Replacing entire suspension/steering
Discussion
If I wanted to completely overhaul the steering and suspension on an old Mk1 Yaris, what components would be required? I'd get a garage to do the work, and it's probably a daft idea anyhow, but if I knew all the bits which should ideally be replaced I'd mull it over...!
I was thinking about front & rear shocks & springs, but then my mechanical knowledge gets a bit sketchy! I suspect anti-rollbar(s), bushes, ball-joints, and wheel bearings might be on the list, but is there anything else? Wishbones?
I was given the car, and it's only a 2001 basic model with the 1 litre engine, so it's not really worth a button.
I've never been happy with the way it steers etc. I've had two or three garages check it out and give it a safety check, and had work done on it, including new wheel bearings when required, and an alignment. Strangely, it keeps passing MOTs, even when a wheel bearing was howling!
I quite like the car, and I'm wondering if giving it a complete overhaul would sort everything out and give me peace of mind. If I did go this route, I'd maybe like to upgrade the suspension with something which was decent quality (such as Koni shocks) which might improve the handling, but I wouldn't want anything which was too harsh or which looked boy racer-ish. Ideally, I'd like it to have better control, sharper steering, and flatter cornering, but with supple suspension - if such a thing is possible!
I was thinking about front & rear shocks & springs, but then my mechanical knowledge gets a bit sketchy! I suspect anti-rollbar(s), bushes, ball-joints, and wheel bearings might be on the list, but is there anything else? Wishbones?
I was given the car, and it's only a 2001 basic model with the 1 litre engine, so it's not really worth a button.
I've never been happy with the way it steers etc. I've had two or three garages check it out and give it a safety check, and had work done on it, including new wheel bearings when required, and an alignment. Strangely, it keeps passing MOTs, even when a wheel bearing was howling!
I quite like the car, and I'm wondering if giving it a complete overhaul would sort everything out and give me peace of mind. If I did go this route, I'd maybe like to upgrade the suspension with something which was decent quality (such as Koni shocks) which might improve the handling, but I wouldn't want anything which was too harsh or which looked boy racer-ish. Ideally, I'd like it to have better control, sharper steering, and flatter cornering, but with supple suspension - if such a thing is possible!
To answer that is going to be like answering the age old question of the length of a piece of string.
You don't REALLY want to be spending lots as the car is worthless, so only fix what is broke would be my advice as you will never get the car to do what you are asking for, it is only a shopping trolley with an engine.
The wheel bearing howling isn't an MOT failure because it probably doesn't have play in it, or make the noise when turned by hand.
Good tyres can make a huge difference to the way a car drives & would be my first step unless they are already new & good quality tyres.
Next if you were to replace all rubber parts (anti-roll bar bushes, wishbone bushes if rubber) on the suspension & the shocks that would be a good start and not hugely expensive, then get it aligned.
You don't REALLY want to be spending lots as the car is worthless, so only fix what is broke would be my advice as you will never get the car to do what you are asking for, it is only a shopping trolley with an engine.
The wheel bearing howling isn't an MOT failure because it probably doesn't have play in it, or make the noise when turned by hand.
Good tyres can make a huge difference to the way a car drives & would be my first step unless they are already new & good quality tyres.
Next if you were to replace all rubber parts (anti-roll bar bushes, wishbone bushes if rubber) on the suspension & the shocks that would be a good start and not hugely expensive, then get it aligned.
Thanks!
I know it's a daft idea. The alternative is what I've been doing until now, which is getting it fixed up when needed. I fitted four good quality tyres before I took it for the alignment. I just always think there's something wrong with it, and it's actually quite a pleasant drive in other respects - I've been wondering what they were like when they were new, and wishing I could go back in time to 1999 to try one!
I've spent a few minutes looking at the Fensport website, and can see that a set of Konis, Eibach springs, bushes, and some other chassis components would add up to around £1100, and the car might need more than that, plus the labour to fit. It might be the sort of thing I would do (I don't really weigh up the cost of repair against the value of a car) but in this case it's a lot of money and I don't know what I'd end up with, plus the rest of the car isn't in mint condition. When I got it, I didn't think I'd ever use it, but it's come in handy when my main car has had problems, and I must have racked up over 30,000 miles in the 2 or 3 years I've had it, including some longish journeys.
I know it's a daft idea. The alternative is what I've been doing until now, which is getting it fixed up when needed. I fitted four good quality tyres before I took it for the alignment. I just always think there's something wrong with it, and it's actually quite a pleasant drive in other respects - I've been wondering what they were like when they were new, and wishing I could go back in time to 1999 to try one!
I've spent a few minutes looking at the Fensport website, and can see that a set of Konis, Eibach springs, bushes, and some other chassis components would add up to around £1100, and the car might need more than that, plus the labour to fit. It might be the sort of thing I would do (I don't really weigh up the cost of repair against the value of a car) but in this case it's a lot of money and I don't know what I'd end up with, plus the rest of the car isn't in mint condition. When I got it, I didn't think I'd ever use it, but it's come in handy when my main car has had problems, and I must have racked up over 30,000 miles in the 2 or 3 years I've had it, including some longish journeys.
Do you know how a brand new car of that type handles? You could easily be dealing with inherent compromises due to the suspension design and the compliance/handling decisions taken by the original designers. In that case you could end up replacing a lot of suspension and transmission components and still be left with a mediocre driving experience.
Unless the car has some special significance, I suggest looking at this as (hopefully) cheap, reliable and reasonably comfortable motoring for as long as it lasts.
Unless the car has some special significance, I suggest looking at this as (hopefully) cheap, reliable and reasonably comfortable motoring for as long as it lasts.
I spent about £500 on new shocks, bushes, droplinks, arms for my Corolla which cost £250. Thing is though, since it's been back on the road, it's the best £500 I've ever spent. The work itself, for the most part, isn't too difficult. But expect the car to be off the road for a while if you do it yourself. If you pay a garage you're going to be hit with labour. That bit is entirely up to you.
I bought polyurathene bushes for the front of my Corolla, and normal bog standard rubber bushes for the rear. However, my rear suspension is multi-link and I think yours is much simpler than that. What this has done though, along with the new shocks, means the car is a lot firmer than it was before hand. Which is to be expected, as 20 year old shock absorbers don't really absorb a fat lot, and 20 year old rubber doesn't absorb anything either. The car is a lot sharper on the turn in, much more squat and stable going around corners. Before it would roll like hell, felt unstable etc. Now I can throw it around a corner and I can keep going, it just instills confidence.
Suspension components, in my view, are consumables like oil and filters. They need changing at some point. If you spend £500 on it, even on a car worth nothing, but you use it for another 2/3 years, then you've had use of a car that cost you far less than the deposit on a new one.
However, before all of this, have you had the power steering fluid changed? I'd do this first and see what happens, as I bet you anything it won't have been changed since it rolled out of the factory when it was built. Fairly easy to do yourself too.
I bought polyurathene bushes for the front of my Corolla, and normal bog standard rubber bushes for the rear. However, my rear suspension is multi-link and I think yours is much simpler than that. What this has done though, along with the new shocks, means the car is a lot firmer than it was before hand. Which is to be expected, as 20 year old shock absorbers don't really absorb a fat lot, and 20 year old rubber doesn't absorb anything either. The car is a lot sharper on the turn in, much more squat and stable going around corners. Before it would roll like hell, felt unstable etc. Now I can throw it around a corner and I can keep going, it just instills confidence.
Suspension components, in my view, are consumables like oil and filters. They need changing at some point. If you spend £500 on it, even on a car worth nothing, but you use it for another 2/3 years, then you've had use of a car that cost you far less than the deposit on a new one.
However, before all of this, have you had the power steering fluid changed? I'd do this first and see what happens, as I bet you anything it won't have been changed since it rolled out of the factory when it was built. Fairly easy to do yourself too.
Thanks very much for the alternative viewpoint! By the way, your username rings a bell - are you the person with a Peugeot 207 with dicey handling? :-)
It's funny you should mention the power steering fluid. I think the Yaris was made with either a hydraulic or electric steering rack. I wasn't sure what mine had, but a couple of weeks ago I fitted a new battery, and some of the steering feel improved, so I think it probably has an electric rack, and the old battery might have been causing problems. It used to 'randomly' change feel - some times it was 'normal-ish' and then sometimes it would feel heavy and almost locked into position when driving on A roads, and a few times it wouldn't self-centre at parking speeds. I had a couple of garages look at it, but they said it was safe, but couldn't see anything wrong. One garage owner had it for a few days and commuted in it - he said it was strange, but it almost seemed like it got better the more he drove it. I'm wondering if that was because the old battery was being topped up with a higher charge with the more regular driving.
Since owning it, I've noticed rubbing noises from the rear driver's side when going around roundabouts. I had a wheel bearing replaced on that side, and also had the rear drums rebuilt.
In the last few days I'm hearing a clicking or slight knock when making slow, tight turns. I'll take it to the garage to have them investigate - I wondered if it might be a bush which is worn or cracked.
If I drive with the window open I can hear the rear suspension squeaking slightly.
It's funny you should mention the power steering fluid. I think the Yaris was made with either a hydraulic or electric steering rack. I wasn't sure what mine had, but a couple of weeks ago I fitted a new battery, and some of the steering feel improved, so I think it probably has an electric rack, and the old battery might have been causing problems. It used to 'randomly' change feel - some times it was 'normal-ish' and then sometimes it would feel heavy and almost locked into position when driving on A roads, and a few times it wouldn't self-centre at parking speeds. I had a couple of garages look at it, but they said it was safe, but couldn't see anything wrong. One garage owner had it for a few days and commuted in it - he said it was strange, but it almost seemed like it got better the more he drove it. I'm wondering if that was because the old battery was being topped up with a higher charge with the more regular driving.
Since owning it, I've noticed rubbing noises from the rear driver's side when going around roundabouts. I had a wheel bearing replaced on that side, and also had the rear drums rebuilt.
In the last few days I'm hearing a clicking or slight knock when making slow, tight turns. I'll take it to the garage to have them investigate - I wondered if it might be a bush which is worn or cracked.
If I drive with the window open I can hear the rear suspension squeaking slightly.
ph9 said:
It's funny you should mention the power steering fluid. I think the Yaris was made with either a hydraulic or electric steering rack. I wasn't sure what mine had, but a couple of weeks ago I fitted a new battery, and some of the steering feel improved, so I think it probably has an electric rack, and the old battery might have been causing problems. It used to 'randomly' change feel - some times it was 'normal-ish' and then sometimes it would feel heavy and almost locked into position when driving on A roads, and a few times it wouldn't self-centre at parking speeds. I had a couple of garages look at it, but they said it was safe, but couldn't see anything wrong. One garage owner had it for a few days and commuted in it - he said it was strange, but it almost seemed like it got better the more he drove it. I'm wondering if that was because the old battery was being topped up with a higher charge with the more regular driving.
Since owning it, I've noticed rubbing noises from the rear driver's side when going around roundabouts. I had a wheel bearing replaced on that side, and also had the rear drums rebuilt.
In the last few days I'm hearing a clicking or slight knock when making slow, tight turns. I'll take it to the garage to have them investigate - I wondered if it might be a bush which is worn or cracked.
If I drive with the window open I can hear the rear suspension squeaking slightly.
Steering feel- you'll never have any in a mk1 Yaris, it's like playing a Sega Rally machine because it's electric. Anyway, fixed by the new battery.Since owning it, I've noticed rubbing noises from the rear driver's side when going around roundabouts. I had a wheel bearing replaced on that side, and also had the rear drums rebuilt.
In the last few days I'm hearing a clicking or slight knock when making slow, tight turns. I'll take it to the garage to have them investigate - I wondered if it might be a bush which is worn or cracked.
If I drive with the window open I can hear the rear suspension squeaking slightly.
Rubbing noises- you've had the bearing and brake looked at so you know there's no safety issue. Some brake noise is normal. Removing the noise isn't going to improve the handling or stability of the car and it's nothing to do with suspension in any case.
Clicking / knocking when making slow, tight turns- Bad constant velocity joint. Not a safety issue right now but will only get worse and is worth fixing. Drivetrain, not suspension.
Slightly squeaking suspension- doesn't necessarily indicate a problem.
No suspension problems so far?
I'm very much in the "replace everything in one go" camp if you intend keeping the car for some time and I've done just that on both mine and Mrs Jagnet's cars. Whilst it's possible to only fix the worst components, on an older car the rest will be long past their best so you'll always have to put up with a drive that's worse than it could be.
A complete overhaul will invariably cost substantially more than the car is worth unless it's something special, but how much would you have to spend to get a car with similarly fresh suspension. Spread out over another 100k miles+ the cost per mile becomes fairly insignificant.
I overhauled the Saab's suspension and brakes in April this year - every bush was renewed (either genuine Saab or Lemforder) and most of the nuts and bolts too. Of all the bushes that I removed there were just 4 from the rear subframe that I considered to be in an ok condition. Top mounts, bump stops, steering arms, balljoints - all changed. I rebuilt the brake calipers and fitted new flexi hoses, pads and discs.
I cleaned up all the corrosion on things like wishbones, trailing arms and subframes in a large vat of Deox-C, resprayed them with epoxy paint and coated them in wax. Springs and dampers were changed for Eibachs and Koni FSDs.
The difference is night and and day and to me is worth every pound of the ~£2500 it cost in parts. That's far more than the car was worth, but where could i find another quick estate car with brand new suspension for less and it'll be good for many many more miles.
Not everyone agrees with this approach. When I took it for its MOT, the mechanic just asked "why?"
A complete overhaul will invariably cost substantially more than the car is worth unless it's something special, but how much would you have to spend to get a car with similarly fresh suspension. Spread out over another 100k miles+ the cost per mile becomes fairly insignificant.
I overhauled the Saab's suspension and brakes in April this year - every bush was renewed (either genuine Saab or Lemforder) and most of the nuts and bolts too. Of all the bushes that I removed there were just 4 from the rear subframe that I considered to be in an ok condition. Top mounts, bump stops, steering arms, balljoints - all changed. I rebuilt the brake calipers and fitted new flexi hoses, pads and discs.
I cleaned up all the corrosion on things like wishbones, trailing arms and subframes in a large vat of Deox-C, resprayed them with epoxy paint and coated them in wax. Springs and dampers were changed for Eibachs and Koni FSDs.
The difference is night and and day and to me is worth every pound of the ~£2500 it cost in parts. That's far more than the car was worth, but where could i find another quick estate car with brand new suspension for less and it'll be good for many many more miles.
Not everyone agrees with this approach. When I took it for its MOT, the mechanic just asked "why?"
ph9 said:
Thanks very much for the alternative viewpoint! By the way, your username rings a bell - are you the person with a Peugeot 207 with dicey handling? :-)
It's funny you should mention the power steering fluid. I think the Yaris was made with either a hydraulic or electric steering rack. I wasn't sure what mine had, but a couple of weeks ago I fitted a new battery, and some of the steering feel improved, so I think it probably has an electric rack, and the old battery might have been causing problems. It used to 'randomly' change feel - some times it was 'normal-ish' and then sometimes it would feel heavy and almost locked into position when driving on A roads, and a few times it wouldn't self-centre at parking speeds. I had a couple of garages look at it, but they said it was safe, but couldn't see anything wrong. One garage owner had it for a few days and commuted in it - he said it was strange, but it almost seemed like it got better the more he drove it. I'm wondering if that was because the old battery was being topped up with a higher charge with the more regular driving.
Since owning it, I've noticed rubbing noises from the rear driver's side when going around roundabouts. I had a wheel bearing replaced on that side, and also had the rear drums rebuilt.
In the last few days I'm hearing a clicking or slight knock when making slow, tight turns. I'll take it to the garage to have them investigate - I wondered if it might be a bush which is worn or cracked.
If I drive with the window open I can hear the rear suspension squeaking slightly.
Yeah, well it's a 107 and still oversteers. Haven't had chance to look at it further.It's funny you should mention the power steering fluid. I think the Yaris was made with either a hydraulic or electric steering rack. I wasn't sure what mine had, but a couple of weeks ago I fitted a new battery, and some of the steering feel improved, so I think it probably has an electric rack, and the old battery might have been causing problems. It used to 'randomly' change feel - some times it was 'normal-ish' and then sometimes it would feel heavy and almost locked into position when driving on A roads, and a few times it wouldn't self-centre at parking speeds. I had a couple of garages look at it, but they said it was safe, but couldn't see anything wrong. One garage owner had it for a few days and commuted in it - he said it was strange, but it almost seemed like it got better the more he drove it. I'm wondering if that was because the old battery was being topped up with a higher charge with the more regular driving.
Since owning it, I've noticed rubbing noises from the rear driver's side when going around roundabouts. I had a wheel bearing replaced on that side, and also had the rear drums rebuilt.
In the last few days I'm hearing a clicking or slight knock when making slow, tight turns. I'll take it to the garage to have them investigate - I wondered if it might be a bush which is worn or cracked.
If I drive with the window open I can hear the rear suspension squeaking slightly.
Some Yaris' are hydrualic, some are electric. You'd need to make sure you've diagnosed whether or not your Yaris has electric really. They went fully electric in 2005.
Also have you checked the tyre pressures? Have you had the tracking checked properly? These can make a difference.
Thanks very much for all that, including the pointers on what could currently be wrong with the car. Also, the comment that it's never going to steer that well. That's the thing - if I had some idea of what it would be like, then I'd feel happier. I suppose a set of Konis and Eibachs might make it handle closer to a Yaris T-Sport (which I've never driven), but it would still be on bog standard Yaris wheels/tyres etc.
I'll mull it over, and have the garage check it (including the CV joints).
The alternatives are to keep it running, replacing bits as/when required and/or put the money I'd spend on the suspension rebuild towards a different car, although anything else I buy at the cheaper end of the market might also require similar work.
sgtBerbatov, what do you think of the 107?
I'll mull it over, and have the garage check it (including the CV joints).
The alternatives are to keep it running, replacing bits as/when required and/or put the money I'd spend on the suspension rebuild towards a different car, although anything else I buy at the cheaper end of the market might also require similar work.
sgtBerbatov, what do you think of the 107?
I have driven a mk1 Yaris. The closest thing I have driven to a mk1 Yaris is a Chevrolet Matiz.
Like the Matiz, the Yaris is an adequate city car. Being a Toyota it is also reliable. There are no frills.
It's not a drivers' car and does not pretend to be.
Trying to make it drive a particular way is madness, especially when you have no frame of reference.
FYI a Peugeot 107 is better than a mk1 Yaris in every way, because it is a generation newer.
Like the Matiz, the Yaris is an adequate city car. Being a Toyota it is also reliable. There are no frills.
It's not a drivers' car and does not pretend to be.
Trying to make it drive a particular way is madness, especially when you have no frame of reference.
FYI a Peugeot 107 is better than a mk1 Yaris in every way, because it is a generation newer.
Thanks for that. If the Mk1 Yaris really is that bad compared to other cars, then it probably makes sense for me to start looking for an alternative.
By the way, the clicks/knocks are due to worn anti-roll bar bushes. The garage says it's not dangerous, but I suspect it might prove to be an MOT failure.
By the way, the clicks/knocks are due to worn anti-roll bar bushes. The garage says it's not dangerous, but I suspect it might prove to be an MOT failure.
ph9 said:
Thanks very much for all that, including the pointers on what could currently be wrong with the car. Also, the comment that it's never going to steer that well. That's the thing - if I had some idea of what it would be like, then I'd feel happier. I suppose a set of Konis and Eibachs might make it handle closer to a Yaris T-Sport (which I've never driven), but it would still be on bog standard Yaris wheels/tyres etc.
I'll mull it over, and have the garage check it (including the CV joints).
The alternatives are to keep it running, replacing bits as/when required and/or put the money I'd spend on the suspension rebuild towards a different car, although anything else I buy at the cheaper end of the market might also require similar work.
sgtBerbatov, what do you think of the 107?
I bought it new in September 2010, and I still have it and won't ever get rid of it. It's maxed itself out on the autobahn of Germany, and dealt with the windy roads of Scotland. For what it is, a utalitarian vehicle, it's great. Cheap to run, insure, and repair. Only fly in the cream is the catalytic converter will crack. I'm on my 3rd, and I have to either buy another second hand one or get my old one welded. I'll mull it over, and have the garage check it (including the CV joints).
The alternatives are to keep it running, replacing bits as/when required and/or put the money I'd spend on the suspension rebuild towards a different car, although anything else I buy at the cheaper end of the market might also require similar work.
sgtBerbatov, what do you think of the 107?
If I was to buy one though, I'd go for the Toyota Aygo Black. I had one as a courtesy years ago when my 107 was getting fixed, and it was so much nicer inside than the 107. A bit posher to be honest.
But hand on heart I love the 107, think it's the best car since the Mini, and I'm 6ft 3 and I find it comfortable.
Gassing Station | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff