Turreting a mk2 Escort - the importance of vertical dampers?

[Baron von Teuchter]

I'm in the (very early) process of building a mk2 escort as a fast, fun road car, in the style of a tarmac rally car and possibly for dabbling in a spot of hillclimbing.

I've got a 52" atlas axle and am going to fit a 5 link kit (probably a panhard rod though could be persuaded with a watts link). I'm fitting a firewall and cant decide whether or not to turret the rear suspension and fit vertical dampers or even go the whole hog and use coilovers.

What are the benefits of moving the struts to a more vertical angle?

Cheers
BvT

[Bertrum]

You need to speak to Graham (Windy) Miller. he can be found on the WSCC forum.

He has lots of experience in self building tarmac and gravel escorts and would probably answer all your questions.

Rob

[peterg1955]

^ Ha! my first thought was Graham as well... but it's Millar ;-)

[gazza285]

Not much point in going five link if you aren’t using coil overs, if you are keeping the leaf springs then the anti tramp bars are enough.

[Mr2Mike]

The ratio of damper movement to wheel movement is the cosine of the damper angle, i.e. with an inclined damper the damper moves less than the wheels does. For the best damper control you want as much damper movement as possible, additionally to get similar levels of damping with less stroke requires heavier oil in the damper and/or heavier valving, both of which makes the damper more prone to fade.

If you are fitting a five link, then you either have to go with slipper springs or coil-overs; if you are going to turret the car it's a no-brainer to go for coils. However if you intend to compete in it, check the regulations for any classes you are hoping to enter. Major suspension mods like this may not be permitted.

A decent set of de-cambered leaf springs (don't use lowering blocks) and a Watts or Mumford linkage (Panhard rod causes binding with leaf springs) and maybe anti-tramp bars along with decent dampers will go a long way to a decent rear end without cutting lumps out of the shell.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 16th July 14:27

[Equus]

Mr2Mike said:

A decent set of de-cambered leaf springs and a Watts or Mumford linkage...

A Mumford is a bad idea in this application.

[Baron von Teuchter]

Mr2Mike said:

The ratio of damper movement to wheel movement is the cosine of the damper angle, i.e. with an inclined damper the damper moves less than the wheels does. For the best damper control you want as much damper movement as possible, additionally to get similar levels of damping with less stroke requires heavier oil in the damper and/or heavier valving, both of which makes the damper more prone to fade.

If you are fitting a five link, then you either have to go with slipper springs or coil-overs; if you are going to turret the car it's a no-brainer to go for coils. However if you intend to compete in it, check the regulations for any classes you are hoping to enter. Major suspension mods like this may not be permitted.

A decent set of de-cambered leaf springs (don't use lowering blocks) and a Watts or Mumford linkage (Panhard rod causes binding with leaf springs) and maybe anti-tramp bars along with decent dampers will go a long way to a decent rear end without cutting lumps out of the shell.

Edited by Mr2Mike on Monday 16th July 14:27

Thanks to all for useful answers - especially Mike.

I havent actually decided on turrets or not - i'm at the point of being able to do anything I want really. I hadn't considered that a panhard rod would interfere with leaf springs. Doesn't the 4 link negate the need for anti tramp bars though?

[gazza285]

Baron von Teuchter said:

Thanks to all for useful answers - especially Mike.

I havent actually decided on turrets or not - i'm at the point of being able to do anything I want really. I hadn't considered that a panhard rod would interfere with leaf springs. Doesn't the 4 link negate the need for anti tramp bars though?

You don’t use anti tramp bars with a four link, but if you are using a four link then you need to use slipper springs. The point is, if you are bothering to go to all the trouble of fitting a four link kit and all the associated welding, why not weld in the turrets as well, which is a much smaller and easier job?

[Mr2Mike]

gazza285 said:

Baron von Teuchter said:

Thanks to all for useful answers - especially Mike.

I havent actually decided on turrets or not - i'm at the point of being able to do anything I want really. I hadn't considered that a panhard rod would interfere with leaf springs. Doesn't the 4 link negate the need for anti tramp bars though?

You don’t use anti tramp bars with a four link, but if you are using a four link then you need to use slipper springs. The point is, if you are bothering to go to all the trouble of fitting a four link kit and all the associated welding, why not weld in the turrets as well, which is a much smaller and easier job?

I meant that you might consider just retaining conventional non-slipper leaf springs (suitably rated and decambered etc) and supplementing them with anti-tramp bars (if you find they are needed) and a transverse linkage. Not as sexy as a five link setup, but can be made to work pretty well and involves far less cutting and welding.

[gazza285]

Mr2Mike said:

gazza285 said:

Baron von Teuchter said:

Thanks to all for useful answers - especially Mike.

I havent actually decided on turrets or not - i'm at the point of being able to do anything I want really. I hadn't considered that a panhard rod would interfere with leaf springs. Doesn't the 4 link negate the need for anti tramp bars though?

You don’t use anti tramp bars with a four link, but if you are using a four link then you need to use slipper springs. The point is, if you are bothering to go to all the trouble of fitting a four link kit and all the associated welding, why not weld in the turrets as well, which is a much smaller and easier job?

I meant that you might consider just retaining conventional non-slipper leaf springs (suitably rated and decambered etc) and supplementing them with anti-tramp bars (if you find they are needed) and a transverse linkage. Not as sexy as a five link setup, but can be made to work pretty well and involves far less cutting and welding.

My Mk1 has single leaf springs and anti tramp bars, plus it was turreted with vertical Billies, that worked pretty good for a budget setup, the angled anti tramp bars helped with the transverse movement, although a dedicated transverse linkage would have been better.

[Baron von Teuchter]

gazza285 said:

Baron von Teuchter said:

Thanks to all for useful answers - especially Mike.

I havent actually decided on turrets or not - i'm at the point of being able to do anything I want really. I hadn't considered that a panhard rod would interfere with leaf springs. Doesn't the 4 link negate the need for anti tramp bars though?

You don’t use anti tramp bars with a four link, but if you are using a four link then you need to use slipper springs. The point is, if you are bothering to go to all the trouble of fitting a four link kit and all the associated welding, why not weld in the turrets as well, which is a much smaller and easier job?

OK, that makes perfect sense.

4 link + watts, turrets + coilovers (or, at least, coil springs & dampers) and no leaf springs at all. Sounds good to me.

Cheers


Current plan is the above with tarmac arches, 8x13" wheels. I've got a rocket box and a 52" atlas with a 3.44 diff (which may be a bit tall for the rocket though)

[gazza285]

Diff ratio wouldn't be too bad for a road car, especially for any motorway use, I had a Rocket with a 3.89 in mine, the sound of twin Webers at consistent high RPM gets a bit annoying after a while, and the economy was shocking.

[Baron von Teuchter]

Yeah, i'm not planning on doing much motorway cruising in it!

Highlands, b-roads mostly

[RLK500]

I have a 3.9, quaife rocket box and run a Harris 2.1, your through the gears in no time, so for B-roads it's fantastic. The motorway is a something you try to avoid..............

[Baron von Teuchter]

Lovely stuff.

Is your box "standard" internals or have you gone straight cut? I really don't fancy straight cut gears on a road car!