dent/smart repairs
Discussion
Anatol said:
Not *every* time. There was this time in 2005... ;-)
Personally i think the fact that no-one took Henry up on his challenge may be to do with the perception that his opinion on the subject isn't actually ever going to change, regardless of evidence. Trying to convince someone of something they have already decided against is a genuine pointless exercise. See his posts above - he knows nibs happen in pro booths and can be corrected just fine. But on a small repair in an uncontrolled environment, the fact that it will get nibs just means it will never be acceptable. Very inconsistent thinking. And of course, the argument from ignorance ("I've never seen this done successfully so it must be impossible...") is a rhetorical device, not actually persuasive. All it really establishes is the ignorance of the speaker.
From what I read, he wanted someone to spray a full bumper in an uncontrolled environment too. This would be illegal, and leave both him and the sprayer liable to a fine of unlimited size. Hardly surprising that no-one took it on, and he should be glad that they didn't. It was also pointed out to him at the time that the people he was inviting to his 'challenge' couldn't agree to it without being in breach of contracts they had already signed, which kept him very safe...
What is it with you and paint nibs? To clear this up once and for all. I have no issues with taking nibs off paintwork. None at all. My issue is the fact that the whole environment is uncontrolled. In winter it will be damp and cold. Yes, you can and do use a heat lamp to try and correct that but ultimately it's fighting a losing battle. The other issue is that we have a whole panel laquered after a repair meaning there is no blend in the panel, (of the laquer not the colour coat which is usually blended out to reduce panel to panel mis-match. Personally i think the fact that no-one took Henry up on his challenge may be to do with the perception that his opinion on the subject isn't actually ever going to change, regardless of evidence. Trying to convince someone of something they have already decided against is a genuine pointless exercise. See his posts above - he knows nibs happen in pro booths and can be corrected just fine. But on a small repair in an uncontrolled environment, the fact that it will get nibs just means it will never be acceptable. Very inconsistent thinking. And of course, the argument from ignorance ("I've never seen this done successfully so it must be impossible...") is a rhetorical device, not actually persuasive. All it really establishes is the ignorance of the speaker.
From what I read, he wanted someone to spray a full bumper in an uncontrolled environment too. This would be illegal, and leave both him and the sprayer liable to a fine of unlimited size. Hardly surprising that no-one took it on, and he should be glad that they didn't. It was also pointed out to him at the time that the people he was inviting to his 'challenge' couldn't agree to it without being in breach of contracts they had already signed, which kept him very safe...
Edited by Anatol on Monday 4th July 10:07
So on a scuff on the corner of the bumper the whole panel is painted (in the case of a bumper they will paint and laquer the whole lot). I see trying to blend on an easily removable panel such as a bumper nonsense. It's a bit like trying to cut your grass with scissors.
I'm not sure of the contracts you refer to that painters would have been in breach of. There was no contractual requirement on my part, just a simple handshake agreement. As for wanting the repair to fail or fail to reach required quality why would I want that? If we spent six figures per year on paintwork any savings we could make would be significant.
You are unique in having both a driveway repair side to your business and a fully functioning paintshop. I would imagine that puts you in a small (less than 1-2%) of people who do driveway paint repairs.
Henry
Henry-F said:
What is it with you and paint nibs? To clear this up once and for all. I have no issues with taking nibs off paintwork. None at all. My issue is the fact that the whole environment is uncontrolled. In winter it will be damp and cold. Yes, you can and do use a heat lamp to try and correct that but ultimately it's fighting a losing battle. The other issue is that we have a whole panel laquered after a repair meaning there is no blend in the panel, (of the laquer not the colour coat which is usually blended out to reduce panel to panel mis-match.
So on a scuff on the corner of the bumper the whole panel is painted (in the case of a bumper they will paint and laquer the whole lot). I see trying to blend on an easily removable panel such as a bumper nonsense. It's a bit like trying to cut your grass with scissors.
I'm not sure of the contracts you refer to that painters would have been in breach of. There was no contractual requirement on my part, just a simple handshake agreement. As for wanting the repair to fail or fail to reach required quality why would I want that? If we spent six figures per year on paintwork any savings we could make would be significant.
You are unique in having both a driveway repair side to your business and a fully functioning paintshop. I would imagine that puts you in a small (less than 1-2%) of people who do driveway paint repairs.
Henry
Henry, i agree with you - sadly i do not have the technical expertise to argue specific pointsSo on a scuff on the corner of the bumper the whole panel is painted (in the case of a bumper they will paint and laquer the whole lot). I see trying to blend on an easily removable panel such as a bumper nonsense. It's a bit like trying to cut your grass with scissors.
I'm not sure of the contracts you refer to that painters would have been in breach of. There was no contractual requirement on my part, just a simple handshake agreement. As for wanting the repair to fail or fail to reach required quality why would I want that? If we spent six figures per year on paintwork any savings we could make would be significant.
You are unique in having both a driveway repair side to your business and a fully functioning paintshop. I would imagine that puts you in a small (less than 1-2%) of people who do driveway paint repairs.
Henry
BUT what i do have is experience of so call SMART repairs done on a 'drive' - and a less than satisfactory finish!
the excuse was that because the job was on the 'sills' he could not get the 'lamps' into the proper position to 'cure' the paint
then wtf did he take the job on???
so i will stick to a body shop i trust
recently had a full respray of the RR bonnet - £200 cash - included removing and replacing all badges
Henry-F said:
So on a scuff on the corner of the bumper the whole panel is painted (in the case of a bumper they will paint and laquer the whole lot). I see trying to blend on an easily removable panel such as a bumper nonsense. It's a bit like trying to cut your grass with scissors.
Why spend time taking it off if it's unnecessary? Why spend time prepping the whole bumper - most of which is undamaged? Why cover perfectly good lacquer with yet more lacquer?
Surely all this unnecessary work simply increases the chances of something going wrong - whilst the removal & refitting process is an invitation for new accidental damage.
Because my experience of paint repairs is that the area most likely to cause problems is the blend. So to have all 4 sides of the repair blending into the original panel would worry me.
The proximity of most scuffs to the car / PU (plastic bumper) joint means that if you didn't remove the bumper you would end up masking into a joint and that causes problems. A good technician will be able to remove most modern plastic bumpers in no time at all. Certainly no more time than it would take to mask up.
If you are worried by the quality of your paintwork to the extent you are trying to reduce the area you spray then could I suggest you might be in the wrong job. Likelihood is that the bumper will have some stone chips and small marks on it anyway so taking it off, flatting out the marks and painting & lacquering the whole thing then re-fitting is best practice in my book. Period. Anything else is a compromise designed to cut corners.
Given it costs us £200 plus Vat to have a Porsche bumper painted in the traditional way I suspect any small financial saving using a repair on the driveway operative would be outweighed by the potential for the job to be less than perfect.
Henry.
The proximity of most scuffs to the car / PU (plastic bumper) joint means that if you didn't remove the bumper you would end up masking into a joint and that causes problems. A good technician will be able to remove most modern plastic bumpers in no time at all. Certainly no more time than it would take to mask up.
If you are worried by the quality of your paintwork to the extent you are trying to reduce the area you spray then could I suggest you might be in the wrong job. Likelihood is that the bumper will have some stone chips and small marks on it anyway so taking it off, flatting out the marks and painting & lacquering the whole thing then re-fitting is best practice in my book. Period. Anything else is a compromise designed to cut corners.
Given it costs us £200 plus Vat to have a Porsche bumper painted in the traditional way I suspect any small financial saving using a repair on the driveway operative would be outweighed by the potential for the job to be less than perfect.
Henry.
Henry-F said:
Because my experience of paint repairs is that the area most likely to cause problems is the blend.
No problems blending here mate.Henry-F said:
So to have all 4 sides of the repair blending into the original panel would worry me.
So it would seem. And it would seem you've never noticed a good blend ... which is the whole point of the exercise.Henry-F said:
A good technician will be able to remove most modern plastic bumpers in no time at all. Certainly no more time than it would take to mask up.
Masking a whole bumper would be a lengthy process (I would imagine) where as masking for a simple scuff would be significantly quicker than removing a bumperHenry-F said:
If you are worried by the quality of your paintwork to the extent you are trying to reduce the area you spray then could I suggest you might be in the wrong job.
I've got no problems with my ability to seamlessly spray and blend a small area ... it's the bodyshop guys that can't keep it small and therefore go edge to edge.Henry-F said:
Likelihood is that the bumper will have some stone chips and small marks on it anyway so taking it off....
Moving of goal posts going on here - one minute it's a simple scuff now we have a bumper covered in chips. A whole bumper doesn't fit SMART.Given a bumper scuff to repair some (if not most) bodyshops would do just that, and then simply lacquer over the remaining chips. So to work SMART and not do anything except the scuff seems little different.
Henry-F said:
Given it costs us £200 plus Vat to have a Porsche bumper painted in the traditional way.
As I previously mentioned I believe you are getting very good value for money and if you were prepared to to pass on the name of the bodyshop and if they were close enough I'm sure I could send some business their way.Henry-F said:
I suspect any small financial saving using a repair on the driveway operative would be outweighed by the potential for the job to be less than perfect.
I truely don't believe that you believe that any repair is perfect! If you're experienced, know what's been repaired and know where, how and what to look for 99.99% of any repairs (bodyshop or smart) will have a flaw.grand cherokee said:
Henry, i agree with you - sadly i do not have the technical expertise to argue specific points
BUT what i do have is experience of so call SMART repairs done on a 'drive' - and a less than satisfactory finish!
the excuse was that because the job was on the 'sills' he could not get the 'lamps' into the proper position to 'cure' the paint
then wtf did he take the job on???
so i will stick to a body shop i trust
recently had a full respray of the RR bonnet - £200 cash - included removing and replacing all badges
Again you're tarring us all with the same brush from your one bad experience.BUT what i do have is experience of so call SMART repairs done on a 'drive' - and a less than satisfactory finish!
the excuse was that because the job was on the 'sills' he could not get the 'lamps' into the proper position to 'cure' the paint
then wtf did he take the job on???
so i will stick to a body shop i trust
recently had a full respray of the RR bonnet - £200 cash - included removing and replacing all badges
Without knowing what vehicle you had this work done on I would strongly suspect that the lamping of the sills was not the problem as most lamps can be taken off their stands and laid on the floor - and you can't get much lower than the floor.
The more likely problem was that he couldn't get his gun under the sills.
I have a uv joint on my guns to help me spray down low - but in most instances this still won't allow me to get under a sill. Again in most instances the vehicle would need to be jacked up and put on axle stands or run up a couple ramps.
I don't have room to carry that equipment so I refer most sill jobs to a bodyshop
It does sound as if you choose someone with limited experience, someone that simply bit of more than he could chew or somebody that is just plain irresponsible. Did he come recommended to you?
Whatever the case your experience of one bad repair doesn't make all smart repairs, or more especially all smart repairers bad.
Heaven forbid you ever get a bad bodyshop job (cos they're not infallible you know!) It could cause you steer clear of all bodyshops and bad mouth all those that worked in them.
Henry-F said:
What is it with you and paint nibs? To clear this up once and for all. I have no issues with taking nibs off paintwork. None at all.
Ah. That's quite a change to your previous comments on this issue: Henry-F said:
With a spray booth you pay lots of money to reduce dust and other airborne distractions to a perfect finish. This is not the case when painting in someone`s driveway.
Henry-F said:
My issue is the fact that the whole environment is uncontrolled. In winter it will be damp and cold. Yes, you can and do use a heat lamp to try and correct that but ultimately it's fighting a losing battle.
Ok, you are working under a couple of mistaken assumptions here.Humidity:
Spraybooths draw their air from the local environment. The humidity control employed is typically thoroughly drying the air used for spraying the coatings. This is done by adding an air dryer to the compressor plant. There is nothing to stop a mobile repairer doing this.
The heating plant in the booth does not dehumidify. If you heat humid air, it does not dry, you just get warm, humid air. In fact, direct-fired gas ovens often *add* humidity to the air.
Legislation has meant that water is used as a transport solvent in the majority of modern sprayed automotive coatings. The chemistry of those coatings has therefore had to evolve - the presence of humidity isn't a problem, it's an expected factor.
So, your assumption that typical environmental UK humidity is either a problem in painting, and that it's something controlled for in a spraybooth environment (outside of the airlines), is not correct.
Temperature:
The spray distances involved in localised spraying are much closer than in conventional, often 4-5 inches. The transfer efficiency is much higher, and the time the spray spends airborne negligible. The critical factor is actually the panel temperature, not the air temp. TDS will dictate an optimal panel temp - usually 20-30 degrees. Given that localised spraying is for small areas only by law, raising the temperature of a small area of a panel to 20 degrees is no difficulty whatsoever with a small amount of SWIR. What actually *can* be a problem is if ambient temperatures are too high, and the panel cannot be kept below 30 - but on the rare days that this happens, the effect is exactly the same inside a spraybooth.
So describing temperature control as fighting a losing battle is also simply not correct.
Henry-F said:
The other issue is that we have a whole panel laquered after a repair meaning there is no blend in the panel, (of the laquer not the colour coat which is usually blended out to reduce panel to panel mis-match.
Achieving an invisible lacquer blend is a particular skill. Many conventional repairers don't have it. However many do - on very large numbers of cars, the lower sills, rear quarters, roof, C-posts, upper sills and A-posts are a single skin of metal. If a lacquer blend was impossible, on every single repair of a scuff on the rear wheelarch on such a car, that entire area would need to be re-clearcoated. What actually happens in the vast majority of cases is that the lacquer is lost up the C-post. And if a bodyshop presented an estimate to an insurer to lacquer the roof and opposite side of the car for damage on one side, they'd be laughed at.Blends are used by competent bodyshops every day.
Henry-F said:
So on a scuff on the corner of the bumper the whole panel is painted (in the case of a bumper they will paint and laquer the whole lot). I see trying to blend on an easily removable panel such as a bumper nonsense. It's a bit like trying to cut your grass with scissors.
Customers disagree. They much prefer the convenience of not losing their car for several days when it can be out of action for just a few hours. And while you may want to look down your nose at the option, we've had more than one customer in the last year who mentioned they'd bought the Porsche we were repairing for them using these techniques from you, and mentioned the thread where we discussed this issue on the Porsche forum with a wry smile as to your approach. (And to show there's no hard feelings, we sent a customer who we've done more repairs for than I can count to you when she was looking for a Porsche last year, and she took a Turbo off you (which we have since repaired) - your customer base seems to disagree with you on whether or not these repairs are acceptable.Henry-F said:
I'm not sure of the contracts you refer to that painters would have been in breach of. There was no contractual requirement on my part, just a simple handshake agreement. As for wanting the repair to fail or fail to reach required quality why would I want that? If we spent six figures per year on paintwork any savings we could make would be significant.
Ah, perhaps the point wasn't put across effectively then - the people you were inviting to your challenge are required by their licence contracts not to carry out repairs outside a defined geographic area. Accepting your 'challenge' would put them in breach of contract.As for why would you want the repair to be unsatisfactory - well, even on your home Porsche forum when this debate was had before, the other Porsche aficionados on there were suggesting that you were flogging a dead horse when your arguments had been rather soundly deflated. You do come across as prejudiced about this issue. If memory serves, I bowed out of that debate because you seemed not to be interested in considering first-hand evidence that contradicted your opinions - and when you continued still further, the moderators locked the topic? That didn't exactly present your intellectual honesty in the best light (though I know we can all get the bit between our teeth in an Internet debate).
Henry-F said:
You are unique in having both a driveway repair side to your business and a fully functioning paintshop. I would imagine that puts you in a small (less than 1-2%) of people who do driveway paint repairs.
Yes indeed - and that means that I am in the unique position of having been able to compare the two technologies while controlling for all other factors. From that experience, I'm telling you that your opinion is not borne out by the facts. It's a great shame that you feel the need to rubbish an entire industry based on your limited experience. Because you're in the trade, people may assume you know what you're talking about. Please take it from someone who runs both a conventional bodyshop and mobile repairs - for the right bits of damage, mobile repairs can achieve an equivalent finish that delights customers.
Anatol said:
Henry-F said:
What is it with you and paint nibs? To clear this up once and for all. I have no issues with taking nibs off paintwork. None at all.
Ah. That's quite a change to your previous comments on this issue: Henry-F said:
With a spray booth you pay lots of money to reduce dust and other airborne distractions to a perfect finish. This is not the case when painting in someone`s driveway.
Henry-F said:
My issue is the fact that the whole environment is uncontrolled. In winter it will be damp and cold. Yes, you can and do use a heat lamp to try and correct that but ultimately it's fighting a losing battle.
Ok, you are working under a couple of mistaken assumptions here.Humidity:
Spraybooths draw their air from the local environment. The humidity control employed is typically thoroughly drying the air used for spraying the coatings. This is done by adding an air dryer to the compressor plant. There is nothing to stop a mobile repairer doing this.
The heating plant in the booth does not dehumidify. If you heat humid air, it does not dry, you just get warm, humid air. In fact, direct-fired gas ovens often *add* humidity to the air.
Legislation has meant that water is used as a transport solvent in the majority of modern sprayed automotive coatings. The chemistry of those coatings has therefore had to evolve - the presence of humidity isn't a problem, it's an expected factor.
So, your assumption that typical environmental UK humidity is either a problem in painting, and that it's something controlled for in a spraybooth environment (outside of the airlines), is not correct.
Temperature:
The spray distances involved in localised spraying are much closer than in conventional, often 4-5 inches. The transfer efficiency is much higher, and the time the spray spends airborne negligible. The critical factor is actually the panel temperature, not the air temp. TDS will dictate an optimal panel temp - usually 20-30 degrees. Given that localised spraying is for small areas only by law, raising the temperature of a small area of a panel to 20 degrees is no difficulty whatsoever with a small amount of SWIR. What actually *can* be a problem is if ambient temperatures are too high, and the panel cannot be kept below 30 - but on the rare days that this happens, the effect is exactly the same inside a spraybooth.
So describing temperature control as fighting a losing battle is also simply not correct.
Henry-F said:
The other issue is that we have a whole panel laquered after a repair meaning there is no blend in the panel, (of the laquer not the colour coat which is usually blended out to reduce panel to panel mis-match.
Achieving an invisible lacquer blend is a particular skill. Many conventional repairers don't have it. However many do - on very large numbers of cars, the lower sills, rear quarters, roof, C-posts, upper sills and A-posts are a single skin of metal. If a lacquer blend was impossible, on every single repair of a scuff on the rear wheelarch on such a car, that entire area would need to be re-clearcoated. What actually happens in the vast majority of cases is that the lacquer is lost up the C-post. And if a bodyshop presented an estimate to an insurer to lacquer the roof and opposite side of the car for damage on one side, they'd be laughed at.Blends are used by competent bodyshops every day.
Henry-F said:
So on a scuff on the corner of the bumper the whole panel is painted (in the case of a bumper they will paint and laquer the whole lot). I see trying to blend on an easily removable panel such as a bumper nonsense. It's a bit like trying to cut your grass with scissors.
Customers disagree. They much prefer the convenience of not losing their car for several days when it can be out of action for just a few hours. And while you may want to look down your nose at the option, we've had more than one customer in the last year who mentioned they'd bought the Porsche we were repairing for them using these techniques from you, and mentioned the thread where we discussed this issue on the Porsche forum with a wry smile as to your approach. (And to show there's no hard feelings, we sent a customer who we've done more repairs for than I can count to you when she was looking for a Porsche last year, and she took a Turbo off you (which we have since repaired) - your customer base seems to disagree with you on whether or not these repairs are acceptable.Henry-F said:
I'm not sure of the contracts you refer to that painters would have been in breach of. There was no contractual requirement on my part, just a simple handshake agreement. As for wanting the repair to fail or fail to reach required quality why would I want that? If we spent six figures per year on paintwork any savings we could make would be significant.
Ah, perhaps the point wasn't put across effectively then - the people you were inviting to your challenge are required by their licence contracts not to carry out repairs outside a defined geographic area. Accepting your 'challenge' would put them in breach of contract.As for why would you want the repair to be unsatisfactory - well, even on your home Porsche forum when this debate was had before, the other Porsche aficionados on there were suggesting that you were flogging a dead horse when your arguments had been rather soundly deflated. You do come across as prejudiced about this issue. If memory serves, I bowed out of that debate because you seemed not to be interested in considering first-hand evidence that contradicted your opinions - and when you continued still further, the moderators locked the topic? That didn't exactly present your intellectual honesty in the best light (though I know we can all get the bit between our teeth in an Internet debate).
Henry-F said:
You are unique in having both a driveway repair side to your business and a fully functioning paintshop. I would imagine that puts you in a small (less than 1-2%) of people who do driveway paint repairs.
Yes indeed - and that means that I am in the unique position of having been able to compare the two technologies while controlling for all other factors. From that experience, I'm telling you that your opinion is not borne out by the facts. It's a great shame that you feel the need to rubbish an entire industry based on your limited experience. Because you're in the trade, people may assume you know what you're talking about. Please take it from someone who runs both a conventional bodyshop and mobile repairs - for the right bits of damage, mobile repairs can achieve an equivalent finish that delights customers.
Squiggs said:
Again you're tarring us all with the same brush from your one bad experience.
Without knowing what vehicle you had this work done on I would strongly suspect that the lamping of the sills was not the problem as most lamps can be taken off their stands and laid on the floor - and you can't get much lower than the floor.
The more likely problem was that he couldn't get his gun under the sills.
I have a uv joint on my guns to help me spray down low - but in most instances this still won't allow me to get under a sill. Again in most instances the vehicle would need to be jacked up and put on axle stands or run up a couple ramps.
I don't have room to carry that equipment so I refer most sill jobs to a bodyshop
It does sound as if you choose someone with limited experience, someone that simply bit of more than he could chew or somebody that is just plain irresponsible. Did he come recommended to you?
Whatever the case your experience of one bad repair doesn't make all smart repairs, or more especially all smart repairers bad.
Heaven forbid you ever get a bad bodyshop job (cos they're not infallible you know!) It could cause you steer clear of all bodyshops and bad mouth all those that worked in them.
excuses againWithout knowing what vehicle you had this work done on I would strongly suspect that the lamping of the sills was not the problem as most lamps can be taken off their stands and laid on the floor - and you can't get much lower than the floor.
The more likely problem was that he couldn't get his gun under the sills.
I have a uv joint on my guns to help me spray down low - but in most instances this still won't allow me to get under a sill. Again in most instances the vehicle would need to be jacked up and put on axle stands or run up a couple ramps.
I don't have room to carry that equipment so I refer most sill jobs to a bodyshop
It does sound as if you choose someone with limited experience, someone that simply bit of more than he could chew or somebody that is just plain irresponsible. Did he come recommended to you?
Whatever the case your experience of one bad repair doesn't make all smart repairs, or more especially all smart repairers bad.
Heaven forbid you ever get a bad bodyshop job (cos they're not infallible you know!) It could cause you steer clear of all bodyshops and bad mouth all those that worked in them.
axle stands no less - a GC on a slope?
you have more excuses than a menopausal female - LOL
and recommendation - yes - chips way own web site (who license the person!) - what more do you expect?
I think Grand Cherokee & Henry-F have shown their true colours now. They refuse to accept the factual & provable statements from people in the trade and will not let go of their obvious prejudices even when presented with flaws in their own arguments.
This topic seems to have run its course and from Anatol's comments appears to have been down the same route before elsewhere - again, proof that the participants are unable to understand or absorb the information presented to them.
I frequently have to perform SMART repairs in areas where a previous bodyshop repair is apparent. On questioning the customer, they have accepted the poor repair simply because they don't want to lose their car for a week again! Some of the lacquer blends I've seen from bodyshops are laughable and any skilled SMART repairer would be ashamed to leave work like that.
Our skills are in keeping it small - that involves specialist techniques and equipment - we take our businesses seriously. I just wish Grand Cherokee and Henry-F would accept that.
Cheers
David
This topic seems to have run its course and from Anatol's comments appears to have been down the same route before elsewhere - again, proof that the participants are unable to understand or absorb the information presented to them.
I frequently have to perform SMART repairs in areas where a previous bodyshop repair is apparent. On questioning the customer, they have accepted the poor repair simply because they don't want to lose their car for a week again! Some of the lacquer blends I've seen from bodyshops are laughable and any skilled SMART repairer would be ashamed to leave work like that.
Our skills are in keeping it small - that involves specialist techniques and equipment - we take our businesses seriously. I just wish Grand Cherokee and Henry-F would accept that.
Cheers
David
Vette said:
I think Grand Cherokee & Henry-F have shown their true colours now. They refuse to accept the factual & provable statements from people in the trade and will not let go of their obvious prejudices even when presented with flaws in their own arguments.
This topic seems to have run its course and from Anatol's comments appears to have been down the same route before elsewhere - again, proof that the participants are unable to understand or absorb the information presented to them.
I frequently have to perform SMART repairs in areas where a previous bodyshop repair is apparent. On questioning the customer, they have accepted the poor repair simply because they don't want to lose their car for a week again! Some of the lacquer blends I've seen from bodyshops are laughable and any skilled SMART repairer would be ashamed to leave work like that.
Our skills are in keeping it small - that involves specialist techniques and equipment - we take our businesses seriously. I just wish Grand Cherokee and Henry-F would accept that.
Cheers
David
oh - its 'our' fault now?This topic seems to have run its course and from Anatol's comments appears to have been down the same route before elsewhere - again, proof that the participants are unable to understand or absorb the information presented to them.
I frequently have to perform SMART repairs in areas where a previous bodyshop repair is apparent. On questioning the customer, they have accepted the poor repair simply because they don't want to lose their car for a week again! Some of the lacquer blends I've seen from bodyshops are laughable and any skilled SMART repairer would be ashamed to leave work like that.
Our skills are in keeping it small - that involves specialist techniques and equipment - we take our businesses seriously. I just wish Grand Cherokee and Henry-F would accept that.
Cheers
David
i and henry have told 'it' how we have found SMART repairs - you do not like our 'conclusions'?
at the end of the day - each to there own but i'd not let a SMART repairer near the hamster cage
oh, you can moan and groan 'its not me' - well if you are part of the SMART team it is you!
grand cherokee said:
i and henry have told 'it' how we have found SMART repairs - you do not like our 'conclusions'?
Have you really found "SMART repairs" though? Or actually a very limited number of examples (or perhaps in your case a single example)?I've met a few extraordinarily rude and dishonest car dealers. I would never dream of extending that experience out to draw conclusions about car dealers in general. The technical term for that sort of thing is prejudice. It's not a 'conclusion' that will be persuasive to anyone rational.
grand cherokee said:
excuses again
axle stands no less - a GC on a slope?
you have more excuses than a menopausal female - LOL
and recommendation - yes - chips way own web site (who license the person!) - what more do you expect?
No excuses mate, as I've tried to point out you it sounds as if you got a raw deal!axle stands no less - a GC on a slope?
you have more excuses than a menopausal female - LOL
and recommendation - yes - chips way own web site (who license the person!) - what more do you expect?
When I said recommendation I meant personal recommendation.
No two people in any one trade - brickies, tyre fitters, barbers, dentist etc, etc, will have the same skill sets nor experience or time in the trade.
I don't like to gamble so I tend to only use trades people that come personally recommended and that are personally established in their trade.
I don't think this thread is advertising SMART - more of a defence (brought about by an unfortunate bad experience and simple narrow mindedness) which is stating the facts on behalf of a large number of individuals who are fully competent in completing satisfactory repairs and rely upon their skills to bring in the money to put food on their tables.
If the boot was on the other foot and I starting ranting on about someone in your chosen profession, and then based on my experience of that one individual started ranting on about how everybody within your profession had a total lack of ability, whilst somebody else gave totally unfounded mis-information and slated your profession as a whole - all to the possible detriment of your pay packet I'm sure you and others in the same profession would want to dispel the misconceptions, state the facts and stand up for yourselves.
May I also add that without trawling through the posts and therefore not having the full facts to hand I didn't want to maybe wrongly assume purely from your forum name that your vehicle in question was a Grand Cherokee(if in fact it has been mentioned?) For all I knew you may have had North American blood running through your veins.
I'm pretty sure you could put a GK on axle stands (I wait to be corrected) but as I'm not psychic I couldn't possibly have known the work was undertaken on a slope.
Unlike yourself I like to deal with facts!
I don't assume things about people which has lead you to wrongly believe all SMART repaiers are bad, nor do I hold psychic powers which seem to have led you to wrongly conclude that a SMART repair will never work.
In light of these huge differences between us I'm going to have to wave a white flag and leave you with your psychic powers, assumptions and beliefs - 'cos however wrong they maybe it's clear you'll never trust the facts.
Edited by Squiggs on Tuesday 5th July 17:29
First of all thank you very much for recommending us Anatol. We are clearly both passionate about delivering good service and it's humbling to think of your advising someone to buy from us in spite of our differences in opinion.
As a group of smart repairers you all pull together when people question your techniques or the suitability of smart repair as a technique. You obviously have a vested interest in the success and acceptance of driveway repairs. Myself and others questioning driveway repairs have nothing to gain from putting the process down. In fact in my case I could well profit from using the methods but I choose to continue with traditional repair techniques fuelled by some truly atrocious driveway repairs seen in the past. Others will also have seen similar failures hence their comments.
You can talk the processes up as loudly as you want but because of your vested interests I'm not sure your words carry much weight. Especially when coupled with comments such as "I don't remove trim when doing repairs because a few spanners and some screwdrivers would take up too much space in my van". I really think the answer is to arrange a trial repair when people question your abilities. In my case we are on the outskirts of London with Slough, Uxbridge, Harrow, Watford and even Reading close by. Surely there is someone capable in such a sizeable catchment. As for being in breach of contract I really can't see a franchise operator chastising a franchisee who is trying to fly the flag for your techniques.
Anatol, you are unique in having both a traditional body shop and a mobile capability. You must realise though that very few other operators have this luxury and the temptation for them to push the techniques beyond what is safe is just too great. Particularly if they have travelled to attend the booking and have committed half a day or a day to the job. Rather than waste the day they crack on and everyone has seen the results.
Anyway, as has been said we have probably reached an impasse.
Once again Anatol thank you very much for recommending us. The proof of the pudding will be when it comes time to sell it back to us. Will we crab it on paint repairs
As ever mate, keep smiling.
Henry
As a group of smart repairers you all pull together when people question your techniques or the suitability of smart repair as a technique. You obviously have a vested interest in the success and acceptance of driveway repairs. Myself and others questioning driveway repairs have nothing to gain from putting the process down. In fact in my case I could well profit from using the methods but I choose to continue with traditional repair techniques fuelled by some truly atrocious driveway repairs seen in the past. Others will also have seen similar failures hence their comments.
You can talk the processes up as loudly as you want but because of your vested interests I'm not sure your words carry much weight. Especially when coupled with comments such as "I don't remove trim when doing repairs because a few spanners and some screwdrivers would take up too much space in my van". I really think the answer is to arrange a trial repair when people question your abilities. In my case we are on the outskirts of London with Slough, Uxbridge, Harrow, Watford and even Reading close by. Surely there is someone capable in such a sizeable catchment. As for being in breach of contract I really can't see a franchise operator chastising a franchisee who is trying to fly the flag for your techniques.
Anatol, you are unique in having both a traditional body shop and a mobile capability. You must realise though that very few other operators have this luxury and the temptation for them to push the techniques beyond what is safe is just too great. Particularly if they have travelled to attend the booking and have committed half a day or a day to the job. Rather than waste the day they crack on and everyone has seen the results.
Anyway, as has been said we have probably reached an impasse.
Once again Anatol thank you very much for recommending us. The proof of the pudding will be when it comes time to sell it back to us. Will we crab it on paint repairs
As ever mate, keep smiling.
Henry
Tols and indeed any Smart repairers (franchised or independent) practices maybe different from mine (we are all individuals).
Your last post suggests that nobody removes trim. This will not be true. I said that I don't remove lights, that I would refer a job that needed a light removing to a bodyshop.
Apart from personally not carrying all the tools required (a few spanners and a few screwdrivers .. makes you wonder what bodyshops keep in the other drawers in their array of snap-on chests?) this is because I personally feel that removing trim whilst working mobile is inviting more problems (breakages, the loss of a nut or bolt etc)
And with no spares on board it would not endear me to my customer base if I were to say 'I've finished the job but you can't use your car (there's a nut missing, an electrical contact has snapped, etc, etc) I'll have to source one, I'll be back tomorrow'.
There are personal limits to what each repairer will take on (as with bodyshops) I feel comfortable with within my limits.
Your last post suggests that nobody removes trim. This will not be true. I said that I don't remove lights, that I would refer a job that needed a light removing to a bodyshop.
Apart from personally not carrying all the tools required (a few spanners and a few screwdrivers .. makes you wonder what bodyshops keep in the other drawers in their array of snap-on chests?) this is because I personally feel that removing trim whilst working mobile is inviting more problems (breakages, the loss of a nut or bolt etc)
And with no spares on board it would not endear me to my customer base if I were to say 'I've finished the job but you can't use your car (there's a nut missing, an electrical contact has snapped, etc, etc) I'll have to source one, I'll be back tomorrow'.
There are personal limits to what each repairer will take on (as with bodyshops) I feel comfortable with within my limits.
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