Thursday 31st May 2001

Honda Powered Elise

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[LotusV8]

I''m glad the car is getting some great reviews and is being highly respected, but to hell with Honda! The car is A LOTUS, and no Honda crud should be in the car. I would rather the car not even come to the U.S. than have some rice boys with a rich daddy go and ruin the essence of a Lotus.

[hoganscrogan]

Rather have a Honda VTEC in an Elise than some old Rover lump - Honda have made some v. nice egines over the years (Ayton and Mansell have used 'em) and the 1.8 VTEC has ALOT more character than the Rover unit Lotus use. Honda/Lotus Elise are a perfect match if you ask me.

[jimbo]

How heavy is the honda engine and transmission, because surely if it is any heavier than the original rover items then it is going to upset the balance of the car. Jim

[sparks]

quote:How heavy is the honda engine and transmission, because surely if it is any heavier than the original rover items then it is going to upset the balance of the car. Jim

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Surely the Honda/Rover 1.8 engines are very similar, from the days of the joint venture? I can't see the VTEC being anymore than the VVC system. Should have no effect (but don't quote me! )

[hoganscrogan]

I belive the Honda unit is around the same weight, honda revs to 8,500 and produes 195 bhp in STANDARD form (can be tuned) belive me the Honda Type R engine is far nicer than any Rover 1.8 ( I have an S2000)

[herbie]

Well the Honda engine uses the same block I *think* and the Integra Type-R was also built with weight saving in mind!!! I think it would be an awesome combination and would go like the wind :-D Edited by herbie on Wednesday 6th June 20:17

[Nightmare]

out of interest.....why hasnt anyone here (UK) stuck the Honda engine in an elise?

[sparks]

quote:out of interest.....why hasnt anyone here (UK) stuck the Honda engine in an elise?

Probably because you can tune the rover to 200+bhp for less than swapping it out. See the link below for info.... I think somewhere in the article is a K series (1700/1800) tuned to 240BHP!!!!! http://hometown.aol.com/dvandrews/kengine.htm Sparks Edited by sparks on Friday 8th June 08:50

[Nightmare]

that is a great website - and sadly enough a very interesting read.... the question it Doesnt answer for me is.....so cant the Honda engine be tuned then? (je suis a mechanical illiterate in many respects and hondas valved engines are high on that list ) Sparks..any ideas? cheers Night

[sparks]

I believe the honda can be tuned quite well, although obviously the VTEC has already been 'factory' tuned. I am not hugely mechanically minded (read that web site and some others) and there seemsto be a basic maximum hp/torque for a given size of engine. This seems to imply that with maximum tuning the honda/rover units would be very similar. As an example of extreme tuning, check David Andrew's (from the rover page) info on the 2 litre ford (sierra) engine in his kit car. No fancy valves, no turbo and 240bhp!!! If you are interested read this page too (althought the link is currently broken ) http://www.motorsport-developments.co.uk/what_is_power_&_torque.htm Sparks

[sparks]

Forgot to mention. These highly tuned cars, VVC/VTEC or not, have to be **revved** to get the power. They are also much less tractable (low rev pickup). The S2000 suffers from this in a *big* way compared to a 4.0 litre chimp (sorry elise is only second on my list....) which have very similar bhp. The V8 has the low down grunt to make high performance less of a nightmare (sic!) This is obviously not such a problem with an elise. Sparks

[hoganscrogan]

Never found the lack of low down torque much of a prob in the Honda (thats what VTEC is for anyway - to allow low down tracktability with high end power). Drove a 4l Chimp for 4 days before I decided on the S' and it didn't feel any faster than the honda, which I find very easy to drive below 7000 rpm (when the cam changes). As for the Elise -Honda engine install, the reason no one has done it in the UK is probably that you can tune the original rover engine to similar power outputs as the Honda, and this is alot easier/cheaper than swapping engines. The Honda engine has a much nicer sound/character than the rover but thats not much of a reason to spend £10k??? doing an engine swap. The yanks have no choice if they want an Elise on the road as the rover engine has not been federalised. Cheaper for them to just bang in a US legal Honda unit than to all the testing to legalise the rover unit. Honda engines can be tuned (see www.honda-acura.net lots of 'fools' on this site tho') but the only way they have found to improve the S2000 unit power wise (other than the odd 7 bhp or so ) is to supercharge it!!

[Paul V]

I was under the impression that the Honda engines can be tuned to give silly amounts of power, I looked into a Honda conversion for my mini and was told in excess of 300bhp is easily achieved with remapped ecu and throttle bodies etc. as the computer controls cam timing is should be possible to have a easy driver for week days and plug a laptop in, down load a different profile and have a racer for the track.

[sparks]

More 'tuning' stuff. The broken link is actually off the page below, along with lots of other stuff. Key to performance for a given cc is valve area -> air flow. Without forced induction there is a limit, which the S2000 is close to, without going 'racing' which requires high maintenance and rpm. (cf 3000cc F1 engines, 800hp @18000rpm) hoganscrogan The honda is tractable (from the VTEC) I was refering to the ford (no variable valves), but the honda is still woefully down on torque. Not just my opinion, many auto journalists too. Don't get me wrong, it is a good (maybe even great) car, but my choice would always be cc (original 427 cobra drooool). http://www.pumaracing.co.uk/mainmenu.htm sparks

[hoganscrogan]

No offence taken Sparks - S2000 just suited me more - to be honest I've always wanted a TVR but the chimp just wasn't for me - I've read all the motoring 'experts' reviews but it just doesn't relate to my experience, you can change up in the honda at 4000 rpm and still make good progress. I've driven plenty of fast cars big and smal engined and the S2000 unit is one of the most addictive I've used. 300bhp from a Honda unit would need nitrous or turbo/supercharging IMO. As sparks says you would be talking mental revs to reach 300bhp otherwise. BTW I've just got back from the states where I was driving my girlfriends 1970's Chevy Nova - 350ci tuned to hell with about 400bhp .... and drum brakes all round!!!! Fun but in a terrifying kind of way!!! She's coming back to the UK next month and has an eye on a 4.5 cerbera...god help me. PS I LOVE TVR's

[hoganscrogan]

PAUL V - Forgot to mention Honda VTEC has 2 different cam profiles that are switched between at certain revs. Not infinitly variable profiles. I believe the newer engines may be using a slightly different scheme but they are tuned for economy at the mo. People are working on the infinitly variable timing but it's not feasable for production use as yet (not sure about the BMW vanos system tho')

[stig]

The Toyota VVT-i is continuously variable and the VVTL-i varies lift too. Just nick a Celica 190 and you'll be laughing! http://www.locost-racing.com Car No. 13

[damnradd]

I wish: Diesel turbine, 320 horsepower, with 425 ft/lbs of torque, in a superbike! http://www.marineturbine.com/rollsroyce.htm I don't think it's legal anywhere outside the US, at least, I haven't found anything to say it is or isn't allowed...

[hoganscrogan]

KTurbo - Funny how on all my track days I eat the elises on the straight -throught the corners and under braking The only elise that was faster was a 160/190 (not sure) standard elise has no chance (got videos if you need proof)

[monolith]

Somebody was asking about the weights with the Honda B18C5 engine (yes, a type-r). Taken directly from Sun's site: http://www.sunspeed.com/pr_els04.html ---------------------------------------- Honda powertrain, complete ready to install, including: trans axel, intake, fuel injection, exhaust header, oil, intermediate axel, starter, alternator, etc. 419 lbs Elise 111S w/ Honda powertrain. Complete vehicle. Total weight includes soft top and fittings, full tank of fuel, fluids, catalyst and Lotus muffler, standard battery: 1719 lbs Distribution: Left Front - 330 lbs Right Front - 326 lbs Left Rear - 542 lbs Right Rear - 521 lbs Rear weight is 1063 pounds. Weight distribution front / rear = 38.2% / 61.8% 2. Curb weight base model 2000 Elise w/ Honda powertrain - 1710 lbs. This engine really makes the Elise fly..look at the specifications: Engine Based on Honda VTEC B18C (Type R) type in-line 4 cylinder, 4 valves per cylinder capacity 1,797 cc horsepower 200 hp @ 8,200 rpm torque 137.1 lb-ft (19.0 kg-m) @ 6200 rpm compression 11.3:1 (Std 10.6:1) V-TEC point Std.5700 - 6000 (optional 4900 - 5200 rpm) rev limit 9100 rpm (Std 8400 rpm) flywheel std. 7.9 kg (optional lightened 4.2 kg) Transaxle Honda gear box Manual, 5 speed + reverse ratios 1st 3.230; 2nd 2.105; 3rd 1.458; 4th 1.107; 5th 0.848 Differential Honda Helical LSD final drive 4.4:1 Finally, from Car & Driver's review: http://www.caranddriver.com/xp/Caranddriver/features/2001/July/200107_specialtyfile_lotuselise.xml SUN INTERNATIONAL LOTUS ELISE TYPE R Vehicle type: mid-engine, rear-wheel-drive, 2-passenger, 2-door roadster Price as tested: $55,000 Engine type: DOHC 16-valve 4-in-line, aluminum block and head, Honda PGM-FI engine-control system with port fuel injection Displacement:110 cu in, 1797cc Power (mfr's est): 200 bhp @ 8200 rpm Torque (mfr's est):137 lb-ft @ 6200 rpm Transmission: 5-speed manual Wheelbase: 90.6 in Length: 146.7 in Curb weight:1719 lb Zero to 60 mph: 4.6 sec Zero to 100 mph: 12.1 sec Zero to 110 mph: 15.3 sec Street start, 5-60 mph: 6.1 sec Standing 1/4-mile: 13.4 sec @ 104 mph Top speed (est): 150 mph Braking, 70-0 mph: 171 ft Roadholding, 300-ft-dia skidpad: 0.94 g Cheers, David