Is it alignment or something else ????

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

I can't believe they replaced the rear axle and bearings! There was nothing wrong with the geometry to suggest that something was awry.

Have we had a mechanic in the driver's seat yet?

Has the description of the problem changed again? If it's a 'pull' its more likely to be brakes or tyre related.

This was the printout pre axle change and the reason it was replaced as it had shifted after having it shimmed ( as seen in the previous alignment printouts I posted a few weeks back)

I Mentioned back then that when I was driving that I could feel something shifting while I was driving taking corners... and by the look of the printout a below the rear was moving... so I decided rather than shim it again to get the rear axle replaced...

I thought it was tyre pull also but I rotated the fronts and back and it still pulls left slightly.... I can see my steering wheel start to turn left when I'm driving all the time and it moves much more with bumps on the road.

yeah I gave them half a tank and when I got it back it was nearly empty so I imagine a lot of road testing.

Edited by fendertele on Wednesday 21st February 17:42

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

Axles don't 'shift'. The measurements are well within the realms of what could be considered 'normal'. None of this is going to cause a sensation that the car is 'leaning', 'shifting', 'pulling' or whatever the description of the problem is this week.

It is absolutely illogical to continue down the path of endlessly trying to make a Seat Toledo handle in a particular way without first determining whether the problem exists entirely in your head and has done since the beginning.

That is why people keep asking you;

Has there been a mechanic in the driving seat yet?

I don't get what you mean ? the toe and camber had went out of spec.... I never hit anything from the time he shimmed the rear to getting the rear axle replaced and it went out of spec.. so how did it not shift ? the read out was in the green previously and in the printout above was in the red.. if it hasn't moved what else could cause the rear to go out of spec ?

yeah the seat mechanics doing the axle swap had road tested I imagine as my fuel was nearly empty when I picked it up today.

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

We're talking about minutes here (60ths of a single degree). The measurements are only so repeatable, suspension is a dynamic thing- the operator loading and unloading the car (including fuel level) during the adjustment, any movement of the sensors relative to the road wheel or back / forth movement of the car during measurement will cause slight variation. You aren't going to get 100% repeatability from one measurement to another even on the same ramp, that's why there are tolerances and 'go /no go' green or black colour coding on the print out.

Your car since the very first printout you provided has been aligned in such a way that I would expect it to drive 'normally' i.e. with no discernible difference in normal driving from a hypothetical 'perfect' car with all measurements accurate to the minute.

You have speculated on the problem throughout the thread without ever describing adequately the actual symptoms.

You are now supposing that the measurements are drastically changing in normal driving which if you think about it could only indicate that something is broken or incorrectly assembled- but a few mechanics have looked at it now so we can perhaps rule this out?

Your descriptions are poor and the problem has varied from a 'lean' to a 'veer' to a 'pull', originally from the front and now from the rear, originally to the right and now to the left etc etc...

The latest mechanic tested the car extensively according to fuel use and presumably concluded that it was ok? (although you haven't actually told us this)

The common denominator is you and your insistence that the car isn't driving properly which after all this makes me wonder if it's all in your head?

I never spoke with the mechanic just the service girl... and then I took it straight for an alignment check after the work was done. I have always said the car steers to the right and pulls/leans to the left. But someone pointed out a few replies back that the car cannot lean so I then concluded it must be just how it feels due to the pull and it not actually leaning.

I mentioned that the pull could come and go after taking a roundabout or peforming a 3 point turn which made me believe it was something moving/shifting about during such manoeuvres.

I would imagine that anything that is bent or broken would have been spotted when they stripped the car down to replace the axles or when they fitted the camber bolts on the front ?

The reason I posted today was to figure out why the rear although in spec is still sitting overall to the right toe ? I would have thought when replacing the rear axle that both rear wheels would be close to 0 but both the left is toed in and the right is slightly toed out causing the thrust angle to be to the right...

but basically the only time the car feels right and i'm comfortable driving it is when the road is crowning to the right/drivers side.... when the road is flar or crowning left it feels off.. I don't want to use the word lean as that isn't possible but that is exactly how I would describe it... leaning/slightly pulling left.

now I know it is normal for a car to pull more when the road is crowning... but I do not feel the pull half as much when the road is crowning to the right/drivers side.

anyways cheers for the reply i'll drive on it for a while and keep an eye on it

Edited by fendertele on Wednesday 21st February 18:23

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

You absolutely need to get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to go for a drive with you, experience the same behaviour you experience and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are. Frankly, your descriptions of what you think is wrong are utterly incomprehensible and I have no idea whether there ever was anything wrong with it or what the cause might be. I wouldn't expect anyone you take the car to to understand it any better, if this is how you're describing the problem. Don't assume that because the fuel level went down, the people working on the car road tested it and noticed the same problem you think you have and diagnosed it correctly and know how to fix it. For all you know they drove it home and spent the afternoon doing burnouts.

I'm afraid you're simply wasting time and money asking more and more people to work on the car without both you and them being clear what problem they need to fix. Of course they aren't going to turn your business away and if you're happy to throw money at them for no good reason, well they're going to keep taking it.

I know ?? so what options do I have ? I can only describe it how I feel it and as you said to most it doesn't make sense

I have been driving around tonight and honestly feel like driving it into a wall it's annoying me so much and I've never had it with previous cars...


As said it feels like it leans/pulls to the left but when the wheel is dead centre held it will drive to the right, when I take left corners it feels fine but when I take right corners it feels like the car is wanting to pull left hard.

Edited by fendertele on Thursday 22 February 04:48

[fendertele]

I would accept I'm not gonna be happy with the car if it wasn't for the fact it did feel good for a week or so when it was first shimmed and had new tyres on it.

When it was first shimmed I believe both back wheels were toed in and at the front was neutral.

There was no pulling and no lean at the front.

Now with the axle all of a sudden I feel the car leaning when driving in a straight line... Tyres? The fact the rear wants to go right causing a squirming?


This isn't costing me money my finance company are paying for repairs

Edited by fendertele on Thursday 22 February 13:18

[fendertele]

I would accept I'm not gonna be happy with the car if it wasn't for the fact it did feel good for a week or so when it was first shimmed and had new tyres on it.

When it was first shimmed I believe both back wheels were toed in and at the front was neutral.

The guy that shimmed it also mentioned adjusting the sub frame... So if so when the rear axle was put on would the previous sub frame work now cause any issues etc

There was no pulling and no lean at the front.

Now with the axle all of a sudden I feel the car leaning when driving in a straight line... Tyres? The fact the rear wants to go right causing a squirming?

Edited by fendertele on Thursday 22 February 13:23

[fendertele]

HustleRussell said:

You have a print out of the current geometry on the previous page and it’s all fine. Forget geometry adjustment, it clearly isn't that.

I keep saying this could potentially be brake or assembly related but you seem to have completely ignored that each time?

As long as you are speculating about the issue we are all wasting our time as you don’t have the technical knowledge to describe the symptoms let alone accurately guess the cause- this is why you need to replicate the symptoms with somebody who knows what they’re doing in the drivers seat.

Sorry mate there was a few replies n I may have passed over it.

Brakes ? Well not sure if related but since the guy replaced my rear axle I noticed my handbrake was tighter than it had been before holds at very little clicks so don't know if he may have also been in at the brakes also..

What other parts of the assembly should I get looked at?


Forgot to mention I picked up a friend last night near end of my shift and went a drive...

We went down an old farm road that had a good bit of road crown.

First time we drove down it with road crown on my side and the car leaned a little into it.. however when I turned the car round and drove back up it so the road crowning was on my mates side it appeared to lean into it much more on his side... Felt like he was sliding into his door.

And I could feel it through my seat position as well...

But when I parked the car on flat ground the car looked perfectly fine and even.

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

'Felt like it was leaning ...', but it wasn't leaning.
'Felt like he was sliding into the door ...' but it wasn't leaning.

I appreciate that you're trying to explain what you're experiencing and this is not easy to convey, but the descriptions you're giving are making no sense at all. I suggest you stop trying to tell us what you think is wrong, get an experienced driver familiar with this type of car to drive it when you think the problem happens and tell you whether there is a problem and what the symptoms are.

To be honest, unless and until you do that, any other speculation is a waste of time

well when I say its not leaning, I mean when it's parked on a flat surface there is no difference in ride height... so I don't know how it could excessively lean to one side when on a crowned road... but it does... I feel it through the seat and the passenger felt they were sliding in the door....

and as mentioned when I drove back down the same road the opposite direction, it wasn't as excessive...

I will try and switch the tyres from left to right as from back to front made no difference... if that is no good I will take it back to Seat and see what they can feel... just worried I won't be able to explain it properly to them... will keep you posted

Tbh i'm getting really good at driving this thing despite it feeling all over the place... its like the Russian roulette of cars.. when I go over this bump who knows which way the car will want to goooo... lol

[fendertele]

jsf said:

I'll ask again.

What tyres did you fit and are they all the same?

ill get back to you on the make and they are all the same.

i'm heading to wash the car I will take pics of the tyres to see how they look with make, ill also take some shots from front and rear of how the car sits to see if anything looks off... etc.

[fendertele]

Problem solved was tyres

I had them all set @ 2.5 last night checked it twice....

Tonight I checked again and got same reading... But decided to overinflated them then drop them back down to 2.5 again and it seemed to work... No idea how overinflating them then lowering back to 2.5 bat worked but it's took all the pulling unstableness away

Cheers guys

[fendertele]

jsf said:

Bugger off.

You were running them at 25psi rather than 2.5BAR weren't you.

Lol nah I use a little pencil gauge and always check for 2.5bar

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

That's about 36 psi, which is a bit higher than I'm used to seeing. What's the manufacturers recommended pressure range for those tyres on that car?

In the fuel flap it's anywhere from 2.3 to 2.5 depending on load and as I do a lot of full car with luggage work just set at 2.5



Don't matter was short lived a few bumpy roads and it's back again... Felt good for a good hour or so..

When it's good I have zero handling issues when it shifts I find myself holding the steering wheel a fraction to the right to maintain a straight line I've noticed

[fendertele]

jsf said:

Get your ears tested. Sounds like your balance control system is screwed up.

If that checks out ok, get them to check when they shine light in one ear it doesn't come out of the other.

Might be a good shout as I can actually feel when it's off just by sitting in the car... Hard to explain by can feel it through the seat . So might be a balance thing but doesn't explain how it isn't all the time with a certain alignment it can feel good and with another like crack.

I swear the way the car feels has changed about 3/4 times over the course of my shift..... and it always changes the most drastically after I have took a hard corner and the rear has hit any bump on the road while taking the corner....

infact when I corner and the surface isn't smooth ( any kind of bump) if the rear hits it mid corner, the back end jumps/kicks out and then when I straighten up the issue I'm having has usually changed from one side to the other...

I thought this would have been done with when I got the rear axle replaced but whatever it is... it is still there.

The car drives straight enough due to the front end being in spec but it feels warped/out of shape while doing so.

Edited by fendertele on Friday 23 February 06:23

Edited by fendertele on Friday 23 February 06:25

[fendertele]

Fastpedeller said:

Has anyone else experienced this in the car? I do wonder if it's a balance issue (with your body).
I had similar a few years ago (I got sufficient warning of an 'attack' such that it didn't affect driving) and I was ok riding a bike ........ Indeed it was better. Despite tests at Hospital and GP it wasn't identified until I went to a nutritionist who immediately hit on the problem which was a lactose intolerance I'd developed. For some reason lactose was affecting my balance - If I had a glass of milk now it would give me a feeling in one ear, but nothing like the vertigo I experienced when my daily diet included cheese or other milk products. Why was it better when I rode a bike? - I just took off for several hours with a water bottle and wasn't eating: once I knew the reason it became obvious.

I would believe it to be a balance issue if it weren't for the fact I don't feel it when I drive other cars like my brothers.... this is definitely an issue whether it's big enough for someone else to pick up on I don't know, I drive it for 10 hours a day and I feel the changes as they happen, someone may get into the car for 10 minutes and not knowing how it felt before think it feels pretty normal but I know the moment I sit in the car just by how it's sitting on the road if it's off and at what side.

when I had it aligned maybe a month ago it felt bang on... all previous alignments and any after have failed to get it right like that one guy did, unfortunately he was filling in for another guy from another store so I can't use the same fellow.... on the paper printouts the car has looked almost identical on every alignment I've had so the difference must be something else he did and the rest didn't.. that doesn't show on the printouts...

Frustrated and stressed by it, don't get me wrong it aint going anywhere, it aint dangerous and I can certainly drive it.... I would just prefer it to be enjoyable and not a chore.

[fendertele]

Dave Brand said:

After numerous suggestions that someone else should drive the car have fallen on deaf ears I think we're flogging a dead horse!

No I have taken it in, and just been unlucky that when I have it hasn't been as noticeable...

It shifts... and other time's iit feels perfect.

I have it booked in for Monday to be looked at I just wish I knew what to say to them or a better description of what it is I feel is happening...

all I will say is that

when it is on the front right side.... taking left corners is a problem and I need to slow right down as it feels like it wants to pull/slip right....

when its on the front left side .... taking right corners is a problem and I need to slow right down as it feels like it wants to pull//slip left....

and when it's bang on I can take corners full speed with braking or needing to readjust my steering....

I can feel it change through the steering wheel and also through my bum on the seat...

tonight the car for the most part felt great... occasionally after a bump or a hard corner it shifted out of place.

Edited by fendertele on Sunday 25th February 06:08

Edited by fendertele on Sunday 25th February 06:20

[fendertele]

GreenV8S said:

There seem to be three significant factors you should tell them about:

1. The car does not behave consistently - after taking a sharp left or right corner, the steering feel will be different for some time afterwards. This ought to send them looking for stiction in the suspension, a bush shifting, a faulty damper, a steering fault, or something like that.
2. It is not a geometry fault. You've had it checked and adjusted multiple times by different people without affecting the problem and you know it is within spec.
3. You feel the difference through the steering. If you can tell them what you feel, that would be a great help. Don't try to interpret it. Don't say 'it feels like the car is leaning ... but it isn't leaning'. Don't say 'it feels like the car wants to ...'. Tell them exactly what you feel. Does the steering pull to one side or the other more/less than normal? Has it stopped self-centering? Is it lighter or heavier than normal?

it's funny you should mention the last part..... a long long time ago i had a similar issue however as the car was a rental i had the ability to take it back and swap without having to get to the bottom of the issue..

But what i remember was that the car was really old and after having the same issue for a while one night the steering came loose, by that i mean instead of being responsive to me turning it... it would slip and not grip whatever part is used to turn the wheels.... when it did grip and i managed to turn the car, the steering wheel would be sitting in a different position ( 8 oclock for example) to drive straight and when i took another turn it would move to (4 oclock) to drive straight... it took me 2 hours to get home that night as i had to drive under 10 mph the whole way.

I handed it back and never found out the problem.... but i imagine the whatever connects the steering wheel to the wheels wasn't tight enough and it was slipping.

The car was a Skoda which i believe is part of the same family as Seat ? which would be more than a coincidence.

And to answer your question about the pulling it does pull ever so slightly when it shifts on whatever side i'm feeling it, however the pull is not what annoys me more the way the car feels with connection to the road... like i'm driving on a flat/ out of shape tyre which i know is not the case as it shifts from side to side.

I have camber bolts installed in the front, i don't know if that could be significant to what i'm feeling.

Anyways thanks i will try to keep it short, maybe just mentioning when it switches sides that handling while taking corners becomes unstable and i need to slow into corners but when it switches to a more central position i can take corners with no issue and hopefully that's enough to give them a clue.

Edited by fendertele on Sunday 25th February 15:29

Edited by fendertele on Sunday 25th February 15:40

[fendertele]

I don't know then go to explain it... I just know I don't feel 100 percent in control taking left corners when I feel it on the right side and vice versa.. wish I could give more of a description than that.

Feels heavier if I was to think of something I'm feeling while cornering.

But I honestly don't know it's definitely an issue that comes n goes I drive the same motorways everynihht last night I was able to take all corners at 70... Tonight so far been needing to slow into left ones as I'm not feeling road right on the right side hard to judge etc...


They all add up flat tyre heavier lean on one side but obviously these ain't gonna get me sorted... Wish I could be more helpful guys

Edited by fendertele on Monday 26th February 01:28

Edited by fendertele on Monday 26th February 02:11