Anyone know much about shower/whole house pumps?
Discussion
I have a gravity fed water system in my house. The cold water tank is in the loft, and the hot water tank is below it in an airing cupboard. Cold water pressure is excellent, butI've always suffered from low hot water pressure. No idea why.
About 15 years ago a salamander pump was put in to help the hot water around the whole house. It worked well.
Then about 5 years ago some cretins redid the bathroom, broke the salamander, and replaced it with a wickes pump. In the process, they changed the routing of the pump pipework to only supply the shower. So shower pressure is excellent, but the rest of the house is crap.
Recently this has pump has died. I'd like to replace it with a new one but I'd like to change the pipework so it does the whole house again. Where do I start?
I'm considering one of these two pumps:
https://www.screwfix.com/p/salamander-pumps-ct-for...
https://www.screwfix.com/p/grundfos-96788173-regen...
About 15 years ago a salamander pump was put in to help the hot water around the whole house. It worked well.
Then about 5 years ago some cretins redid the bathroom, broke the salamander, and replaced it with a wickes pump. In the process, they changed the routing of the pump pipework to only supply the shower. So shower pressure is excellent, but the rest of the house is crap.
Recently this has pump has died. I'd like to replace it with a new one but I'd like to change the pipework so it does the whole house again. Where do I start?
I'm considering one of these two pumps:
https://www.screwfix.com/p/salamander-pumps-ct-for...
https://www.screwfix.com/p/grundfos-96788173-regen...
Edited by fiju on Saturday 17th August 14:16
I have a whole house Stuart Turner , 4 bar i think it is.
Does the job it’s meant to do. Plumber put 90 degree bends in pipework feeding upstairs initially, this led to a delay in it kicking in when turning an upstairs tap on, taking the 90’s out and putting 45’s in cured it.
The rest of my system is as yours.
Does the job it’s meant to do. Plumber put 90 degree bends in pipework feeding upstairs initially, this led to a delay in it kicking in when turning an upstairs tap on, taking the 90’s out and putting 45’s in cured it.
The rest of my system is as yours.
Gingerbread Man said:
Could your showers cold be mains fed rather than gravity?
Another option to ponder over is making your hot water mains pressure too, so no need for a pump, no noise from a pump.
Yes I think the shower may be mains fed, including all the other taps. How do I make sure?Another option to ponder over is making your hot water mains pressure too, so no need for a pump, no noise from a pump.
That sounds like a brilliant idea. How do I do that?
Ok I'm pretty sure the cylinder is fed by mains water. An old looking pipe (victorian perhaps?) comes up to the cylinder, where it steps down slightly and works its way around to the inlet. The valve is fully open. But that doesn't explain the cold water storage tank in the loft... So now I'm not so sure.
Edited by fiju on Saturday 17th August 15:26
Edited by fiju on Saturday 17th August 15:27
The cylinder will not be mains fed, cold water from the tank in the loft is fed into the tank at its base.
You have a couple of options as you have identified and suggested. You can put in a pump that will boost both the hot and cold pressure, this will run every time a tap is run or toilet flushed so noise from the pump could be a consideration.
Alternatively you could put in an unvented mains cylinder which would eliminate the need for the tank in the loft and replace your existing cylinder. This would be fed directly from the mains so you would have mains pressure hot and cold throughout the house. This would be silent but more costly.
I recently fitted a "bathroom pump" 2.6 bar Salamander BT80, does more than one shower etc. Very good but so loud the only workable answer would be to install in the garage meaning lots of pipework through walls etc.
I replaced with a much smaller 1.5 bar pump which does a single shower and simultaneous hot tap fine and is almost inaudible. This is installed on a pull switch in the shower so it only runs when needed for that as we have adequate hot and cold pressure elsewhere.
An unvented cylinder is the best option, I have fitted several in the past but the disruption in the current situation was not going to work.
Cost wise, pump around £220 installed (DIY in half a day), unvented cylinder would have been about £750 (DIY which is not strictly legal in UK
) plus about £500 building work and 2-3 days without water.
HTH
You have a couple of options as you have identified and suggested. You can put in a pump that will boost both the hot and cold pressure, this will run every time a tap is run or toilet flushed so noise from the pump could be a consideration.
Alternatively you could put in an unvented mains cylinder which would eliminate the need for the tank in the loft and replace your existing cylinder. This would be fed directly from the mains so you would have mains pressure hot and cold throughout the house. This would be silent but more costly.
I recently fitted a "bathroom pump" 2.6 bar Salamander BT80, does more than one shower etc. Very good but so loud the only workable answer would be to install in the garage meaning lots of pipework through walls etc.
I replaced with a much smaller 1.5 bar pump which does a single shower and simultaneous hot tap fine and is almost inaudible. This is installed on a pull switch in the shower so it only runs when needed for that as we have adequate hot and cold pressure elsewhere.
An unvented cylinder is the best option, I have fitted several in the past but the disruption in the current situation was not going to work.
Cost wise, pump around £220 installed (DIY in half a day), unvented cylinder would have been about £750 (DIY which is not strictly legal in UK
) plus about £500 building work and 2-3 days without water.HTH
Edited by 21TonyK on Saturday 17th August 17:42
My folks have had a similar system to yours for many years but with a large pump and pressure vessel pressurising everything downstream of the cold tank.
It worked well but the pump made a racket and continually cycled on and off whenever any water was drawn.
They've just had one of these put in and have been raving about it - self contained unit that continually monitors the system pressure and varies the pump speed accordingly. Almost silent apparently and allowed them to do away with the pressure vessel etc. About £300 I think.
https://www.dabpumps.com/en/products/multistage-ce...
It worked well but the pump made a racket and continually cycled on and off whenever any water was drawn.
They've just had one of these put in and have been raving about it - self contained unit that continually monitors the system pressure and varies the pump speed accordingly. Almost silent apparently and allowed them to do away with the pressure vessel etc. About £300 I think.
https://www.dabpumps.com/en/products/multistage-ce...
snowandrocks said:
They've just had one of these put in and have been raving about it - self contained unit that continually monitors the system pressure and varies the pump speed accordingly. Almost silent apparently and allowed them to do away with the pressure vessel etc. About £300 I think.
https://www.dabpumps.com/en/products/multistage-ce...
Omg that vid https://www.dabpumps.com/en/products/multistage-ce...
Thanks for the suggestions guys. I've been thinking about it and have come to the conclusion that I may be better off fitting a non vented cylinder. If that's the case then I'd like to move it from the airing cupboard to the loft. My only concern is if my loft will be able to take the weight? Probably looking at a 250l-300l cylinder.
300 lites of water is 300 kilos and from memory I managed to manhandle a 300l OSO up 4 stories with my Dad so maybe another 20-30 kilos for the tank. If you site it where you old water tank was you might get away with it if theres a supporting wall underneath?
You can also get horizontal cylinders if headroom is an issue.
You can also get horizontal cylinders if headroom is an issue.
As Tony says. Bit of work involved, but better setup that gravity. Cold water cistern in loft disappears. You can put them in the loft, but supporting that weight, spreading it over a supporting wall is best. The discharge pipework needs to be catered for, possibly to the outside and down to ground level.
I'd put it in a tray so if it leaks, it leaks to outside.
Many different brands. Megaflo is the name in this area, but not always considered the best.
Sparky to move the power for the element.
Horizontal tanks aren't as good as the traditional vertical models
Is your heating circuit pressurised?
Also need to get a 20mm pipe up to the new location e.g. from the incoming mains at the kitchen sink to the new spot.
Flow and pressure need to be good to run an invented hot water setup.
I'd put it in a tray so if it leaks, it leaks to outside.
Many different brands. Megaflo is the name in this area, but not always considered the best.
Sparky to move the power for the element.
Horizontal tanks aren't as good as the traditional vertical models
Is your heating circuit pressurised?
Also need to get a 20mm pipe up to the new location e.g. from the incoming mains at the kitchen sink to the new spot.
Flow and pressure need to be good to run an invented hot water setup.
I had similar issues so went for one of these (rather more expensive I am afraid).
I have 00s of litres of water stored in the cellar, the pump is submerged so you don't hear it and I have 3 bar everywhere.
If you leave the garden hose on then you can empty the storage in a short time but I tend to turn so bypass levers if I am to do extended watering...
https://pumpexpress.co.uk/shop/powertank-utility-v...
I bought the double-tank version.
Very happy with it.
I have 00s of litres of water stored in the cellar, the pump is submerged so you don't hear it and I have 3 bar everywhere.
If you leave the garden hose on then you can empty the storage in a short time but I tend to turn so bypass levers if I am to do extended watering...
https://pumpexpress.co.uk/shop/powertank-utility-v...
I bought the double-tank version.
Very happy with it.
We had an old vented cyl and big cold tank, shower pump in the main bathroom, but a old low-pressure mira mixer in the other shower, and it was reasonable. 22mm pipe everywhere, cold tank on a stand in the loft to the waterline was 6ft off the ceiling, 9ft ceilings,so the hot taps actaully worked fine.
However the old tank was 'only' 150l, uninsulated, and had a leaking essex flange, so we bite the bullet and a week ago had a bit 250l OSO cylinder put in, and other than the plumber being a typical tradesman we are very happy with it. Cracking showers, better hot pressure in the ensuite tap, and no pump whine while showering. Asked for a DeltaCoil (lowest thermal loss) and got a SuperCoil but other are fine I am sure. Same price as a megaflo but I didnt fancy the internal baffle having heard of failures after only 5-10years.
Daniel
However the old tank was 'only' 150l, uninsulated, and had a leaking essex flange, so we bite the bullet and a week ago had a bit 250l OSO cylinder put in, and other than the plumber being a typical tradesman we are very happy with it. Cracking showers, better hot pressure in the ensuite tap, and no pump whine while showering. Asked for a DeltaCoil (lowest thermal loss) and got a SuperCoil but other are fine I am sure. Same price as a megaflo but I didnt fancy the internal baffle having heard of failures after only 5-10years.
Daniel
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