camber kit etc... and he reported back to them that the car is now fixed so I no longer have the finance company helping because as far as they are concerned the car is now fixed and it's no longer an issue.
So despite this I then took it to have it double checked on the hunter system( the printouts above and from what a few folk have said the back end is off causing crabbing ?) So I don't know what to make of it ... he says its bang on... but the prinout says it's still out..
This is the first car I've ever bought so i'm not that clued up on cars except driving them.
I've to take the car back to him in a 1000 miles to makes sure it's still okay and nothing has moved etc... so hopefully then I can bring it up with him... but I was just hoping I could have an idea what to say rather than explain the leaning thing that as you can all agree isn't making much sense.
Edited by fendertele on Thursday 11th January 17:00
Fastpedeller said:
I'm getting lost with this...... What do you mean by "he put the new tyres on before the alignment". It's a new car? If he took the wheels off, he would have put them back on, but he wouldn't have removed the tyres. I'm just wondering (it's a very long shot) if one (or more) were incorrectly fitted when it was manufactured.
I had done nearly 8000 miles before the work got done and the 4 tyres that were on it were wearing unevenly, so I had 4 new tyres put on the same day I got all the work done.GreenV8S said:
This is starting to sound like something that could be pinned down to actual symptoms.
If the car is parked on a surface which is not level from side to side, the car should remain more or less parallel with the road so the body will lean to one side. Is this what you're referring to?
When you say the back doesn't lean the way the front does, do you mean that the bodywork is twisted? If not, what are you saying?
Basically... if I reverse into the uneven surface so that passengers side was onside that drains I wouldn't feel the camber at all.... but if I drove straight into the parking space so the drivers side was on the side that drains I would feel the car leaning/dipping much more than I should at the front end... almost like the front right tyre was flatter than the other 3 tires.If the car is parked on a surface which is not level from side to side, the car should remain more or less parallel with the road so the body will lean to one side. Is this what you're referring to?
When you say the back doesn't lean the way the front does, do you mean that the bodywork is twisted? If not, what are you saying?
Ignore the crap paint shop skills lol!
Edited by fendertele on Thursday 11th January 17:48
Edited by fendertele on Thursday 11th January 17:50
And Btw I have got out and looked at the car when it's parked up and there is no noticeable difference in ride height when the passengers side is parked at the drain side or the drivers side is parked at the drain side... it is purely how the car feels with both tryes coming into contact with the road... that's why i'm leaning ( no pun intended) with it being the difference in camber with the front wheels.
E-bmw said:
This makes me wonder if you understand what camber is?
Negatives where the to of the tyre leans in and the bottom leans out /- \ positive is other way round \-/ ?If both sides have negative but one side slightly more negative than the other. / - | this is what hoping I was experiencing.
Managed to relieve my issue a little with a very unorthodox method.
Whenever I've been driving because of how the car feels I've had this urge when driving straight to throw/yank the steering wheel hard to the right and then quickly recenter it
When I was on a quiet bit of road I did it a couple of times and when I straightened back up it had improved.
Cheers for all the advice n input.
Whenever I've been driving because of how the car feels I've had this urge when driving straight to throw/yank the steering wheel hard to the right and then quickly recenter it
When I was on a quiet bit of road I did it a couple of times and when I straightened back up it had improved.
Cheers for all the advice n input.
GreenV8S said:
When you say it 'over exaggerates' the camber, what is it you're feeling? I mean, is it feedback you're getting through the steering wheel, or through the seat, or what? Based on your drawings below I'm wondering whether the issue is that the seat is not level in the car or you are sitting off center in the seat and not actually upright when the car is level.
Through the seat!!!! I thought I was going crazy with this feeling... SlimJim16v said:
With suspension alignment, without any initial readings, how do you know anything's wrong. Then with no after, how do you know anything's been done. I wouldn't be happy spending £1k like that. In fact with those readings you have now, I'd be taking it back.
That right rear toe changing like that isn't right either. Maybe someting loose, or worn?
I spent over £1k getting the supension alignment sorted on my old RAV4, it came back spot on, to my own specific stttings and tolerances.
I just read so many good reviews that he did rally cars etc... And everyone saying they wouldn't take their car anywhere else that I thought it was a sure thing going to him.That right rear toe changing like that isn't right either. Maybe someting loose, or worn?
I spent over £1k getting the supension alignment sorted on my old RAV4, it came back spot on, to my own specific stttings and tolerances.
When he was adamant that it was perfectly aligned that's when I took it for the hunter read out to verify it was as good as he said.
The rear toe moving worries me also as I'm certain the whole shim work he did at the rear was to shift the toe and or camber as it was out and non adjustable.
I am now driving my car and it feels a lot better but I am obviously wondering what has shifted with me doing this manoeuvre ?
E-bmw said:
Correct, and then you keep saying you "feel the camber on the car" How do you "feel camber" when driving a car?
This may not be the actual problem it's just how i'd describe it... it feels like a flat tire but the tires are all the correct pressure.. so when I say I feel the camber I mean whatever side it has shifted too is the side I feel the road crowning more than the other side..For example last night at the start of my shift I felt whatever the issue is i on the drivers right side... and even though the car drives straight.. because of what i'm feeling I was constantly edging the steering wheel ever so slightly to the left... and by the end of my shift at some point it had shifted to the left side and I felt myself now ever so slightly edging the steering wheel to the right.
obviously I don't know anything about how the front end is connected but it feels like something moving/slipping between the front two wheels that is causing this sensation when I'm driving... I hit nothing of note last night and was very careful in my driving... the only thing I can think that would cause this shift is sharp cornering.
jsf said:
get someone to check the steering rack isn't loose in its mountings.
could this be the problem ? what would cause the steering rack to come loose on such a new car ? i'm trying to think of any other symptoms that could be helpful..
there is one but I can't say for sure if it's new or has always been there and i'm just noticing.
But when i'm driving at speeds over 30 possibly 40... there is a vibrating/knocking coming through the pedals and also if I sit my braking foot on the drivers floor I can feel it through the floor panel. As far as noise I don't think there is much or at least not enough to hear it over the cars engine.
So it's not so much noisy but the feeling of something slightly knocking about coming through the floor and pedals.
and there is zero vibration through the steering wheel, it is all contained to the floor/pedals area.
I hadn't brought this up before as it didn't really bother me and thought it was the bumps on the road etc vibrating through but then I noticed I felt it on a smooth motorway at speed but again it wasn't severe to effect my driving.
Edited by fendertele on Friday 12th January 17:53
Edited by fendertele on Friday 12th January 18:03
jsf said:
It's not unheard of that the steering rack moves in its mountings. You often have it with older cars where the bushes get tired, but I've seen it with newer cars that only have C clamps rather than bolt through bush mountings and the clamps have come loose or the bushes are faulty and undersize.
A way to test it is find somewhere you can load the car up through a long fast right hand corner followed by a straight, then load it up through a long fast left corner, then a straight. If the steering wheel position in straight ahead moves after each turn, the rack is moving in its mounts.
Its also worth checking you don't have a broken driveshaft joint or differential unit. Does the car have an LSD?
If you jack one driven wheel off the ground, spin the wheel by hand and check the driveshaft is turning with the wheel and there is no knocking coming from the joints, check both inside and outside driveshaft joints turn and you get no noises. Do the same on the other side.
You shouldn't be feeling any vibration through the floor.
Check all 4 tyres are the same size, make and type, I've seen a car with brand new tyres that had odd sizes fitted, it does happen.
Well if you read back a few posts I mentioned the urge of wanting ... while cornering to yank the steering wheel a little bit more than the turn needs then straighten it back up fast... it seemed to fix the problem ever so slightly... and when the problem shifts to the other side I want to do the same thing while cornering the other way...A way to test it is find somewhere you can load the car up through a long fast right hand corner followed by a straight, then load it up through a long fast left corner, then a straight. If the steering wheel position in straight ahead moves after each turn, the rack is moving in its mounts.
Its also worth checking you don't have a broken driveshaft joint or differential unit. Does the car have an LSD?
If you jack one driven wheel off the ground, spin the wheel by hand and check the driveshaft is turning with the wheel and there is no knocking coming from the joints, check both inside and outside driveshaft joints turn and you get no noises. Do the same on the other side.
You shouldn't be feeling any vibration through the floor.
Check all 4 tyres are the same size, make and type, I've seen a car with brand new tyres that had odd sizes fitted, it does happen.
So what you are mentioning about the cornering and straightening up is what I naturally have the urge to do while driving because of how the car feels.
for example when I feel the problem on the drivers side driving straight I want to through the car sharply to the left and quickly straighten back up to relieve the issue....
and at times when doing a full locked u turn it can also shift it when I straighten back up.
As far as the other stuff I really wish I could tell you more but i'm a total noob when it comes to anything outside of regular servicing... all four tyres are however the same make and size.
Edited by fendertele on Friday 12th January 18:32
jsf said:
do what i suggest then come back.
Okay i'm about to do a long shift tonight with the car with plenty of chances on the motorway to test it out.When you say load up you I'm guessing you mean accelerate into the corner at speed ?
I may not be able to do this for you at a great speed... as with this issue whatever side i'm feeling the problem on I tend to slow when cornering one way as it feels unstable.
when I feel it on the left side.... taking long right corners feel unsafe at speed, but long left corners feel great
when I feel it on the right side.... taking long left corners feel unsafe at speed but long right corners feel great.
but I will give it a go and look to see if the steering wheel changes place when I straighten up.
Hey just to let you all know I've booked it back in with guy that did the work for next wed so will be able to see how things are from then on.
Last night I found some relief by doing two things... when I was taking sharp round abouts, I would fling the car round it hard and straighten back up sharply and that seems to shift it back to feeling normal...
and later in the night I had to make a 6 point turn in a tight cal-de-sac with a lot of turning the wheel while not moving... and by the time I had finished the manouvere and got out of the tight spot it had again made it feel even better to drive.
So I will mention to him that something is shifting.. and can change by doing the above mentioned manoeuvres... and hopefully he can figure it out and doesn't look at me like i'm crazy lol
Last night I found some relief by doing two things... when I was taking sharp round abouts, I would fling the car round it hard and straighten back up sharply and that seems to shift it back to feeling normal...
and later in the night I had to make a 6 point turn in a tight cal-de-sac with a lot of turning the wheel while not moving... and by the time I had finished the manouvere and got out of the tight spot it had again made it feel even better to drive.
So I will mention to him that something is shifting.. and can change by doing the above mentioned manoeuvres... and hopefully he can figure it out and doesn't look at me like i'm crazy lol
Just a little update decided to get the rear axle replaced as the shim job moved out of spec.. took it to seat dealership and they needed to replace the rear axle and wheel bearings.
They don't have an alignment machine so when I left them I took it to see how it was looking.
The front was out but that's no biggy got it put back in spec... However the rear toe despite being in spec is exactly the same as before the rear axle being replaced... Too much toe to the right.
So now when I drive it it feels pretty much same as before replacing the rear axle... If the SW is centred the car drives to the right and there is also a slight pull to the left??
Tried rotating tyres but made no difference... Anything stand out which could cause a slight pull to the left?
They don't have an alignment machine so when I left them I took it to see how it was looking.
The front was out but that's no biggy got it put back in spec... However the rear toe despite being in spec is exactly the same as before the rear axle being replaced... Too much toe to the right.
So now when I drive it it feels pretty much same as before replacing the rear axle... If the SW is centred the car drives to the right and there is also a slight pull to the left??
Tried rotating tyres but made no difference... Anything stand out which could cause a slight pull to the left?
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