Discussion
jsf said:
Sheepshanks said:
If you drive at speed around a fast, wet, bend the car is always trying to slip sideways. The issue with having the most worn tyres on the back is that, if the back end lets go (called oversteeer) at speed you'll never catch it and you'll crash (probably). I live in a semi-rural area and it's reckoned this is often the cause of single vehicle accidents that happen around here - and usually it's young lads in hatchbacks.
If the most worn tyres are on the front then the car understeers and tends to try and go straight on - it's not so sudden and you notice it through the steering wheel, so you back off and usually everything is OK.
"Modern" cars with stability control can mostly sort themselves out, although in extreme circumstances they can't overcome the laws of physics.
Having said all that it's kind of traditional for people to put the best tyres on the front - just be aware of the limitations. Be especially cautious if other people drive the car.
Deepest tread should be on the front, it does more work in the wet, the rear tyre runs on a much drier surface due to the front clearing the water off the road.If the most worn tyres are on the front then the car understeers and tends to try and go straight on - it's not so sudden and you notice it through the steering wheel, so you back off and usually everything is OK.
"Modern" cars with stability control can mostly sort themselves out, although in extreme circumstances they can't overcome the laws of physics.
Having said all that it's kind of traditional for people to put the best tyres on the front - just be aware of the limitations. Be especially cautious if other people drive the car.
On a 6 wheel Tyrrell F1 car you can run a wet on the front front and a slick on the front rear and pickup grip.
t is that? Better give your head a serious wobble.I'm with the best tyres on the back brigade.
The fronts clearing the water for the back won't work in standing water of if sheets of water are flowing down the road.
Also on a tight long bends, like some motorway exits, the rears won't track the fronts.
I was surprised too when I first heard this advice, I thought the fronts do all the work so the best tyres should go up front. Then I watched the YouTube videos. Was shocked at how car easily cars would spin with this set up.
I suppose this advice might be better if you are just travelling straight ahead and there isn't too much water on the surface, but on balance, I'd want my car to be safer when turning than going straight ahead and I'd want it to be safer when there is more water too.
As ever with this sort of thing, it's all about the balance of compromise.
The fronts clearing the water for the back won't work in standing water of if sheets of water are flowing down the road.
Also on a tight long bends, like some motorway exits, the rears won't track the fronts.
I was surprised too when I first heard this advice, I thought the fronts do all the work so the best tyres should go up front. Then I watched the YouTube videos. Was shocked at how car easily cars would spin with this set up.
I suppose this advice might be better if you are just travelling straight ahead and there isn't too much water on the surface, but on balance, I'd want my car to be safer when turning than going straight ahead and I'd want it to be safer when there is more water too.
As ever with this sort of thing, it's all about the balance of compromise.
Edited by wyson on Tuesday 21st June 08:50
These threads make me chuckle.
Those who say “new tyres on the front!” seem to think that everyone else is advocating the fitting of tyres with 2mm of tread to the front. No! They’ll probably have 5mm of tread, and they’ll be quite capable of clearing large volumes of water at speed.
Anyway. New tyres on the front feel horrible and wobbly.
Those who say “new tyres on the front!” seem to think that everyone else is advocating the fitting of tyres with 2mm of tread to the front. No! They’ll probably have 5mm of tread, and they’ll be quite capable of clearing large volumes of water at speed.
Anyway. New tyres on the front feel horrible and wobbly.
Firstly, I must say, I have picked your post not to argue with you, so please don't feel that is the case, I have picked it because it presents points that I feel contra to.
It is only possible if the driver REALLY is ignoring the conditions on the road at the time, tyres with good tread will easily clear well over an inch of standing water up to 60 or so MPH, if someone is going faster than that in such conditions there are bigger problems afoot that tread depth.
As you say, each to their own, we all make our own risk assessment/decision based on the evidence we see & have experienced.
wyson said:
I'm with the best tyres on the back brigade.
The fronts clearing the water for the back won't work in standing water of if sheets of water are flowing down the road.
But it does, when following a car through standing water/heavy rain at speed the car in front "clears" a path through the water for a few seconds, which can clearly be seen, so imagine how effective that is between your own wheels.The fronts clearing the water for the back won't work in standing water of if sheets of water are flowing down the road.
wyson said:
Also on a tight long bends, like some motorway exits, the rears won't track the fronts.
Correct, they don't, but who has ever aquaplaned on a bend?It is only possible if the driver REALLY is ignoring the conditions on the road at the time, tyres with good tread will easily clear well over an inch of standing water up to 60 or so MPH, if someone is going faster than that in such conditions there are bigger problems afoot that tread depth.
wyson said:
I was surprised too when I first heard this advice, I thought the fronts do all the work so the best tyres should go up front. Then I watched the YouTube videos. Was shocked at how car easily cars would spin with this set up.
Quite true, but then they are deliberately trying to do exactly what I am referring to above, whereas in the real world only someone with no grasp of the situation would be driving like that in such conditions.wyson said:
I suppose this advice might be better if you are just travelling straight ahead and there isn't too much water on the surface, but on balance, I'd want my car to be safer when turning than going straight ahead and I'd want it to be safer when there is more water too.
And it is for the exact reasons I have always gone better on the front, as it is still possible to steer/brake the front when the rear is aquaplaning, you can do neither of these when the front is aquaplaning.As you say, each to their own, we all make our own risk assessment/decision based on the evidence we see & have experienced.
E-bmw said:
Correct, they don't, but who has ever aquaplaned on a bend?
It's American, but I think this shows the issue pretty well:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gSz7cm6MwH0
There was a similar video Fifth Gear did and they had a comparison car with 4 evenly worn tyres and it was quite remarkable that it hung on for longer than the car with new tyres on the front only. And they were only doing very moderate speeds.
Really, on any recentish car, its stability control should cope with this, but the systems aren't infallible.
As I've already said in the thread, do whatever you like, but if you're 'responsible' for looking after a car that other people drive then it's as well to be aware of what's considered to be the correct thing to do.
Thanks for all the useful info guys.
I'll probably run the tyres down a bit first then consider a rotation.
Quick question. This tyre is on the rear passenger non-directional, right ?
If I wanted this tyre on the opposite side of the front axle ( front driver side ) would they need to take the tyre off ?
I'll probably run the tyres down a bit first then consider a rotation.
Quick question. This tyre is on the rear passenger non-directional, right ?
If I wanted this tyre on the opposite side of the front axle ( front driver side ) would they need to take the tyre off ?
Edited by MakaveliX on Sunday 26th June 18:57
Looks like a standard tyre to me that can run in either direction and doesn't look sided either (sided tyres can run either dircetion but have and outside and an inside, outside will be labelled if this were the case), if you inverted the picture the tyre looks exactly the same, this would not be the case with a directional nor sided tyre.
Directional tyres will definately have an arrow embossed on the sidewall pointing the way the tyre is intended to rotate.
Directional tyres will definately have an arrow embossed on the sidewall pointing the way the tyre is intended to rotate.
Edited by Smint on Sunday 26th June 19:05
Smint said:
Looks like a standard tyre to me that can run in either direction and doesn't look sided either (sided tyres can run either dircetion but have and outside and an inside, outside will be labelled if this were the case)
Directional tyres will definately have an arrow embossed on the sidewall pointing the way the tyre is intended to rotate.
Thanks Directional tyres will definately have an arrow embossed on the sidewall pointing the way the tyre is intended to rotate.
Yeah no mention of any markings suggesting it's directional.
Asking because if it's a simple job of just swapping the two wheels around rather than having to mess around getting the tyres themselves taken off then I'd consider a rotation.
Looking at all the other tyres, they all seem to look identical in terms of direction of the grooves etc
MakaveliX said:
Thanks for all the useful info guys.
I'll probably run the tyres down a bit first then consider a rotation.
Quick question. This tyre is on the rear passenger non-directional, right ?
If I wanted this tyre on the opposite side of the front axle ( front driver side ) would they need to take the tyre off ?
Not sure what tyre that is, what is it & is it the same manufacturer/type as the others?I'll probably run the tyres down a bit first then consider a rotation.
Quick question. This tyre is on the rear passenger non-directional, right ?
If I wanted this tyre on the opposite side of the front axle ( front driver side ) would they need to take the tyre off ?
MakaveliX said:
Thanks for all the useful info guys.
I'll probably run the tyres down a bit first then consider a rotation.
Quick question. This tyre is on the rear passenger non-directional, right ?
If I wanted this tyre on the opposite side of the front axle ( front driver side ) would they need to take the tyre off ?
It’s non-directional. If it was direction, it would have an arrow showing the direction of rotation on the sidewall and the tread pattern would look distinctly direction. I'll probably run the tyres down a bit first then consider a rotation.
Quick question. This tyre is on the rear passenger non-directional, right ?
If I wanted this tyre on the opposite side of the front axle ( front driver side ) would they need to take the tyre off ?
Edited by MakaveliX on Sunday 26th June 18:57
E-bmw said:
Not sure what tyre that is, what is it & is it the same manufacturer/type as the others?
Landsail. Budget tyres but have been absolutely fine for the 10 months or so of driving. Tread lasts a fair while too.And yes, all the other tyres are exactly the same.
As it won't require the tyre to be taken off ( just the wheels ) then I'll get a rotation done once they've worn down a bit.
In regard to tread depths, do you guys check the outer groove or the inside ? I use a depth guage. I tend to wait for the outer groove to get to 3mm then replace
Edited by MakaveliX on Monday 27th June 16:18
Edited by MakaveliX on Monday 27th June 16:20
MakaveliX said:
E-bmw said:
Not sure what tyre that is, what is it & is it the same manufacturer/type as the others?
Landsail. Budget tyres but have been absolutely fine for the 10 months or so of driving. Tread lasts a fair while too.And yes, all the other tyres are exactly the same.
In regard to tread depths, do you guys check the outer groove or the inside ? I use a depth guage. I tend to wait for the outer groove to get to 3mm then replace
Tread depth should be measured in all circumferential grooves, as if the tyre is over inflated & the centre wears more, by your method you may have a tyre with a bald middle, which is illegal & not be changing it.
E-bmw said:
TBH if you are happy on Landsail tyres, I would worry too much about rotating them, you won't notice the difference.
Tread depth should be measured in all circumferential grooves, as if the tyre is over inflated & the centre wears more, by your method you may have a tyre with a bald middle, which is illegal & not be changing it.
Cool thanks for the advice Tread depth should be measured in all circumferential grooves, as if the tyre is over inflated & the centre wears more, by your method you may have a tyre with a bald middle, which is illegal & not be changing it.
I do check all the grooves regularly, the lowest is 4mm so got plenty left.
In regards to rotation it wouldn't be for handling, just to get the most out of the tyres and reduce the difference in mm on each side of both axles.
E-bmw said:
And it is for the exact reasons I have always gone better on the front, as it is still possible to steer/brake the front when the rear is aquaplaning, you can do neither of these when the front is aquaplaning.
As you say, each to their own, we all make our own risk assessment/decision based on the evidence we see & have experienced.
Really quite enjoy this sort of argument. Can learn a lot from other peoples point of view.As you say, each to their own, we all make our own risk assessment/decision based on the evidence we see & have experienced.
On pistonheads, generally, its the put downs and ad hominem attacks that I find unpleasant. Not sure what people get out of them.
MakaveliX said:
E-bmw said:
TBH if you are happy on Landsail tyres, I would worry too much about rotating them, you won't notice the difference.
Tread depth should be measured in all circumferential grooves, as if the tyre is over inflated & the centre wears more, by your method you may have a tyre with a bald middle, which is illegal & not be changing it.
Cool thanks for the advice Tread depth should be measured in all circumferential grooves, as if the tyre is over inflated & the centre wears more, by your method you may have a tyre with a bald middle, which is illegal & not be changing it.
I do check all the grooves regularly, the lowest is 4mm so got plenty left.
In regards to rotation it wouldn't be for handling, just to get the most out of the tyres and reduce the difference in mm on each side of both axles.
a) it’s dry-ish season
b) there is some other wheel or tyre changing that is needed.
2) with regards rotating tyres. BMW used to recommend not rotating them because;
a) Front and rear tyres perform different functions, so wear to a different shape. That is the rears wear to a flatter shape, and the fronts wear to a more curved shape, because of the steering forces and change in angle to the road that they encounter. Thus putting fronts on the rears, you will be replacing a more curved tyre where a flatter tyre should be. Not so good in the wet.
b) BMW do go on to say, ‘if you DO want to rotate tyres to even out wear, then you should do it every 3000 miles, and only swap from the same side, never diagonally.
Again, best tyres to the rear, but above 4mm shouldn’t be an issue for the fronts, whatever the rears are. Aquaplaning with 3mm should not be an issue, except at higher road speeds. By then, the wipers will not be coping anyway. I had an aquaplane once, outside lane of M6, just eased back to 50 mph, and let the others go past if they wished. I had about 4mm tread, but there comes a storm-laden point when the tread depth will not matter or help!
Edited by Pica-Pica on Thursday 30th June 13:12
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