Orange peel removal!!
Discussion
jds32 said:
Jaykabi I presume that is your M5 , the job whoever did on that car is shocking
was it a BMW bodyshop ? In all honesty you shouldn't have had to take it somewhere else for it to be sorted. I would be ashamed if I was either the painter of the vehicle or bodyshop manager/owner.
Not mine, no. Just goes to show, though, what can be achieved from a shocking original job. Kelly's own M3 was originally just as bad; I think I'm right in saying the previous owner had 'treated' it to a £500 respray. Suffice to say, Kelly's improved on it since and now it looks like this: was it a BMW bodyshop ? In all honesty you shouldn't have had to take it somewhere else for it to be sorted. I would be ashamed if I was either the painter of the vehicle or bodyshop manager/owner.
Aw, to hell with it. I'm posting the Navara (again).
I think, until we see some photos of Jules' work, I've contributed all I can add to this thread. Here's hoping the OP has (in amongst the sidetracks) got the information he wanted!
Jaykaybi said:
Gio G said:
Ok.... Reading all these posts I am really no wiser.. I seemed to have opened a real can of worms... If someone can give me an answer to my original post honestly and with some back up, that would be appreciated..
Likely to be between £1500 and £2000, depending on extras, wax/coating upgrades etc. As in my earlier post, I reckon it's worth it on a valuable new car that you've only just bought, because as a proportion of your new Audi's value it's not the biggest deal - I'm sure there are ticks on the options list that cost more.And yes, enquire with KDS if you have your heart set on achieving this finish:
So if that is the price, that rules me out. I used Jason Brough to do my old Cayenne Turbo years ago for around £400, corrective paintwork job, then using Zymol Royale wax - whatever it was called, others were quoting around £1,000 - £1,500. The work Jason did was excellent. He spent 12 hours on the car and I was happy with it. That was the price point I was looking for. Maybe as someone said before, a mis-alignment of expectations.. However bear in mind not everybody wants the ultimate Veyron service and finish, just wanted to improve it..
Gio G said:
There is no doubt, this work does look excellent, however, if I had to spend £1,500-£2,000, it would be on something else. I like my car, however not that much.. it is not like I am driving something Italian and exotic, it is an Audi A4 saloon for the love of god...
So if that is the price, that rules me out. I used Jason Brough to do my old Cayenne Turbo years ago for around £400, corrective paintwork job, then using Zymol Royale wax - whatever it was called, others were quoting around £1,000 - £1,500. The work Jason did was excellent. He spent 12 hours on the car and I was happy with it. That was the price point I was looking for. Maybe as someone said before, a mis-alignment of expectations.. However bear in mind not everybody wants the ultimate Veyron service and finish, just wanted to improve it..
I completely understand your approach - as you say, it's an A4 not some Italian exotica (though it makes the car no less special to you), however it's the orange peel removal that's a huge bulk of the cost. Without the requirement to get rid of the orange peel, then you could have a great (almost perfect) polish for much less than half of that price - it's just that you'll still have orange peel, albeit no scratches in the reflection (if you see what I mean).So if that is the price, that rules me out. I used Jason Brough to do my old Cayenne Turbo years ago for around £400, corrective paintwork job, then using Zymol Royale wax - whatever it was called, others were quoting around £1,000 - £1,500. The work Jason did was excellent. He spent 12 hours on the car and I was happy with it. That was the price point I was looking for. Maybe as someone said before, a mis-alignment of expectations.. However bear in mind not everybody wants the ultimate Veyron service and finish, just wanted to improve it..
Gio G said:
There is no doubt, this work does look excellent, however, if I had to spend £1,500-£2,000, it would be on something else. I like my car, however not that much.. it is not like I am driving something Italian and exotic, it is an Audi A4 saloon for the love of god...
So if that is the price, that rules me out. I used Jason Brough to do my old Cayenne Turbo years ago for around £400, corrective paintwork job, then using Zymol Royale wax - whatever it was called, others were quoting around £1,000 - £1,500. The work Jason did was excellent. He spent 12 hours on the car and I was happy with it. That was the price point I was looking for. Maybe as someone said before, a mis-alignment of expectations.. However bear in mind not everybody wants the ultimate Veyron service and finish, just wanted to improve it..
Oh. So if that is the price, that rules me out. I used Jason Brough to do my old Cayenne Turbo years ago for around £400, corrective paintwork job, then using Zymol Royale wax - whatever it was called, others were quoting around £1,000 - £1,500. The work Jason did was excellent. He spent 12 hours on the car and I was happy with it. That was the price point I was looking for. Maybe as someone said before, a mis-alignment of expectations.. However bear in mind not everybody wants the ultimate Veyron service and finish, just wanted to improve it..
In which case, you'll be wanting KDS's Bronze detail, but that orange peel ain't goin' nowhere for £400, not in the real world, not when you want someone who's fully insured and experienced enough to guarantee the result you're hoping for. Otherwise (and it sounds like you've made the decision) you'll just have to live with it - and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that, it's your bloody car and your hard-earned!
KDS said:
Our minor paint correction package has been put together mainly for nearly new or vehicles in very good condition with just slight paint imperfections. This detail uses the same process as our 'Enhancement Detail', your car will then undergo a single stage paint correction process to remove all visable surface defects and back to a level where 98% of paint defects are removed. Also the package to go for if your vehicle has had previous paint correction carried out within the last 12 months. This can also be carried out on vehicles with more severe paint defects, to strike an exceptional balance between a stunning finish and value for money, ordinarily we acheive a 75% correction of the paint‘s surface finish.
15 stage wash using 2 bucket method
Wheel arches cleaned
Wheels cleaned using alloy wheel cleaner
Clay bar used to remove bonded contaminates from paintwork (inc door shuts)
Vehicle re-washed and dried
Paint depth readings taken (also shows accident/paint repairs)
1 stage paint correction completed
Vehicle wiped down with a isopropal alcohol (panel wipe) to make sure surfaces are clean
Pre-selected wax/sealant is applied
Door shuts waxed for added protection
Interior cleaned and vacuumed
Interior plastics dressed to finish of your choice
Door seals and rubbers cleaned and protected
Interior glass cleaned
Exterior glass cleaned
Tyres cleaned and dressed with a long lasting tyre gel
Exterior plastics dressed
Paintwork checked with 3M sunlight
Final inspection to make sure your car meets our high standards
Prices from: small £280 / medium £ 340 / large £395 / XL/4x4 £455 (prices subject to VAT)
Time: Approx 15-20hrs (3 day booking)
http://www.kdskeltec.co.uk/price_menu.phtml
15 stage wash using 2 bucket method
Wheel arches cleaned
Wheels cleaned using alloy wheel cleaner
Clay bar used to remove bonded contaminates from paintwork (inc door shuts)
Vehicle re-washed and dried
Paint depth readings taken (also shows accident/paint repairs)
1 stage paint correction completed
Vehicle wiped down with a isopropal alcohol (panel wipe) to make sure surfaces are clean
Pre-selected wax/sealant is applied
Door shuts waxed for added protection
Interior cleaned and vacuumed
Interior plastics dressed to finish of your choice
Door seals and rubbers cleaned and protected
Interior glass cleaned
Exterior glass cleaned
Tyres cleaned and dressed with a long lasting tyre gel
Exterior plastics dressed
Paintwork checked with 3M sunlight
Final inspection to make sure your car meets our high standards
Prices from: small £280 / medium £ 340 / large £395 / XL/4x4 £455 (prices subject to VAT)
Time: Approx 15-20hrs (3 day booking)
http://www.kdskeltec.co.uk/price_menu.phtml
I'm not aware of any that leave the factory with a finish as good as Kelly can make it.
Public perception is that RR Phantoms and Bugatti Veyrons have very flat paintwork; similar can be said of Aston Martins. However, public perception is often very wrong and heavily influenced by marketing and hearsay.
Public perception is that RR Phantoms and Bugatti Veyrons have very flat paintwork; similar can be said of Aston Martins. However, public perception is often very wrong and heavily influenced by marketing and hearsay.
Gio G said:
Totally out of interest - which cars would leave a factory with this finish or close?
Aston Martin - they are the only company I'm aware of that hand finish their cars, so the paintwork is flat and gleaming from outset. (I'd be surprised if Rolls Royce and Bentley didn't do it too but haven't had the opportunity to check up close).Having said that, Kelly can improve upon even this finish. But next time you're up close to an Aston - check out the flatness of the paint - it's beautiful!
J-P said:
Gio G said:
Totally out of interest - which cars would leave a factory with this finish or close?
Aston Martin - they are the only company I'm aware of that hand finish their cars, so the paintwork is flat and gleaming from outset. (I'd be surprised if Rolls Royce and Bentley didn't do it too but haven't had the opportunity to check up close).Having said that, Kelly can improve upon even this finish. But next time you're up close to an Aston - check out the flatness of the paint - it's beautiful!
Aston Martin wet sand using DA machines which leave many pig tails in the surface and come for free when buying a new one .
very common problem and due to low hours of machine polishing which does not fully remove the defect in fact part removed part hidden with the oils from the cutting process and then masked more with pre wax cleaners (which in fact dont clean away oils from cutting process more add to them) and then finally the wax on top which improves the finish again.
here is sanding marks not machine fully as examples
i see this on every car from the factory that has wet sanding process as part of the "hand build" this is on all the very high end makers
this ALL wares down with washing and the UV light on darker colours burns out all the oils with in weeks in mid summer , so leaving the real true correction .
But stand a distance away from the car you are only seeing the dead flat smooth paint as perfect reflection.
If you then spend alot more time in between correction stages removing these oils and inspecting with different lights sources to ensure of true correction , this is why the real pro's achieve the best finish but comes at a greater time scale and cost .
the problem lies is can the customer tell if the detailer / valeter / painter firstly knows and understands whats going on and how to work with or without these oils and fillers , and a KDS bronze detail is no where near a Gold detail but to many will look very similar.
But are you paying for a gold service with some people and companys or paying for bronze time with ADD magic expensive wax that sounds great and smells great and hids a lot of what you are paying for to be "fully" removed .
Thats the problem , i have just finished training a detailer for over 30 hours this week , this is a common part of the KDS services this year , and so far not one i have trained has used in the past correct lighting or wipe downs to get "real" correction.
but is charging the same for around 8-12 hours compared to KDS 20-30 hours detail , ITs because we fully understand our trade.
this is after aston re-painted a car
here is what we do when heavy correction or wet sanding
here is what J-P means by perfect paint is flat reflection
of course when we repair these type of car we need to be able to give the car back with same factory finish without swirls and defects thou
wet sanding by hand right to edges
leaving this
whole side of car painted
lastly not sure if most would know this , there is a recommend amount (limit) to how much material (top cote/clear coat) can be removed before it would make the warranty void , and a good reason for this to.
Merc ceramic (scratch resistant) clear coat (but is only light scratch resistant) has the hard scratch resistant properties in the top 10-15 microns , if this is removed it becomes as soft as standard soft paint and will swirl very easily , i can remove 15-20 microns of paint in one past using a heavy cut and rotary machine polisher , i demo this on my training days and open days .
If you wet sand with aggressive cut to remove orange peel very fast and then cut back with heavy compound ALL for add speed and keep the cost down for the customer is this really the best thing for long term for you paint.
A much slower approach can remove 1/2 to 2/3 less paint but will take much longer and use very expensive measuring equipment .
hope that makes some sense
kelly
J-P said:
Gio G said:
Totally out of interest - which cars would leave a factory with this finish or close?
Aston Martin - they are the only company I'm aware of that hand finish their cars, so the paintwork is flat and gleaming from outset. (I'd be surprised if Rolls Royce and Bentley didn't do it too but haven't had the opportunity to check up close).Having said that, Kelly can improve upon even this finish. But next time you're up close to an Aston - check out the flatness of the paint - it's beautiful!
No orange peel but lots of other flaws.
To add about compounds , 3M fast cut plus is one of the most heavy filler cutting compounds on the market , used massively in the vehicle refinishirng industry .
I too used to use it and correct back wet sanded cars or fully correct in one long day .
Jump forward many years and I have a different view on these type products .
On the 3M bottles there is a scale of cut showing fast cut plus plus higher up the scale than is brother fast cut .
But the fast cut plus chart shows it as lower in cut but a red box around the scale indicating masking fillers .
This is the same for their other 2 bottles that came out a few years ago when 3M launched the new colour chart range .
In essence your half correcting the defects and half filling , when the fillers go you're left with lovely buffer lines on dark colours .
Who's in the wrong the company selling new range of clever compounds that work fast or the person using them ?
Why would you not believe your eyes if you used it wiped off the compound then waxed the car and looked great .
This still catches many a detailer out with the masking effect of such products .
Even the wipe down products produced do not fully remove all of the masking oils all thou this is there whole purpose .
There is a reason. It's takes as long as it takes and can't be hurried .
Some compounds are diminishing cut some are none diminishing cut , some are full of fillers on purposes some have fillers and not intentionally .
Kelly
I too used to use it and correct back wet sanded cars or fully correct in one long day .
Jump forward many years and I have a different view on these type products .
On the 3M bottles there is a scale of cut showing fast cut plus plus higher up the scale than is brother fast cut .
But the fast cut plus chart shows it as lower in cut but a red box around the scale indicating masking fillers .
This is the same for their other 2 bottles that came out a few years ago when 3M launched the new colour chart range .
In essence your half correcting the defects and half filling , when the fillers go you're left with lovely buffer lines on dark colours .
Who's in the wrong the company selling new range of clever compounds that work fast or the person using them ?
Why would you not believe your eyes if you used it wiped off the compound then waxed the car and looked great .
This still catches many a detailer out with the masking effect of such products .
Even the wipe down products produced do not fully remove all of the masking oils all thou this is there whole purpose .
There is a reason. It's takes as long as it takes and can't be hurried .
Some compounds are diminishing cut some are none diminishing cut , some are full of fillers on purposes some have fillers and not intentionally .
Kelly
And it used to catch out two painters I used to work with, they would finish the job the car would go on to be valeted and then be back because the sanding marks where still visible. The valeters would then get a world of abuse from one of the painters because they cleaned the fresh paint.
We had the same trouble with the 3M compounds, they've got loads of fillers in and they "mask" the flatting marks as much as cutting them back. To the unskilled they may appear to work really well but as soon as you wash the car everything comes back. We were degreasing the panels after every other pass of the mop to try and get a truer view of the panel!
TonyHetherington said:
Agree entirely 
(and, just for the record, I don't know who Beau Technique is nor his experience etc, just that I argree with his summary
)
i do, and he recently made a cracking job of my Jag(and, just for the record, I don't know who Beau Technique is nor his experience etc, just that I argree with his summary
)http://www.beautechnique.co.uk/page51.htm
stuartmmcfc said:
i do, and he recently made a cracking job of my Jag
http://www.beautechnique.co.uk/page51.htm
Thanks Stuart and glad you were and still are happy with your car.http://www.beautechnique.co.uk/page51.htm
Back on track. You need only see, speak or read anything with regards to Kelly @ KDS to realise what actually goes into orange peel removal. Something I have always been interested in but do not do and would not do without a good few years rather than days know how.
So hopefully this will help out some members who read this , and its for free .
None of this next is to upset anyone or body more to show the real things going on .
normally this sort of thing i ONLY pass on when training either in group or one 2 one.
since this thread a few years back
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
which touches the tip of fillers and wipe downs, i have tested on many different panels (really meaning paints) .
I have gone into the subject in depth which includes the temp at which i am polishing / what i am polishing with / and how i am polishing etc.
These all slightly change the filling effect.
But the main thing i have found is just how great the masking and filling effect is , and to highlight many of the comments replied on this thread , i know that washing , panel wipe , IPA Tradis (tar and glue remover) will NOT fully remove the oils from the machine stage .
This can not been seen without the correct use of lighting , Halogen lights do not shows this problem as much as other light sources.
The only product out on the market to FULLY remove ALL fillers is standard thinners , even milder thinners used to thin paint down sometimes does not remove all of the filling effect.
So i ask you this , can you correct in one day YES , can you see the real correction if not using the correct lighting , understanding the subject of fillers and then how to fully remove the oils , NO .
If you employ the correct techniques to get REAL FULL correction then it WILL take 3-4 times longer then you think to correct the paint .
BUT , to the untrained eye the difference between one day masked correction and 3 day full correction may not be much different , its what it looks like a few months down the line.
Lost count with the amount of times talked to people that have had one day detail handed over their money and said it lasted 2-3 months and the detailer is coming back for top up .
In fact the enzo in this thread which we fully repainted started out as a one day cheap detail (the same as the owner has had in the past from other companys , then i explained fully in depth about why the marks and swirls keep coming back (filling) and then the confidence came to go full on with re-paint
For me its more important that the detailer / painter knows whats what and also the customer knows.
I have heard so many times the saying "the paint settled , dont worry bring it back and we will re-polish it and only take a few hours" its not paint settling its the oils and filler burnt and washed out.
So a valet wash after a polish wont remove the entire filling effect nor will some designed products to do such a jib in fact they add to the filling effect.
Lastly on similar subject ,
I have a indi test from the USA on 45 waxes and sealents this was done in 2002 all conducted on the same new freshly painted and cured panels its 50 pages long and the most comprehensive test i have ever seen.
The test covered beed size / shine / gloss / depth / clarity / reflectivity / slickness / colour enhancement / overall impression .
Not one of the products (some of these where four figure sum waxes improved on perfect paint).
some lasting weeks (four figure sum waxes) and the best product lasting over 7 months and still going strong at the end of the test is only £20 for a bottle and can cover around 4 cars per bottle.
Now when i have tested for gloss readings on average condition paint these type of products can make the reading jump up around 10 units , if the same products are applied to perfect paint then these products make the reading go down around 1 unit .
Of course there is very few cars and paint on the road that are perfect and millions that are average and the reason why wax sell's so well in this country.
Are you having what i call a real detail or are you having a bit of machine polishing and fillers from oils , then fillers from the waxes giving you great looks.
This is why i think the general public sit there and think i can do that its easy wipe on wipe off and shiney car , then become HATERS as they read marketing bull of 5k car wash / 7.2 k detail using 8K wax and think detailers are emptying peoples wallets in the process and becoming rich (we are not all like that and some are very busy).
But once they actually do it for a full time job properly and like myself charge a very sensible rate for many many hours work and skill the dream is not such a dream but more hard work.
Lost count of the amount of valeting companys that have changed to detailing companys and nothing changed apart from the price they charge.
I do know how to get absolutely perfect none filled correction which comes from 40-50 hours correcting , then the oils and fillers have nothing to fill and mask .
Kelly
None of this next is to upset anyone or body more to show the real things going on .
normally this sort of thing i ONLY pass on when training either in group or one 2 one.
since this thread a few years back
http://www.detailingworld.co.uk/forum/showthread.p...
which touches the tip of fillers and wipe downs, i have tested on many different panels (really meaning paints) .
I have gone into the subject in depth which includes the temp at which i am polishing / what i am polishing with / and how i am polishing etc.
These all slightly change the filling effect.
But the main thing i have found is just how great the masking and filling effect is , and to highlight many of the comments replied on this thread , i know that washing , panel wipe , IPA Tradis (tar and glue remover) will NOT fully remove the oils from the machine stage .
This can not been seen without the correct use of lighting , Halogen lights do not shows this problem as much as other light sources.
The only product out on the market to FULLY remove ALL fillers is standard thinners , even milder thinners used to thin paint down sometimes does not remove all of the filling effect.
So i ask you this , can you correct in one day YES , can you see the real correction if not using the correct lighting , understanding the subject of fillers and then how to fully remove the oils , NO .
If you employ the correct techniques to get REAL FULL correction then it WILL take 3-4 times longer then you think to correct the paint .
BUT , to the untrained eye the difference between one day masked correction and 3 day full correction may not be much different , its what it looks like a few months down the line.
Lost count with the amount of times talked to people that have had one day detail handed over their money and said it lasted 2-3 months and the detailer is coming back for top up .
In fact the enzo in this thread which we fully repainted started out as a one day cheap detail (the same as the owner has had in the past from other companys , then i explained fully in depth about why the marks and swirls keep coming back (filling) and then the confidence came to go full on with re-paint
For me its more important that the detailer / painter knows whats what and also the customer knows.
I have heard so many times the saying "the paint settled , dont worry bring it back and we will re-polish it and only take a few hours" its not paint settling its the oils and filler burnt and washed out.
So a valet wash after a polish wont remove the entire filling effect nor will some designed products to do such a jib in fact they add to the filling effect.
Lastly on similar subject ,
I have a indi test from the USA on 45 waxes and sealents this was done in 2002 all conducted on the same new freshly painted and cured panels its 50 pages long and the most comprehensive test i have ever seen.
The test covered beed size / shine / gloss / depth / clarity / reflectivity / slickness / colour enhancement / overall impression .
Not one of the products (some of these where four figure sum waxes improved on perfect paint).
some lasting weeks (four figure sum waxes) and the best product lasting over 7 months and still going strong at the end of the test is only £20 for a bottle and can cover around 4 cars per bottle.
Now when i have tested for gloss readings on average condition paint these type of products can make the reading jump up around 10 units , if the same products are applied to perfect paint then these products make the reading go down around 1 unit .
Of course there is very few cars and paint on the road that are perfect and millions that are average and the reason why wax sell's so well in this country.
Are you having what i call a real detail or are you having a bit of machine polishing and fillers from oils , then fillers from the waxes giving you great looks.
This is why i think the general public sit there and think i can do that its easy wipe on wipe off and shiney car , then become HATERS as they read marketing bull of 5k car wash / 7.2 k detail using 8K wax and think detailers are emptying peoples wallets in the process and becoming rich (we are not all like that and some are very busy).
But once they actually do it for a full time job properly and like myself charge a very sensible rate for many many hours work and skill the dream is not such a dream but more hard work.
Lost count of the amount of valeting companys that have changed to detailing companys and nothing changed apart from the price they charge.
I do know how to get absolutely perfect none filled correction which comes from 40-50 hours correcting , then the oils and fillers have nothing to fill and mask .
Kelly
Just quickly read through this thread and I agree with JulesB.
Wet standing is one of those things that crosses over into the detailing world. Many detailers don't, won't or can't wet sand because it crosses over into bodyshop work and can be a risky process if you don't know exactly what you're doing.
Also, there's not just one level of wet sanding... there's wet sanding and there's wet sanding
Basically, you're paying for how long the job takes, since it's all labour. The bill will depend on how bad the orange peel is to begin with and how hard the paint is. If the car is a complex shape with lots of awkward vents and angles, this will also affect the time it takes to do the job. Pretty-much every factory paint job has orange peel with some worse than others and some colours (black, for example) being particularly unflattering to any defects/imperfections in the final finish.
If you want your car wet sanded to within an inch of its life so the paint ends-up like glass with absolutely zero orange peel (assuming there's enough paint thickness to work with to achieve that), it's going to take a very long time and be very expensive. If, on the other hand, you want your car wet sanded to dramatically improve the finish, but accepting there will still be some very slight orange peel present, the job will take significantly less time and will be proportionally cheaper.
Additional steps, such as swirl correction and waxing/sealing is the preserve of a detailer and will not likely be offered by a bodyshop who is contracted to wet sand. Again, if this is forming part of an overall package deal, it will add time to the job and will end-up being more expensive.
So, basically, time is money! A very good full wet sand that would satisfy 99% of owners can be had for the sort of price quoted by JulesB. If you want nothing other than perfection (perhaps for a concours event or show car), then be prepared to pay for the investment in time that it takes to achieve that
Wet standing is one of those things that crosses over into the detailing world. Many detailers don't, won't or can't wet sand because it crosses over into bodyshop work and can be a risky process if you don't know exactly what you're doing.
Also, there's not just one level of wet sanding... there's wet sanding and there's wet sanding
Basically, you're paying for how long the job takes, since it's all labour. The bill will depend on how bad the orange peel is to begin with and how hard the paint is. If the car is a complex shape with lots of awkward vents and angles, this will also affect the time it takes to do the job. Pretty-much every factory paint job has orange peel with some worse than others and some colours (black, for example) being particularly unflattering to any defects/imperfections in the final finish.If you want your car wet sanded to within an inch of its life so the paint ends-up like glass with absolutely zero orange peel (assuming there's enough paint thickness to work with to achieve that), it's going to take a very long time and be very expensive. If, on the other hand, you want your car wet sanded to dramatically improve the finish, but accepting there will still be some very slight orange peel present, the job will take significantly less time and will be proportionally cheaper.
Additional steps, such as swirl correction and waxing/sealing is the preserve of a detailer and will not likely be offered by a bodyshop who is contracted to wet sand. Again, if this is forming part of an overall package deal, it will add time to the job and will end-up being more expensive.
So, basically, time is money! A very good full wet sand that would satisfy 99% of owners can be had for the sort of price quoted by JulesB. If you want nothing other than perfection (perhaps for a concours event or show car), then be prepared to pay for the investment in time that it takes to achieve that
Edited by ian_uk1975 on Friday 29th June 23:53
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