Orange peel removal!!
Discussion
This is why I am in the process of "trying" to write a wet sanding package menu for my new website.
But has been the hardest thing to try and work out costing.
I wrote recently to a customer asking for price of wet sanding this
"The orange peel packages we don’t advertise yet , had a new website over a year ago (but still needs more./new content to cover such items which is done by myself) just too busy to finish it at present.
The best course of action is to view the car when it’s dropped off and then we can assess the finish and guide you through what’s best.
I have had to say no to a few cars that have wanted the wet sanding process due to lack of top coat lacquer meant there was not enough scope for full wet sanding, we carry out many wet sand details, and sometimes it too greatly improve the finish but not fully remove orange peel, it’s actually a complex long process with many variables another reason for not placing it on my existing site."
so then he asked for a price without me seeing the car , I get at least 4 enquires each month and many more advice calls and emails (normally saying it’s taking a lot longer than 2 days what I am doing wrong after reading it can be done that quickly)asking how to wet sand.
I think we have had this week 3 guys ringing for advice halfway through the process and in trouble.
The next email to explain how the process can be change to suit level and budget
"This can also be dealt with next week if you wish.
Right wet sanding is a complex process, but briefly
By hand wet sanding (slower process but best way)
We can part wet sand the car (to reduce cost) in many ways
Wet sand half the car, the top half only.
Wet sand all car but only remove half’ish of the orange peel on entire car.
Wet sand half of the car only removing half’ish of the orange (top of the car)
Lastly to wet sand the entire car.
Then all of the above using sanding machines (slightly faster process , but not best results)
So you can see almost 10 options .
Then until we start wet sanding the car we can’t actually tell how long the process is going to take, due to the depth of orange peel to remove or how hard the paint is, this of course will make it longer if the paint is of hard nature.
We normally quote between £x000-£x000 for complete wet sand detail.
As this takes from 60 – 90 hours’ work, if it takes longer than we quoted then we take the hit on extra time and don’t pass it on as a cost.
If you want to wet sand part of the car or all then you will need a 3 stage correction IE gold correction.
If you choose silver detail then no wet sanding can be done before hand, it’s not enough correction stages on a silver detail to fully correct the paint after sanding process."
The guy booked in for entire car wet sand removing most of the orange peel but leaving safe amount of clear coat for future correction details and health in the paint itself.
So tell me how can someone wet sand without taking paint depth readings , I mean layer readings so to give exact layer reading of clear coat (the bit you sanding and the protection for the colour base coat and car itself) firstly , then take readings throughout the process to establish the removal amount.
Then until you start wet sanding you don’t actually know how hard the paint is and how deep the orange peel is,
I have wet sanded many brand new BWM mainly M3's some have been so hard and bad taken 100 hours , then the next car takes 60 hours to do exactly the same process and results due to softer paint and orange peel is not so deep.
A black car will need longer better machine correction than a silver car, maybe half the time.
So unless you establish all of the variables first and have the equipment to measure the paint ( I turn away more brand new cars then a wet sand due to lack of clear coat) , please tell me how the hell you can give a time scale and quote then.
This is the highest form of Detailing and vehicle refinishing, if you were to compare it to humans skin i.e. the face.
You can have make up applied by a friend , family member or even make artist and you will look younger and hopefully better = valeting / light detailing .This process is low on skill level and risk and can be done almost anywhere with little equipment
This is removed very easily.
Then you have your Botox and fillers and other acid chemicals to fill in flaws and even remove very light layer of skin = the normal detailing machine correction , longer lasting depending on how you look after your post light op , same for the car. This needs higher skill level and the risk goes up with it and you need certain conditions to do the best job possible and more specialised equipment.
Not so hard to removal
Then full on face lift surgery to make the smoothest possible look = wet sanding (like Aston Martin / Bentley)
And full machine correction, this is permanent. This is the highest level possible and the highest level of skill , know how equipment and conditions in which to do so PLUS insurance too.
Again not trying to attack anyone more to show why its more than
"can i have that service where you jet wash my car with wet sand to remove the orange and how much would it be"
" you rub down all the lacquer till fully removed then polish up the colour coat underneath", this very quote is on Detailing world by one of the very best know detailing companys as advice for faded paint and so wrong on every level.
"i told my friends that you remove all the lacquer then replace it with a special hard "detailing" product"
"can i book in for machine correction now and then save up next year and just have the orange peel removal next year" yes you can if you wish to have a shiny car first year and matt one next year!!!
"can i use sand paper from wikes"
From youtube a comment to a fully wet sanded car i show cased , "your a con man i could do that with my XXXX butter best wax as it removes all the orange peel and only takes me 20 minutes to do not 60 hours"
The list is endless
Kelly
lol, the 'can I use sand paper from Wickes' question is funny. I hope you replied 'step away from the car'!
I recently had a black car wet sanded locally by a body shop I know and trust who do a lot of Rolls and classic Aston stuff (so craftsmen rather than just sprayers). It was a partial wet sand to address the worst of the orange peel and was done with a machine, probably with a touch of hand finishing. I'm delighted with the results (night and day) and it cost me nowhere near £1,000. This was wet sanding and mopping only, no detailing, per se, was done. The wet sanded panels now look better than any factory paintwork I've seen, so I'm happy
I recently had a black car wet sanded locally by a body shop I know and trust who do a lot of Rolls and classic Aston stuff (so craftsmen rather than just sprayers). It was a partial wet sand to address the worst of the orange peel and was done with a machine, probably with a touch of hand finishing. I'm delighted with the results (night and day) and it cost me nowhere near £1,000. This was wet sanding and mopping only, no detailing, per se, was done. The wet sanded panels now look better than any factory paintwork I've seen, so I'm happy
Interesting thread. German manufacturers have been putting out paintwork like this for decades.
Back in the day, my father's Morris ital had paintwork like glass from the factory, whereas my mk1 golf had orange peel from manufacture.
Remember the perception at the time being that orange peel was somehow better, as it was thicker!
Back in the day, my father's Morris ital had paintwork like glass from the factory, whereas my mk1 golf had orange peel from manufacture.
Remember the perception at the time being that orange peel was somehow better, as it was thicker!
Jayzee said:
Interesting thread. German manufacturers have been putting out paintwork like this for decades.
Back in the day, my father's Morris ital had paintwork like glass from the factory, whereas my mk1 golf had orange peel from manufacture.
Remember the perception at the time being that orange peel was somehow better, as it was thicker!
Different paint materials and systems you are comparing thou . Back in the day, my father's Morris ital had paintwork like glass from the factory, whereas my mk1 golf had orange peel from manufacture.
Remember the perception at the time being that orange peel was somehow better, as it was thicker!
but I do get your point , a korean car has better paint finish than some very expensive German cars in todays market
kelly
I know there's going to be a logical answer to this but I'm going to ask anyway.
Whenever I read about, hear or see anything about wet sanding it's always flat with 2000 then polish back up (OK I know there's more to it than that - but essentially that's the process)
But why only use 2000? Why not go finer after the 2000 ... a finer trizact for example? Surely that would make the polishing process quicker/easier?
Whenever I read about, hear or see anything about wet sanding it's always flat with 2000 then polish back up (OK I know there's more to it than that - but essentially that's the process)
But why only use 2000? Why not go finer after the 2000 ... a finer trizact for example? Surely that would make the polishing process quicker/easier?
Squiggs said:
I know there's going to be a logical answer to this but I'm going to ask anyway.
Whenever I read about, hear or see anything about wet sanding it's always flat with 2000 then polish back up (OK I know there's more to it than that - but essentially that's the process)
But why only use 2000? Why not go finer after the 2000 ... a finer trizact for example? Surely that would make the polishing process quicker/easier?
you have been reading that on detailing world i guess , Whenever I read about, hear or see anything about wet sanding it's always flat with 2000 then polish back up (OK I know there's more to it than that - but essentially that's the process)
But why only use 2000? Why not go finer after the 2000 ... a finer trizact for example? Surely that would make the polishing process quicker/easier?
A lot of guys start with 2500 grit or even 3000 grit and this does not fully flatten the orange peel BUT does give a good matt photo thou.
I was flamed down when i first starting posting on 2 forums this one and detailing world of my wet sanding does not work and does not removal orange peel fully and "ITS ALL FOR FANCY PHOTOS AND ADVERTISING" , this was after they had a go with sanding using the wrong process and wrong grit of paper.
so the reason behind the flaming down , i do know that some of the DW members have travelled to actually look at the wet sanding work as they dont believe it.
I really cant see how i could be wet sanding fresh new paint , old weathered paint , and fresh aftermarket paint on many cars per year and still be booking in for such if it was for fancy photos, this is detailing world view on paint shop training and years of wet sanding
i use 1500 grit to start with maybe 1200 if very hard tough paint then work through the grades to refine the sanding marks up to 4000 grit.
the quickest way is to link to this thread of a detailer that had some training
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
in this thread (which i have never fully read (yet)) is the info on what when and how , but more importantly its is easy to remove 10-15 microns of paint with one pass of a machine polisher (in 3 minutes machine polishing) (this would be over the amount allowed to stay within paint tolerances on a new car) but wet sanding can only take off around 6-8 microns from slow careful wet sanding (and this process will take around 30-60 mins to complete on a square area) .
But wet sanding with wrong cut and wrong style can also remove far more than needed to flatten orange peel but will be much fast in the process.
kelly
Edited by kds keltec on Saturday 30th June 15:27
Squiggs said:
I understand the not starting with finer than 2000 but I wasn't being stupid in thinking it might be better to finish with finer then?
Yep i know your not stupid ,was writing it for all to understand , I work through all the grades up to 400 grit gives much better finish thats much easier to machine correct back. the fact that wet sanding removes paint material 5-10 times slower than a machine polisher , but had 100's of so called detailers in the past saying publicly that its dangerous to wet sand due to clear coat failure told me everything i needed to know about their knowledge , you will find it very hard and long winded to rub through an edge when wet sanding , but can burn through with in seconds with a machine polisher with one wrong pass.
So finishing with highest possible cut will be much better for less removal of total paint and much less aggressive compound cut will be needed which is much kinder to the paint material.
BUT THIS TAKES LONGER THAN A DAY
Kelly
kds keltec said:
you have been reading that on detailing world i guess ,
A lot of guys start with 2500 grit or even 3000 grit and this does not fully flatten the orange peel BUT does give a good matt photo thou.
I was flamed down when i first starting posting on 2 forums this one and detailing world of my wet sanding does not work and does not removal orange peel fully and "ITS ALL FOR FANCY PHOTOS AND ADVERTISING" , this was after they had a go with sanding using the wrong process and wrong grit of paper.
so the reason behind the flaming down , i do know that some of the DW members have travelled to actually look at the wet sanding work as they dont believe it.
I really cant see how i could be wet sanding fresh new paint , old weathered paint , and fresh aftermarket paint on many cars per year and still be booking in for such if it was for fancy photos, this is detailing world view on paint shop training and years of wet sanding
i use 1500 grit to start with maybe 1200 if very hard tough paint then work through the grades to refine the sanding marks up to 4000 grit.
the quickest way is to link to this thread of a detailer that had some training
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
in this thread (which i have never fully read (yet)) is the info on what when and how , but more importantly its is easy to remove 10-15 microns of paint with one pass of a machine polisher (in 3 minutes machine polishing) (this would be over the amount allowed to stay within paint tolerances on a new car) but wet sanding can only take off around 6-8 microns from slow careful wet sanding (and this process will take around 30-60 mins to complete on a square area) .
But wet sanding with wrong cut and wrong style can also remove far more than needed to flatten orange peel but will be much fast in the process.
kelly
That's my thread from DW and I can only echo Kelly's comments on this thread. Even now I'm simply stunned by the finish we were able to achieve on my Edition 30. The levels of clarity and gloss are simply not possible from detailing alone but as stated in this thread, done properly and safely (in terms of removing as little as possible) this process takes a great deal of time - at least 40-50 hours per car (although this will depend on hardness and depth as discussed elsewhere on here).A lot of guys start with 2500 grit or even 3000 grit and this does not fully flatten the orange peel BUT does give a good matt photo thou.
I was flamed down when i first starting posting on 2 forums this one and detailing world of my wet sanding does not work and does not removal orange peel fully and "ITS ALL FOR FANCY PHOTOS AND ADVERTISING" , this was after they had a go with sanding using the wrong process and wrong grit of paper.
so the reason behind the flaming down , i do know that some of the DW members have travelled to actually look at the wet sanding work as they dont believe it.
I really cant see how i could be wet sanding fresh new paint , old weathered paint , and fresh aftermarket paint on many cars per year and still be booking in for such if it was for fancy photos, this is detailing world view on paint shop training and years of wet sanding
i use 1500 grit to start with maybe 1200 if very hard tough paint then work through the grades to refine the sanding marks up to 4000 grit.
the quickest way is to link to this thread of a detailer that had some training
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
in this thread (which i have never fully read (yet)) is the info on what when and how , but more importantly its is easy to remove 10-15 microns of paint with one pass of a machine polisher (in 3 minutes machine polishing) (this would be over the amount allowed to stay within paint tolerances on a new car) but wet sanding can only take off around 6-8 microns from slow careful wet sanding (and this process will take around 30-60 mins to complete on a square area) .
But wet sanding with wrong cut and wrong style can also remove far more than needed to flatten orange peel but will be much fast in the process.
kelly
Edited by kds keltec on Saturday 30th June 15:27
I'm currently in the process of wet sanding a silver BMW 335D and also about to change my Ed30 for a BMW 135i in grey so hopefully able to show again what can be achieved, but this time of much 'worse' peeled BMW clearcoat.
I have seen a couple of other wet sanded cars recently and up close you can see a flurry or 'scorelines' and the finish overall, whilst arguably better than it was originally (from a flatness perspective) is hardly as impressive as a properly wet sanded car, not to mention the unknown factor around how much clearcoat has been removed. The most recent example I saw was a black BMW which was apparently 2000'd then compounded with Fast Cut Plus (filler heavy) and left. Flatter? Yes. Acceptable from my perspective? Absolutely not. To do this in 1-2 days I'd imagine this is all that can be achieved. This Squiggs leads onto your question - I always work back up through the grades so 2500, 3000 and 4000 THEN machine polish. Firstly its easier to remove the finer sanding marks. Secondly the overall finish benefits significantly in terms of sharpness and levels of gloss. Finally, as shown in my DW thread, you are in fact removing less clearcoat this way as the heavy compounding required to remove the 2000 grit COULD remove more clearcoat than needed (and also potentially fill!).
Russ.
I agree with Kelly and Russ, wet sanding a whole car takes considerable time and effort.
Here is a link to my training with Kelly (KDS) and another link relating to my wet sanding
my own car.
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
Steve
Here is a link to my training with Kelly (KDS) and another link relating to my wet sanding
my own car.
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
Steve
MattOz said:
Love this thread.
Just a quick one for you pros, if I may. You're telling us that 3M FCP has fillers, which is agreed, but which cutting compounds do you use that don't and therefore leave a more "realistic" finish from the off?
Thanks
Matt
They all do to an extent, as you know. Scholl S3 and certainly Megs 101 and the other SMAT based compounds seem to offer a 'realistic' finish from the off.Just a quick one for you pros, if I may. You're telling us that 3M FCP has fillers, which is agreed, but which cutting compounds do you use that don't and therefore leave a more "realistic" finish from the off?
Thanks
Matt
kds keltec said:
Yep i know your not stupid ,was writing it for all to understand , I work through all the grades up to 400 grit gives much better finish thats much easier to machine correct back.
the fact that wet sanding removes paint material 5-10 times slower than a machine polisher , but had 100's of so called detailers in the past saying publicly that its dangerous to wet sand due to clear coat failure told me everything i needed to know about their knowledge , you will find it very hard and long winded to rub through an edge when wet sanding , but can burn through with in seconds with a machine polisher with one wrong pass.
So finishing with highest possible cut will be much better for less removal of total paint and much less aggressive compound cut will be needed which is much kinder to the paint material.
BUT THIS TAKES LONGER THAN A DAY
Kelly
Cheers. Not that I'm a detailer (so I don't trawl through posts) - but I've never really understood why it has only been 2000 and polish, it never really made sense.the fact that wet sanding removes paint material 5-10 times slower than a machine polisher , but had 100's of so called detailers in the past saying publicly that its dangerous to wet sand due to clear coat failure told me everything i needed to know about their knowledge , you will find it very hard and long winded to rub through an edge when wet sanding , but can burn through with in seconds with a machine polisher with one wrong pass.
So finishing with highest possible cut will be much better for less removal of total paint and much less aggressive compound cut will be needed which is much kinder to the paint material.
BUT THIS TAKES LONGER THAN A DAY
Kelly
Thanks for clearing that one up for me.
RussZS said:
MattOz said:
Love this thread.
Just a quick one for you pros, if I may. You're telling us that 3M FCP has fillers, which is agreed, but which cutting compounds do you use that don't and therefore leave a more "realistic" finish from the off?
Thanks
Matt
They all do to an extent, as you know. Scholl S3 and certainly Megs 101 and the other SMAT based compounds seem to offer a 'realistic' finish from the off.Just a quick one for you pros, if I may. You're telling us that 3M FCP has fillers, which is agreed, but which cutting compounds do you use that don't and therefore leave a more "realistic" finish from the off?
Thanks
Matt
MattOz said:
Thanks Russ. I've got Scholl S3 in my armoury and need to give it a proper work out sometime soon.
As Russ quoted some compounds have less fillers, BUT i have not found one to have none yet.Even scholl S3 has fillers , all thou i used S3 for a lot of correction work.
Kelly
kds keltec said:
As Russ quoted some compounds have less fillers, BUT i have not found one to have none yet.
Even scholl S3 has fillers , all thou i used S3 for a lot of correction work.
Kelly
Oh...I was mistakenly under the impression that the Menzerna polishes I use didn't have fillers. Even scholl S3 has fillers , all thou i used S3 for a lot of correction work.
Kelly
I guess you live and learn. I suppose in the case of an amatuer it's maybe not too bad as my standards probably aren't as high as Kelly's.Yet to still find anything that doesnt offer any filling ability. All will offer some forms of filling due to the nature of the carrier oils in the polishes. You will always find more filling from incorrect usage of certain polish types thus proving that carrying out works in a few hours will always result in drop back.
It is true that all compounds have fillers well carriers for the cutting media , so it will fill .
The problem is some are filler heavy on purpose , the same goes for the so call pre wax cleaners , yes they clean but also fill massively , which is fine if you know thats happening.
this car was re-painted and from the owners mouth look no where as bad as this ,
and this is what it looked like after a while in the Sun , al the oils / fillers / glazes had burnt out.
Has anyone actually tried a light wipe over with some of these cutting compounds , i mean light as thou you are putting on a wax , this would mean the cut has not worked but the finish will look better (but no cutting action has happend).
kelly
The problem is some are filler heavy on purpose , the same goes for the so call pre wax cleaners , yes they clean but also fill massively , which is fine if you know thats happening.
this car was re-painted and from the owners mouth look no where as bad as this ,
and this is what it looked like after a while in the Sun , al the oils / fillers / glazes had burnt out.
Has anyone actually tried a light wipe over with some of these cutting compounds , i mean light as thou you are putting on a wax , this would mean the cut has not worked but the finish will look better (but no cutting action has happend).
kelly
Beau Technique said:
Yet to still find anything that doesnt offer any filling ability. All will offer some forms of filling due to the nature of the carrier oils in the polishes. You will always find more filling from incorrect usage of certain polish types thus proving that carrying out works in a few hours will always result in drop back.
The Presta range of compounds was sold to us as having no filling properties, cant vouch for that though as I couldnt master the art of the lambswool application, thus reverting back to old faithful ferecla.Many are sold saying contains no silcones or Silcone free ,
and many say no need for solvent wipe down but do.
lets face it there are 10's thousands of bodyshops and smart repairers around , and a lot less full time detailers.
The products (cutting compounds / glazes / inspection spray (really quick detail sprays) are geared up for the masses , and for those masses they want a great finish as quick as possible and once out the door and customer is happy everyone is happy.
Why would a company make a compound that "seemed" not to cut as quickly or finish down very well and needing far more correction "because its real correction" , it would not sell very well and i guess fail straight from the start.
we love a wonder product wipe on wipe off and looks shiny.
OH lambs wool correction needs to be done in a completely different style to get it to work correctly.
Also you wont finish down with just wool , but its very fast at rounding off and even removing the deeper defects.
here is what DODO Juice lime prime can add , note to say i did not rub in with pressure to use the cutting action of the micro abrasives , it was only gentle wipe on wipe off, so just the glaze oils doing their work.
so think what a couple of layers of products and then the wax does to a good but not perfect machine corrected finish "makes it look much better than a good machine correct finish"
how about one coat of a less than £20 sealent that can do this then.
this was bare paint no machining wipe down with solvent so just one coat of a product not costing £1000's
could someone now tell me how the average punter in the street thats paid for his one day detail could see the difference between one days work or 5 days work?
One will last years with common sense cleaning and the other will last 2-3 months , and when you call in for a top up.
kelly
and many say no need for solvent wipe down but do.
lets face it there are 10's thousands of bodyshops and smart repairers around , and a lot less full time detailers.
The products (cutting compounds / glazes / inspection spray (really quick detail sprays) are geared up for the masses , and for those masses they want a great finish as quick as possible and once out the door and customer is happy everyone is happy.
Why would a company make a compound that "seemed" not to cut as quickly or finish down very well and needing far more correction "because its real correction" , it would not sell very well and i guess fail straight from the start.
we love a wonder product wipe on wipe off and looks shiny.
OH lambs wool correction needs to be done in a completely different style to get it to work correctly.
Also you wont finish down with just wool , but its very fast at rounding off and even removing the deeper defects.
here is what DODO Juice lime prime can add , note to say i did not rub in with pressure to use the cutting action of the micro abrasives , it was only gentle wipe on wipe off, so just the glaze oils doing their work.
so think what a couple of layers of products and then the wax does to a good but not perfect machine corrected finish "makes it look much better than a good machine correct finish"
how about one coat of a less than £20 sealent that can do this then.
this was bare paint no machining wipe down with solvent so just one coat of a product not costing £1000's
could someone now tell me how the average punter in the street thats paid for his one day detail could see the difference between one days work or 5 days work?
One will last years with common sense cleaning and the other will last 2-3 months , and when you call in for a top up.
kelly
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