Discussion
XJ13 said:
In his own words, Bob Blake said (according to Paul Skilleter),
" ... I made all the frames and bits and pieces, including all the wooden tools to make everything from. I made the first set of bumpers by cutting down the big old bumper, using the top radius and the bottom radius, cutting the flute out and welding the two pieces together."
You can't believe everything that hacks write, some of them even work for the Sun." ... I made all the frames and bits and pieces, including all the wooden tools to make everything from. I made the first set of bumpers by cutting down the big old bumper, using the top radius and the bottom radius, cutting the flute out and welding the two pieces together."
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 16th November 16:00
XJ13 said:
lowdrag said:
From the horse's mouth comes the real truth - the screens are not from a Consul but were made independently. I am hoping to have a "spare" screen frame which was just "hanging around" by the end of the day.
Who, may I ask, was the "horse"? I understand the person who is credited with designing a lot of the XKSS was Bob Blake who sadly is no longer with us. I was told by one of his contemporaries that one of his first responsibilities was to convert the stock of obsolete D-Type racers into road cars. He altered the D-Type body and added parts such as bumpers and hood frame. In his own words, Bob Blake said (according to Paul Skilleter)," ... I made all the frames and bits and pieces, including all the wooden tools to make everything from. I made the first set of bumpers by cutting down the big old bumper, using the top radius and the bottom radius, cutting the flute out and welding the two pieces together."
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 16th November 16:00
XJ13 said:
Who, may I ask, was the "horse"? I understand the person who is credited with designing a lot of the XKSS was Bob Blake who sadly is no longer with us. I was told by one of his contemporaries that one of his first responsibilities was to convert the stock of obsolete D-Type racers into road cars. He altered the D-Type body and added parts such as bumpers and hood frame. In his own words, Bob Blake said (according to Paul Skilleter),
" ... I made all the frames and bits and pieces, including all the wooden tools to make everything from. I made the first set of bumpers by cutting down the big old bumper, using the top radius and the bottom radius, cutting the flute out and welding the two pieces together."
XJ13, that's also what I've been told and I'm sure there was an XKSS article a little while back confirming this...ah yes, Octane 09.04 pages 53&54 article on XKS 5.
Also, Octane 06.09 page 86 "In absolute detail, reputedly a rear window from a Buick or Chrysler.." article on XSV 884.
Though neither of the above are definitive sources; so from where were the original screens sourced?
" ... I made all the frames and bits and pieces, including all the wooden tools to make everything from. I made the first set of bumpers by cutting down the big old bumper, using the top radius and the bottom radius, cutting the flute out and welding the two pieces together."
XJ13, that's also what I've been told and I'm sure there was an XKSS article a little while back confirming this...ah yes, Octane 09.04 pages 53&54 article on XKS 5.
Also, Octane 06.09 page 86 "In absolute detail, reputedly a rear window from a Buick or Chrysler.." article on XSV 884.
Though neither of the above are definitive sources; so from where were the original screens sourced?
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 16th November 16:00
a8hex said:
I'm sure the bumper sections I've seen from 701 are alloy and they fit the corners of the XKSS, so it would be lucky if they could have been cut out of an existing part.
By all accounts - if anyone could have done it, Bob Blake certainly could!Accepting that Jaguar tended to use whatever was at hand in projects of this sort, and bearing in mind the main reason for the conversion was to shift a stock of "obsolete" cars (little did they know of the value of D-Types today
), it wouldn't surprise me at all if they mackled some up from an existing stock of bumpers. I think it unlikely Lyons would have wanted to spend much money on the conversion. Bob Blake was certainly talented enough to have formed alloy bumpers if that is what was needed - or perhaps the origins of any "alloy bumpers"/"spare screen surrounds" lie closer to East Sussex than Coventry. When cars have passed through workshops it must be temptingly easy to claim "originality" for non-original "surplus" parts that may find their way into other projects. It certainly wouldn't be the first time!If the quote is accurate, then I personally lean towards his assertion that Blake made (at least) some bumpers in the way described.
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 16th November 18:37
Calm down dears! The horse in question does not come from Sussex, and since the person in question has substantial personal knowledge of restoring several XKSS's many years back I tend to believe him. I'm afraid that so many of the accepted "truths" came from people who were getting on in years, and might have made a mistake. I am pursuing this further, and will post further. It might be that they were a Consul rear window (we seem to be agreed that it couldn't have been a front screen) but it might also be that the bConsul screen is almost identical to an XKSS screen. I've no idea, but just calm it until I find out more please.
XJ13 said:
a8hex said:
I'm sure the bumper sections I've seen from 701 are alloy and they fit the corners of the XKSS, so it would be lucky if they could have been cut out of an existing part.
By all accounts - if anyone could have done it, Bob Blake certainly could!Accepting that Jaguar tended to use whatever was at hand in projects of this sort, and bearing in mind the main reason for the conversion was to shift a stock of "obsolete" cars (little did they know of the value of D-Types today
), it wouldn't surprise me at all if they mackled some up from an existing stock of bumpers. I think it unlikely Lyons would have wanted to spend much money on the conversion. Bob Blake was certainly talented enough to have formed alloy bumpers if that is what was needed - or perhaps the origins of any "alloy bumpers"/"spare screen surrounds" lie closer to East Sussex than Coventry. When cars have passed through workshops it must be temptingly easy to claim "originality" for non-original "surplus" parts that may find their way into other projects. It certainly wouldn't be the first time!If the quote is accurate, then I personally lean towards his assertion that Blake made (at least) some bumpers in the way described.
Edited by XJ13 on Wednesday 16th November 18:37
But prior to this one of the rear bumpers was damaged and replaced and on a visit to RGC I was shown the rear bumpers, simply because they were sitting on the desk of the guy I was talking too.
Still, I look forward to Tony's details when they become clearer. Like your's he is involved in an interesting project and it is likely to bring to life information we here don't currently have.
I'm afraid that I am one who never subscribes to the dictum that what is written is always correct. When Norman first saw my C-type he thought it was too long, but later changed his mind and said it was too wide. Now it couldn't possibly be too wide since the centre tub is pure C-type, as is the chassis which was copied from one of the surviving very original cars, and the rest must follow that line. Norman isn't in the flower of his youth anymore, but for his age he is wonderful, and anyone who saw him step into E2A at the Festival for the first time in 50 years and promptly opposite lock the car at the first bend will agree with me that he is bloody marvellous; but memory starts to play tricks - mine does anyway. I do know that the alloy bumpers are particular to each car, since all the bodies were hand made and so the alloy bumpers had to be fettled to fit each one individually. It's like one E-type bonnet won't fit another either. The bumpers I have acquired will therefore need fettling and rechroming before fitting. I shall where possible be following through the business of the screen, but frankly to me it doesn't matter at all if it is from a Consul or not. I need one and that's that.
a8hex said:
Perhaps he made the "prototype" bumper in this way, I would have thought that from then on it would have been cheaper to fabricate the bumpers from alloy. The plan at one stage had been to make 50 XKSSs so they would be eligible for the SCCA events, a small production run cutting up "spare" bumpers and welding them up would, I guess be comparatively expensive.
Very sound logic - as always 
Makes complete sense to me.a8hex said:
Still, I look forward to Tony's details when they become clearer. Like your's he is involved in an interesting project and it is likely to bring to life information we here don't currently have.
Replica or not - the XKSS is such a pretty car and I look forward to following Tony's progress/discoveries ... even if his comments do have shades of Michael Winner/David Cameron. You aren't an Old Etonian by any chance are you Tony? (only kidding) Calm Down DearEdited by XJ13 on Thursday 17th November 08:58
lowdrag said:
Calm down dears! The horse in question does not come from Sussex, and since the person in question has substantial personal knowledge of restoring several XKSS's many years back I tend to believe him. I'm afraid that so many of the accepted "truths" came from people who were getting on in years, and might have made a mistake. I am pursuing this further, and will post further. It might be that they were a Consul rear window (we seem to be agreed that it couldn't have been a front screen) but it might also be that the bConsul screen is almost identical to an XKSS screen. I've no idea, but just calm it until I find out more please.
Lowdrag, if you look at the photos it occurs to me that the Consul screen is far, far too wide to fit an XKSS. The Consul was a big car and it just doesn'e seem feasible that the screen would fit.J
A bit of further information. All the bumpers were hand made for each car in alloy, and I believe the first couple weren't chromed but the rest were. Not too clear on this point though. Since each D-type was hand made, it follows that you can't take one set of bumpers off one car and fit them on another since they were all made to fit individually. My own bumper set, for example, were made for a specific XKSS but will have to be changed a bit and then rechromed. As regards the windscreen, in 1976 when a restoration was carried out on an XKSS they trawled the scrapyards for a Consul item and found it didn't fit. Seems to be one of those bits of misinformation that have become part of the "official" history. The good news is that Pilkington's still make XKSS screens at a relatively reasonable cost of £470 inc VAT. How's that for a car of which only 16 were made (or 26 if you include the Lynx replicas)?
lowdrag said:
The good news is that Pilkington's still make XKSS screens at a relatively reasonable cost of £470 inc VAT. How's that for a car of which only 16 were made (or 26 if you include the Lynx replicas)?
Yeah but there's loads of misinformed Consul owners buying them for rear screens for their cars. 
a8hex said:
I wonder these days which are rarer? Consul or XKSS?
Well, according to www.howmanyleft.co.uk there are exactly 100 Mk II Consuls left of whch 69 are on the road.Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff