Lotus:- The End?
Discussion
Bitofbully said:
I didn't realise just how bad things were for Lotus - £29k for a base Elise. No wonder they're struggling. I'd assumed (stupidly, it seems) they'd be around £22k-ish.
I did some comparisons - a 2.0 MX5 in the top cabrio spec. can be had for £18k and a GT86 is £25k.
You'd have to be particularly enthusiastic about owning a Lotus to spend that extra money over 2 cars which offer 80-90% of the experience, 100% more practicality and probably more reliability for a lot less money.
30-40% of the experience, IMO. I like both cars a lot, but they simply aren't comparable. I did some comparisons - a 2.0 MX5 in the top cabrio spec. can be had for £18k and a GT86 is £25k.
You'd have to be particularly enthusiastic about owning a Lotus to spend that extra money over 2 cars which offer 80-90% of the experience, 100% more practicality and probably more reliability for a lot less money.
bobo said:
in 2008 - end of the cycle fisker sourced funding so easily they were actually accused of initiating junky start-ups on investors. they still got the cash. and look where they are now. illustrates in reality what a complete rookie MK was during his tenure - same cycle - easy money ...
there's pro management and amateur management ... lotus have been blessed with one type, not the other.
In fairness to MK, he was employed by Proton. He couldn't just go out to the market looking for funding to dilute Proton's stake. MK was hired by Proton to manage on Proton's behalf. This he did well, in the sense that he put things on an even keel. But somebody lacked vision here. And, perhaps, they - eventually - recognised that, hence DB walked in and persuaded them to underwrite £270m in loans. It just a shame that they didn't - how shall I put this - put the 'vision thing' out to competitive tender...there's pro management and amateur management ... lotus have been blessed with one type, not the other.
skwdenyer said:
Indeed. To turn that on its head, if Fisker, with good ideas but no development experience could obtain that much money to do what they've done, why could Lotus not have done the same?
Edited by bobo on Sunday 14th October 21:07
Scuffers said:
~£25K (for the base model)
think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
That would be nice but may not be obvious when you consider costs including taxes dealer margins etc a standard factory Caterham Supersport £24K however add paint weather kit etc and its closer to £32K an R300 R400 R500 £31k £ £36K £42K then you have to add paint and the other bits for the road.think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
That makes the Europa look more reasonable at least it can be used all year without wearing a wet suit
Edited by Toaster on Sunday 14th October 21:28
Toaster said:
Scuffers said:
~£25K (for the base model)
think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
That would be nice but may not be obvious when you consider costs including taxes dealer margins etc a standard factory Caterham Supersport £24K however add paint weather kit etc and its closer to £32K an R300 R400 R500 £31k £ £36K £42K then you have to add paint and the other bits for the road.think about it, there are a lot of cars sub £35K that are more obvious choices
That makes the Europa look more reasonable at least it can be used all year without wearing a wet suit
Caterham sell less than 50 R500's a year (to the UK)
if Lotus are to continue, they need to sell cars in the thousands, not handfuls.
if you want a comparison. look no further than the MX5 or as was, S2000.
point is, Lotus sold what? 50 Europas?
how sensible was that?
my point was there has never be an easier time in history to source funds from a parent than during MKs tenure. which goes back to the original point re fisker.
instead the co gets its first genuinely new product since the s1 that ultimately the market doesn't want and which will be paid for until it gets traded or dissolved (and written off) or it has another load of investment thrown at it and is re bodied.
with respect, DB was no angel but MK wasn't the sharpest tool in the box or if he was he was downright lazy. the problems back then were glaringly obvious and have been raised previously on here and not just by me... if addressed then we probably wouldn't be here now.
instead the co gets its first genuinely new product since the s1 that ultimately the market doesn't want and which will be paid for until it gets traded or dissolved (and written off) or it has another load of investment thrown at it and is re bodied.
with respect, DB was no angel but MK wasn't the sharpest tool in the box or if he was he was downright lazy. the problems back then were glaringly obvious and have been raised previously on here and not just by me... if addressed then we probably wouldn't be here now.
skwdenyer said:
In fairness to MK, he was employed by Proton. He couldn't just go out to the market looking for funding to dilute Proton's stake. MK was hired by Proton to manage on Proton's behalf. This he did well, in the sense that he put things on an even keel. But somebody lacked vision here. And, perhaps, they - eventually - recognised that, hence DB walked in and persuaded them to underwrite £270m in loans. It just a shame that they didn't - how shall I put this - put the 'vision thing' out to competitive tender...
otolith said:
30-40% of the experience, IMO. I like both cars a lot, but they simply aren't comparable.
Maybe that's why Lotus are in trouble, though.They're building cars which have a tiny niche market - weekend toys, largely.
We're in a recession, and mainstream manufacturers offer fun cars which can be used as daily drivers, for a lot less money.
I've been browsing 2 seater ragtops this evening, as I fancy a bit of a change - if you look at the M100, it was really something you could use every day, something you cannot say about the Elise.
Scuffers said:
not a valid comparision
Caterham sell less than 50 R500's a year (to the UK)
if Lotus are to continue, they need to sell cars in the thousands, not handfuls.
if you want a comparison. look no further than the MX5 or as was, S2000.
point is, Lotus sold what? 50 Europas?
how sensible was that?
Well you cant compare costs of a robotised mass production line to a hand built car which has a different cost base. Caterham have done this in part with the caged chassis rather than Arch.Caterham sell less than 50 R500's a year (to the UK)
if Lotus are to continue, they need to sell cars in the thousands, not handfuls.
if you want a comparison. look no further than the MX5 or as was, S2000.
point is, Lotus sold what? 50 Europas?
how sensible was that?
It was around 450 Europa S that were built.
Two issues that will probably be impacting sales one is negativity from forums such as this with naysayers carping opinions that can undermine confidence for potential purchasers the other which is affecting most manufacturing is the global economic situation you only have to look at other manufactures to see the issues they are having.
People who actually own a Evora or Europa will give accounts of how good these cars are. One hopes Lotus survive, but one thing is for sure in this world nothing forever........... everything is transient.
otolith said:
Mine is a daily driver - why would the M100 be more usable?
It was designed as a daily driver, so has a fully trimmed cabin, making it comfortable and practical. They also appear to have a reasonably sensible boot.Some people may be happy running around in an Elise every day - but most wouldn't want something so stripped out with those high sills as something to jump into to get to work.
If you're selling stripped out, focused 'drivers' cars, then you're limiting the potential market - most people don't have £30k to spend on a toy. If it's something they can visualise as a daily commuter and something they believe they can fit the weekly shop in, then it becomes something you can run as an only car, and opens you up to a much wider market.
There is a knack to getting in and out, but once you have it there's nothing to it. I would imagine it puts some people off in the showroom, but unless you are fat or infirm it isn't a real problem.
The only real issues are that it's noisy at motorway speeds and the aperture to the boot is small. Mine was quieter when the exhaust and induction were standard, but even now it isn't awful. The seats and driving position are comfortable, the ride quality is good (better than our 350Z by a long way). The top of the dash is covered in alcantara, the seats and wheel are leather, the floor mats are carpet, the door cards are padded. It's not plush, but most of that is irrelevant to actual practicality. There's a radio/cd player and a heater.
I don't really see it as a twenty-odd grand do-everything car for someone in his twenties, though some people fit that niche, but nor is it something as hard to live with as a Caterham.
The only real issues are that it's noisy at motorway speeds and the aperture to the boot is small. Mine was quieter when the exhaust and induction were standard, but even now it isn't awful. The seats and driving position are comfortable, the ride quality is good (better than our 350Z by a long way). The top of the dash is covered in alcantara, the seats and wheel are leather, the floor mats are carpet, the door cards are padded. It's not plush, but most of that is irrelevant to actual practicality. There's a radio/cd player and a heater.
I don't really see it as a twenty-odd grand do-everything car for someone in his twenties, though some people fit that niche, but nor is it something as hard to live with as a Caterham.
Edited by otolith on Sunday 14th October 23:22
C1RVY said:
The new Exige, if they can get them out the door, would be enough to turn the thing around. It's just what the motoring world wants. 
God loves an optimist.If you look at the cars that made Lotus you will rapidly understand that no way will the new Exige save anybody. Fabulous handling on its own just isn't enough. It is too small, too spartan and not a good all round ownership proposition. Very few people actually want cars like that. Added to which it has the 'home made' stigma of being GRP, just like TVR which is unsurprisingly also up the creek without a paddle.
Most of the big boys have realised that small does not equate to light and is not the way forward. Most people with the disposable income to buy something like that are simply not prepared to risk their necks in something the size of a kiddycar. I know i'm not. The original Elite and Elan were not small cars. Lotus have gone into a niche market which has grown up and gone away. They should have produced something like the Toyota GT86.
cardigankid said:
The original Elite and Elan were not small cars.
An original Elan is tiny. And made of GRP. 
I suppose if Lotus were using carbon fibre reinforced plastic that would be just fine, despite the advantages for unstressed panels like those of current Lotus cars being negligible.
I've come across something of a conundrum. Whilst I can agree that Lotus is a niche player and in times of recession weekend toys are the first to be struck off the Christmas list, how come my local dealer is significantly ahead of his target this year already and its only mid October. His target is significantly higher than last year, which itself was a record year for the dealership. He has one, yes one, new car on the lot and is desperate for his next delivery. Until then he has about a dozen used examples which he expects to turn over during the next few months.
And he has a healthy order book for the Exige S but like the rest of us is desperate for new, new product.
So what's the secret? I wish I knew...
And he has a healthy order book for the Exige S but like the rest of us is desperate for new, new product.
So what's the secret? I wish I knew...
otolith said:
There is a knack to getting in and out, but once you have it there's nothing to it. I would imagine it puts some people off in the showroom, but unless you are fat or infirm it isn't a real problem.
The only real issues are that it's noisy at motorway speeds and the aperture to the boot is small. Mine was quieter when the exhaust and induction were standard, but even now it isn't awful. The seats and driving position are comfortable, the ride quality is good (better than our 350Z by a long way). The top of the dash is covered in alcantara, the seats and wheel are leather, the floor mats are carpet, the door cards are padded. It's not plush, but most of that is irrelevant to actual practicality. There's a radio/cd player and a heater.
I don't really see it as a twenty-odd grand do-everything car for someone in his twenties, though some people fit that niche, but nor is it something as hard to live with as a Caterham.
It may be possible to use an Elise as a daily driver but why on earth would enyone want to? It's great for an occasional cross country blast, but there are many better cars for the daily commute.The only real issues are that it's noisy at motorway speeds and the aperture to the boot is small. Mine was quieter when the exhaust and induction were standard, but even now it isn't awful. The seats and driving position are comfortable, the ride quality is good (better than our 350Z by a long way). The top of the dash is covered in alcantara, the seats and wheel are leather, the floor mats are carpet, the door cards are padded. It's not plush, but most of that is irrelevant to actual practicality. There's a radio/cd player and a heater.
I don't really see it as a twenty-odd grand do-everything car for someone in his twenties, though some people fit that niche, but nor is it something as hard to live with as a Caterham.
Edited by otolith on Sunday 14th October 23:22
RYH64E said:
It may be possible to use an Elise as a daily driver but why on earth would enyone want to? It's great for an occasional cross country blast, but there are many better cars for the daily commute.
I wouldn't disagree with that - if you want to commute in a sports car, buy a Boxster, it's what it's designed for. I was disagreeing with the idea that an Elise is some sort of spartan weekend or track car that can't be used day to day. It's not luxurious, but it is perfectly adequate - there is no need to MTFU in order to use one, you get in and drive it. It's no more spartan than the cars I learnt to drive in.RYH64E said:
It may be possible to use an Elise as a daily driver but why on earth would enyone want to? It's great for an occasional cross country blast, but there are many better cars for the daily commute.
exactly, it was never designed to be a daily car, and one of the reasons it's not selling now is that Lotus have tried to turn it into one (and jacked up the costs/price because of this)Look, it's actually quite easy to understand what the issues are, somewhat harder to put right, however, neither Dannyboys plan or the previous plan were ever going to work long term.
Lotus needed a new car, the Evora was not it, and whilst the Exige S may well sell, it's not going to sell in high enough numbers to be significant.
The issue here is Lotus need to sell 10,000+ cars a year in it's current form, and the only time they have ever got close to that was with the S1 Elise, (and that did not get that close).
Lotus lost the plot after the Elise, they got too arrogant, said they could make anything (340r for example) canned the logical next car (M250), then pontificated and wasted money on more vanity/willie waving projects for the next 10 years whilst at the same time piling s
t onto the Elise and more paint jobs than you can shake a stick at.Way I see it, if Caterham launched the S1 Elise & Exige again with a decent Ford duratec, with the weights back in the 700kg's bracket and a sensible price tag, they would sell, probably not in the numbers Lotus would need, but more than enough to make a decent profit out of.
Lotus desperately need a new car, and the Evora is not it.
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