Just fit winter tyres to the drive wheels?
Discussion
Bought four winter tyres for the classic mini last year, fitted two to the front for last years snow and went out to play (only about half an inch here) No matter how hard I tried at normal driving speeds I couldn't get the back to step out by just using the steering. I also tried braking hard to see if I could get it to lock the rears but found no more problems than normal driving with the summers on, even while braking with steering. Obviously with a bit of handbrake I could gain a little opposite lock cornering but I won't be trying that under normal driving. I fitted the second pair to my trusty daily rotbox metrovans drive wheels this year with the same effect, thankyou tesco for the empty carpark/test track.
I realise the rear brakes are not the most powerful around on the mini or metro but the winter tyres have made sure I don't get stuck at junctions or slight inclines and have all but eliminated wheel spin in icy/slippery conditions with normal careful snowy weather driving. I didn't buy them to do stage rallying, just a means to not get stuck again. The standard summer tyres were awful, having to rock between first and reverse to get away from some traffic lights convinced me to try the winters on in the first place!
I realise the rear brakes are not the most powerful around on the mini or metro but the winter tyres have made sure I don't get stuck at junctions or slight inclines and have all but eliminated wheel spin in icy/slippery conditions with normal careful snowy weather driving. I didn't buy them to do stage rallying, just a means to not get stuck again. The standard summer tyres were awful, having to rock between first and reverse to get away from some traffic lights convinced me to try the winters on in the first place!
caneswell said:
Jesus there is a lot a retards about (mind you that's fairly obvious seeing the current chaos on the roads!)
Winter tyres provide significantly more grip, applying them to only two wheels is moronic! If you can't see that you really shouldn't be allowed a car!
You might think you won't "drive near the limit", however on summer tyres in the snow the "limit" can be about 10mph, so you will and then you will crash...please do it on your own!
Really? Winter tyres provide significantly more grip, applying them to only two wheels is moronic! If you can't see that you really shouldn't be allowed a car!
You might think you won't "drive near the limit", however on summer tyres in the snow the "limit" can be about 10mph, so you will and then you will crash...please do it on your own!
Do you know this from your own experience on this subject?
If you had read the preceding 8 pages (can you read for that long?) before you made your own retarded comment you'd see there are lots of people on this thread who have, and do, use winters on just 2 wheels and it works fine.
We have done this for many years. The main reason is so we wont get stuck, which in a remote area is really important. I agree, as previously stated it's better to have 4 fitted but having 2 is still a huge improvement over 4 sumer tyres.
The reason for just having the two might be cost, or storage space for the set stored off the car.
I have currently got 2 fwd cars fitted with winter tyres on the front only and it works just fine and I find moronic comments such as yours ridiculous. I've been driving a fair bit in snow over the past few days and I'd feel much safer if the other road users at least had two winters fitted than having none.
Eg when I am safely going along according to the conditions, with a safe stopping/reacting distance in front and I regularly see people tailgating, or worse see people sliding out from side roads into the main road with their wheels locked up - the majority are sadly unable to drive to the conditions in snow.
rallycross said:
caneswell said:
Jesus there is a lot a retards about (mind you that's fairly obvious seeing the current chaos on the roads!)
Winter tyres provide significantly more grip, applying them to only two wheels is moronic! If you can't see that you really shouldn't be allowed a car!
You might think you won't "drive near the limit", however on summer tyres in the snow the "limit" can be about 10mph, so you will and then you will crash...please do it on your own!
Really? Winter tyres provide significantly more grip, applying them to only two wheels is moronic! If you can't see that you really shouldn't be allowed a car!
You might think you won't "drive near the limit", however on summer tyres in the snow the "limit" can be about 10mph, so you will and then you will crash...please do it on your own!
Do you know this from your own experience on this subject?
If you had read the preceding 8 pages (can you read for that long?) before you made your own retarded comment you'd see there are lots of people on this thread who have, and do, use winters on just 2 wheels and it works fine.
We have done this for many years. The main reason is so we wont get stuck, which in a remote area is really important. I agree, as previously stated it's better to have 4 fitted but having 2 is still a huge improvement over 4 sumer tyres.
The reason for just having the two might be cost, or storage space for the set stored off the car.
I have currently got 2 fwd cars fitted with winter tyres on the front only and it works just fine and I find moronic comments such as yours ridiculous. I've been driving a fair bit in snow over the past few days and I'd feel much safer if the other road users at least had two winters fitted than having none.
Eg when I am safely going along according to the conditions, with a safe stopping/reacting distance in front and I regularly see people tailgating, or worse see people sliding out from side roads into the main road with their wheels locked up - the majority are sadly unable to drive to the conditions in snow.
This one went:
1)2 winter tyres ok?
2)Experience people say Yes there's no issues whatsoever.
3)Others think caution might be advised.
4)Based on 2 a number of people try it and report back going "You can get about, but I'm not happy with the imbalance it creates, definitely 4 tyres not 2 next time for me"
Which to me suggests those at stage 2 look back with a bit of a rose tint. While those at 4 are offering current more relevant experience, which supports what people at 3 said.
Munter said:
Which to me suggests those at stage 2 look back with a bit of a rose tint. While those at 4 are offering current more relevant experience, which supports what people at 3 said.
People who suggest that they find "the car unbalanced" or they are "getting oversteer" when fitting winter tyres to the front of a fwd car and not the rear, are simply either driving too fast for the conditions or perhaps have shocking Chinese tyres on the rear which have gone very hard. Each of those scenarios has a very easy fix 
The AA are not going to recommend something that in todays litigious climate, could land them in court, no matter how useful it might have been. The country is full of morons who can't drive in the summer let alone on snow.
I had winter tyres on the front last year, Michelin summer on the rear. They did what they say on the tin . . . a Volvo V70 is hardly an example of great handling even in the dry so the fact it coped so well is perhaps more to do with common sense and skill than anything else ?
I get the impression that a lot of people on the winter tyre threads think that winter tyres let you ignore the conditions or break the laws of physics . . . that's not true obviously. Ice is ice and winter tyres only give you additional margin, a little more grip, it's still not like driving on a dry road.
Winters on the front (if that's all you want) give you specific safety benefits over summer tyres all round . . . simples. I can't see what people are bleating about that a bit of common sense doesn't cure.
I am quite glad some of the people who post here dont work in motorsport 
Different levels of grip front to rear is not an automatic recpie for disastor. It happens with most forms of racing i.e switching compounds.
This is exactly the same on a slightly more extreme scale. FWD car with lots of weight over the driven wheels with heavy cleated tread pattern and fit a set of 048's (very summer tyres) to the rear. That combination will be safer and provide more drip than 4 x summer tyres in the same snowy conditions. Obviously more winter tyres will double the overall improvement like for like, is it really that difficult to understand basic physics?!
Different levels of grip front to rear is not an automatic recpie for disastor. It happens with most forms of racing i.e switching compounds.
This is exactly the same on a slightly more extreme scale. FWD car with lots of weight over the driven wheels with heavy cleated tread pattern and fit a set of 048's (very summer tyres) to the rear. That combination will be safer and provide more drip than 4 x summer tyres in the same snowy conditions. Obviously more winter tyres will double the overall improvement like for like, is it really that difficult to understand basic physics?!
I have 2 winter tyres on the rear of my 1 series and.... wait for it.... ITS FINE!!!
I just needed some traction to get me off the drive and up my street, obvioulsy its not as good as having 4 but having tried both it is better than summer tyres all round.
The nice thing about RWD is that I can steer with my right foot and turn understeer into oversteer
I just needed some traction to get me off the drive and up my street, obvioulsy its not as good as having 4 but having tried both it is better than summer tyres all round.
The nice thing about RWD is that I can steer with my right foot and turn understeer into oversteer
Busa_Rush said:
Munter said:
Which to me suggests those at stage 2 look back with a bit of a rose tint. While those at 4 are offering current more relevant experience, which supports what people at 3 said.
People who suggest that they find "the car unbalanced" or they are "getting oversteer" when fitting winter tyres to the front of a fwd car and not the rear, are simply either driving too fast for the conditions or perhaps have shocking Chinese tyres on the rear which have gone very hard. Each of those scenarios has a very easy fix The AA are not going to recommend something that in todays litigious climate, could land them in court, no matter how useful it might have been. The country is full of morons who can't drive in the summer let alone on snow.
I had winter tyres on the front last year, Michelin summer on the rear. They did what they say on the tin . . . a Volvo V70 is hardly an example of great handling even in the dry so the fact it coped so well is perhaps more to do with common sense and skill than anything else ?
I get the impression that a lot of people on the winter tyre threads think that winter tyres let you ignore the conditions or break the laws of physics . . . that's not true obviously. Ice is ice and winter tyres only give you additional margin, a little more grip, it's still not like driving on a dry road.
Winters on the front (if that's all you want) give you specific safety benefits over summer tyres all round . . . simples. I can't see what people are bleating about that a bit of common sense doesn't cure.
People are going way overboard here with the 'it's dangerous' comments.
Would they really rather see everyone driving on 4 summer tyres than with 2 winters and 2 summers? I know who I'd rather be on the roads with.
ABS takes care of stability when braking- its designed to allow optimum braking with different grip levels at each wheel so straight line braking will not be affected.
The fact a car on summer tyres is predictable when cornering is pretty irrelevant, because it's predictably awful! A FWD car on 2 winter tyres will accelerate, brake and corner better than one on summer tyres.
Ok it's not great in an emergency situation, but as a rule emergency situations aren't ever particularly ideal, hence why we drive in a manner that minimizes the chance of that happening. You are less likely to find yourself in an emergency situation in the first place if you have 2 winter tyres rather than 4 summer tyres, and for that reason, 2 winter tyres are safer than 4 summer tyres.
Would they really rather see everyone driving on 4 summer tyres than with 2 winters and 2 summers? I know who I'd rather be on the roads with.
ABS takes care of stability when braking- its designed to allow optimum braking with different grip levels at each wheel so straight line braking will not be affected.
The fact a car on summer tyres is predictable when cornering is pretty irrelevant, because it's predictably awful! A FWD car on 2 winter tyres will accelerate, brake and corner better than one on summer tyres.
Ok it's not great in an emergency situation, but as a rule emergency situations aren't ever particularly ideal, hence why we drive in a manner that minimizes the chance of that happening. You are less likely to find yourself in an emergency situation in the first place if you have 2 winter tyres rather than 4 summer tyres, and for that reason, 2 winter tyres are safer than 4 summer tyres.
It was fairly common in the 60s to have Dunlop Town and Country on the driven wheels for winter (look like Land Rover Tyres) - I remember seeing them on Minis and a friends dad had a Austin Camgridge with them.
The diffence then of course was the roads were quieter, cars were slower, normal tyres were narrower so winters were the same size as summers and on Minis it doesn't matter so much where the tail is, just keep pointing the front the right way and let the tail keep up
I would think the summary is that 2 winters on and drive at about the speed you would on 4 summers you will be better off than 4 summers; if you drive like you've got 4 winters you'll be in trouble.
The diffence then of course was the roads were quieter, cars were slower, normal tyres were narrower so winters were the same size as summers and on Minis it doesn't matter so much where the tail is, just keep pointing the front the right way and let the tail keep up
I would think the summary is that 2 winters on and drive at about the speed you would on 4 summers you will be better off than 4 summers; if you drive like you've got 4 winters you'll be in trouble.
john2443 said:
cars were slower, normal tyres were narrower so winters were the same size as summers and...
Cars were lighter and weren't over-tyred in the first place.How on earth did we cope in the snow without ABS, TCS, SCS back in the 70's its as if everyone has forgotten how to drive! I am just going to have to scan the picture of the '77 Vette that we borrowed during an early 80's winter in the UK. There is probably not a worse car to drive in the snow yet we all survived.
I have to blame the yanks (again). Their quite frankly pathetic nanny state and need to house their ever expanding girths has now fully gripped us here into thinking we need pretty much military transport to travel in the snow, let along the school run.
As I said before, people used to understand the basics of grip and drove accordingly now it seems you will be mown down if you dont have 'winter tyres' or a farm vehicle. Its fine though just wait until the summer, the very same knob ends will be holding me up on the commute and getting in the way when I want a hoon in the countryside, I guess thats called not winning.
margerison said:
Did you see how fast he was going ? The front tyres were crawling under the wheel so in an 1100 from 1960's . . . he probably got what he deserved ! Old tyre design is nothing like modern tyres, I've had ACB10's on my kit car and they were brilliant, apart from tramlining a bit. Very nice on track, probably one of the best I tried at that time.
JR said:
yonex said:
thinking we need pretty much military transport to travel in the snow
Only at Heathrow.Having had several delays over the years at Chicago I invite all gobs
te Americans who give soundbites to the TV cameras and radio shows to 'do one' Ok I'll add something in from my very extensive experience on this exact subject. Not many people have the chance to do this but I did about six years ago. 2 days of winter tyre testing & general hooning about as you do in my job.
Empty snow ice covered runway, on one of the largest disused military airports in Europe.
Speeds ranged from 10mph to 130mph yes really....
ABS Equpped Saab 9000 (non TSC/DSC) Saab 9000 on Pirelli winters up front & P6000's on the rear.
On the winters front & summers rear, the car drove like a rwd car, turning in well but progressive oversteer that could only be countered by accelerating the front to lose traction, which meant you gained speed not lost it! It was hugely entertaining.
Under braking, the car was hidously unstable & got worse the faster you went, this was extremely difficult to control. I am not joking when I say you could get the car 100% facing the wrong direction under braking at +100mph, then keep it nailed in 4th & it'd pull itself back round straight again. However you were still going fast at this point. The effect could be replicated at almost speed if there was camber involved. Amazing to do it & also great fun.
It's fine if you use this set up to get out of trouble, but get anywhere near the peak traction of the front tyres & you could easily get yourself in very big trouble. A DSC equipped car will cope much much better by briefly locking a front wheel to counteract the spin but you are relying on luck.
The car equipped with winters could get to 130mph & still stop in time on the runway, the summer equipped tyre struggled to reach 60mph & still stop in time, it was also hidously unstable at this speed & you'd often enter a spin trying to slow it down.
It can be massive fun, just not on public roads.
Empty snow ice covered runway, on one of the largest disused military airports in Europe.
Speeds ranged from 10mph to 130mph yes really....
ABS Equpped Saab 9000 (non TSC/DSC) Saab 9000 on Pirelli winters up front & P6000's on the rear.
On the winters front & summers rear, the car drove like a rwd car, turning in well but progressive oversteer that could only be countered by accelerating the front to lose traction, which meant you gained speed not lost it! It was hugely entertaining.
Under braking, the car was hidously unstable & got worse the faster you went, this was extremely difficult to control. I am not joking when I say you could get the car 100% facing the wrong direction under braking at +100mph, then keep it nailed in 4th & it'd pull itself back round straight again. However you were still going fast at this point. The effect could be replicated at almost speed if there was camber involved. Amazing to do it & also great fun.
It's fine if you use this set up to get out of trouble, but get anywhere near the peak traction of the front tyres & you could easily get yourself in very big trouble. A DSC equipped car will cope much much better by briefly locking a front wheel to counteract the spin but you are relying on luck.
The car equipped with winters could get to 130mph & still stop in time on the runway, the summer equipped tyre struggled to reach 60mph & still stop in time, it was also hidously unstable at this speed & you'd often enter a spin trying to slow it down.
It can be massive fun, just not on public roads.
cptsideways said:
Ok I'll add something in from my very extensive experience on this exact subject. Not many people have the chance to do this but I did about six years ago. 2 days of winter tyre testing & general hooning about as you do in my job.
Empty snow ice covered runway, on one of the largest disused military airports in Europe.
Speeds ranged from 10mph to 130mph yes really....
ABS Equpped Saab 9000 (non TSC/DSC) Saab 9000 on Pirelli winters up front & P6000's on the rear.
On the winters front & summers rear, the car drove like a rwd car, turning in well but progressive oversteer that could only be countered by accelerating the front to lose traction, which meant you gained speed not lost it! It was hugely entertaining.
Under braking, the car was hidously unstable & got worse the faster you went, this was extremely difficult to control. I am not joking when I say you could get the car 100% facing the wrong direction under braking at +100mph, then keep it nailed in 4th & it'd pull itself back round straight again. However you were still going fast at this point. The effect could be replicated at almost speed if there was camber involved. Amazing to do it & also great fun.
It's fine if you use this set up to get out of trouble, but get anywhere near the peak traction of the front tyres & you could easily get yourself in very big trouble. A DSC equipped car will cope much much better by briefly locking a front wheel to counteract the spin but you are relying on luck.
The car equipped with winters could get to 130mph & still stop in time on the runway, the summer equipped tyre struggled to reach 60mph & still stop in time, it was also hidously unstable at this speed & you'd often enter a spin trying to slow it down.
It can be massive fun, just not on public roads.
With Pirelli P6000's on the rear I am amazed you got any grip at all Empty snow ice covered runway, on one of the largest disused military airports in Europe.
Speeds ranged from 10mph to 130mph yes really....
ABS Equpped Saab 9000 (non TSC/DSC) Saab 9000 on Pirelli winters up front & P6000's on the rear.
On the winters front & summers rear, the car drove like a rwd car, turning in well but progressive oversteer that could only be countered by accelerating the front to lose traction, which meant you gained speed not lost it! It was hugely entertaining.
Under braking, the car was hidously unstable & got worse the faster you went, this was extremely difficult to control. I am not joking when I say you could get the car 100% facing the wrong direction under braking at +100mph, then keep it nailed in 4th & it'd pull itself back round straight again. However you were still going fast at this point. The effect could be replicated at almost speed if there was camber involved. Amazing to do it & also great fun.
It's fine if you use this set up to get out of trouble, but get anywhere near the peak traction of the front tyres & you could easily get yourself in very big trouble. A DSC equipped car will cope much much better by briefly locking a front wheel to counteract the spin but you are relying on luck.
The car equipped with winters could get to 130mph & still stop in time on the runway, the summer equipped tyre struggled to reach 60mph & still stop in time, it was also hidously unstable at this speed & you'd often enter a spin trying to slow it down.
It can be massive fun, just not on public roads.
BillyB said:
cptsideways said:
Ok I'll add something in from my very extensive experience on this exact subject. Not many people have the chance to do this but I did about six years ago. 2 days of winter tyre testing & general hooning about as you do in my job.
Empty snow ice covered runway, on one of the largest disused military airports in Europe.
Speeds ranged from 10mph to 130mph yes really....
ABS Equpped Saab 9000 (non TSC/DSC) Saab 9000 on Pirelli winters up front & P6000's on the rear.
On the winters front & summers rear, the car drove like a rwd car, turning in well but progressive oversteer that could only be countered by accelerating the front to lose traction, which meant you gained speed not lost it! It was hugely entertaining.
Under braking, the car was hidously unstable & got worse the faster you went, this was extremely difficult to control. I am not joking when I say you could get the car 100% facing the wrong direction under braking at +100mph, then keep it nailed in 4th & it'd pull itself back round straight again. However you were still going fast at this point. The effect could be replicated at almost speed if there was camber involved. Amazing to do it & also great fun.
It's fine if you use this set up to get out of trouble, but get anywhere near the peak traction of the front tyres & you could easily get yourself in very big trouble. A DSC equipped car will cope much much better by briefly locking a front wheel to counteract the spin but you are relying on luck.
The car equipped with winters could get to 130mph & still stop in time on the runway, the summer equipped tyre struggled to reach 60mph & still stop in time, it was also hidously unstable at this speed & you'd often enter a spin trying to slow it down.
It can be massive fun, just not on public roads.
With Pirelli P6000's on the rear I am amazed you got any grip at all Empty snow ice covered runway, on one of the largest disused military airports in Europe.
Speeds ranged from 10mph to 130mph yes really....
ABS Equpped Saab 9000 (non TSC/DSC) Saab 9000 on Pirelli winters up front & P6000's on the rear.
On the winters front & summers rear, the car drove like a rwd car, turning in well but progressive oversteer that could only be countered by accelerating the front to lose traction, which meant you gained speed not lost it! It was hugely entertaining.
Under braking, the car was hidously unstable & got worse the faster you went, this was extremely difficult to control. I am not joking when I say you could get the car 100% facing the wrong direction under braking at +100mph, then keep it nailed in 4th & it'd pull itself back round straight again. However you were still going fast at this point. The effect could be replicated at almost speed if there was camber involved. Amazing to do it & also great fun.
It's fine if you use this set up to get out of trouble, but get anywhere near the peak traction of the front tyres & you could easily get yourself in very big trouble. A DSC equipped car will cope much much better by briefly locking a front wheel to counteract the spin but you are relying on luck.
The car equipped with winters could get to 130mph & still stop in time on the runway, the summer equipped tyre struggled to reach 60mph & still stop in time, it was also hidously unstable at this speed & you'd often enter a spin trying to slow it down.
It can be massive fun, just not on public roads.
Gassing Station | Suspension, Brakes & Tyres | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff