Classics dwarfed by moderns

[300bhp/ton]

72twink said:

300bhp/ton - you are right, everything you have said is right, we all beleive you and are convinced by your argument ...... and yes, I deliberately drove my car around my car park at work until I found 2 huge cars in different market sectors to make a point on PH, either that or I (like lots of us) picked the biggest spot available and took one last glance at my car, sniggered to myself and captured it on my phone.

That all nice and all, but all that proves is you parked in a big space next to different types of cars.

Park an AC3000ME next to say any of these; S1 Elise, smart Roadster, GTM Libra, Marlin EX5i, GTM Evolution, hell even a Daihatsu Copen and the size difference will be much less.

[shoestring7]

GTO plus the Ferrari called a GTO, but which is really a MPV as the GTO has *really* been replaced by a Dino replacement.

Or something.



SS7

[300bhp/ton]

I think it's the width more than anything (and the styling... ). But certainly width for European cars which has increased.

Oddly in the USA I think they have stayed the same or got smaller though. e.g. a new Dodge Challenger is only 75.7" wide vs 76.3" for it's 1972 counter part.

[72twink]

300bhp/ton said:

That all nice and all, but all that proves is you parked in a big space next to different types of cars.

Park an AC3000ME next to say any of these; S1 Elise, smart Roadster, GTM Libra, Marlin EX5i, GTM Evolution, hell even a Daihatsu Copen and the size difference will be much less.

Sadly I'm the only one here with any imagination so the ME is the only interesting thing in the car park - it does prove I have a sense of humour though, along with all the others who posted here with old stuff next to big modern stuff, which was the point from the outset - note the thread title, it's not "Classics dwarfed by moderns from the same market sector".

[Cledus Snow]

Aeroplanes are getting bigger....


Or is my car shrinking.

[300bhp/ton]

72twink said:

Sadly I'm the only one here with any imagination so the ME is the only interesting thing in the car park

The ME is waay cool, one of my fav looking cars of all time. There's a lovely white one at a show I go to in the summer.

72twink said:

- it does prove I have a sense of humour though, along with all the others who posted here with old stuff next to big modern stuff, which was the point from the outset - note the thread title, it's not "Classics dwarfed by moderns from the same market sector".

Was a tad too subtle for me then. Apologies

[72twink]

And Jon's car was admired by many more last weekend at the NEC!

[evil len]

300bhp/ton said:

	Wheelbase	Length	Width	Height	Weight
Escort	94.8	159.3	62.8	53.8	995kg
Fiesta Sedan	98	173.6	67.8	58	1169kg
Fiesta Hatch	98	160	67.8	58	1151kg

I know the names are different, but as you can see from the pictures above, the sedan Fiesta is actually offering up pretty much the same package/ability as the Escort did in the 70's. The Fiesta is not a compact city car. But a compact family car aka an 'average' family car today.

In terms of size, ok it's a tiny bit bigger and certainly has chunky styling and big bumpers. But it's really a very similar size to the Escort. The hatch version even more so being the same length and only marginally wider.

I'm not quite sure if you are saying "look, these two cars haven't changed much" or "look, what was considered a 'small' car (the fiesta) is now the same size as what was considered a 'medium' car (the escort)"

I'll assume the latter, in which case that's shocking and proves the point of this thread. Even more so if you compare the Fiesta details above with the original mk1 Fiesta, which was wheelbase 90, length 140, width 60

[Wuzzle]

300bhp/ton said:

I think it's the width more than anything (and the styling... ). But certainly width for European cars which has increased.

Oddly in the USA I think they have stayed the same or got smaller though. e.g. a new Dodge Challenger is only 75.7" wide vs 76.3" for it's 1972 counter part.

What's your point Cletus?

[jamesatcandsc]

Apologies for appalling photo (will try again in daylight if the 308 is still there), but here is a massively imposing in its day 6.3-litre continent crossing plutocrat's GT... and a modern compact hatchback.

[NotNormal]

DBSV8 said:

great photo , do you have any more of the E Types

Pics are from recent Lord Mayors Show - http://carscoop.blogspot.com/2012/11/new-jaguar-f-...

[theadman]

300bhp/ton said:

NotNormal said:

of which the modern day equivelant is this

Well to me I'd say the new F-Type has chunkier styling, this doesn't mean it's bigger.

In fact looking at the stats:

	Length	Wheelbase	Height	Weight
E-Type	105	184	51	1530kg
F-Type	103.2	176	51	1597kg

So the E-Type is longer and has longer wheelbase and they are the same height. In fact the F-Type is only bigger in one dimension - "width" (can't find proper stats for this, as I think the ones quoted include mirrors). Guessing 4 to 5" difference here. But the E-Type was particularly narrow even in it's day and when compared to it's peers from mainland Europe, America or even home grown rivals like Aston Martin.

Jaguar would appear to have made a technological breakthrough based on this very interesting table...a wheelbase greater than the overall length...a massive move forward in active safety as these cars will incredibly stable!

Even if the wheelbase and overall length have been transposed I'm sure my E-type wasn't 15'4"...maybe this is the 2+2 length (not the car in the picture)?

Anorak of the month award?

[black and green]

300bhp/ton said:

Agoogy said:

I disagree, the fact smaller, lesser vehicles are shoehorned beneath it means nothing, it still occupies the same place otherwise BMW would call it something else....
unless you believe that the next Porsche 911 could/would actaully be a 5 door 7 seater?

Car makers do it because selling more expensive cars generally have a larger profit margin. So by moving the 3 Series up a market and retaining most of your customer base means more turnover and more profit.

For example how many Golf buyers today were Golf buyers and want to be Golf buyers from yesteryear? I suspect quite a healthy percentage. But today's Golf is significantly more expensive and plush than the Golf of the 1970's.

Agoogy said:

Gone in the same way the Carlton/Senator has - no money to be made there...the reason why there are no big Renaults and big Citreons...they just don't sell...thats not to say we won't evr see their like again though...

Well there was the Citreon C6...

But that aside there are BIG Fords and Vauxhalls - the Insignia and the Mondeo. You yourself say you'd change the name. Well Insignia is not the same name as Vectra....

Agoogy said:

And then Mini and Fiesta still arguably compete today, again introducing a sub market - Ka doesn't mean the Fiesta is moved 'up'...otherwise one day if one particular manufactuerer left it's vehicle naming alone and the other did not, you could have a giant test in CAR magazine of the new Fiesta, vs the 911 vs the S Class....never happens does it....its alwasy Focus/Astra/Golf....Mondeo, 3 series, A4, C class etc

You are taking it to an extreme. And ignoring the fact that car makers do actually use new names and the ones that don't usually up move the model, so name for name they still compete with the same vehicles.

Agoogy said:

The Rover 200 was poorly packaged from the outset and was simply caught out by the competition...it was the begining of the end in terms of Rover's product planning and strategy...

Erm it was one of Rover's best selling cars. It was brilliantly packaged and did very well. Would you like a link to a full on article about it's development history and production success?

Agoogy said:

All answered previously - each car, if it were to occupy a 'new' market sector would be renamed, why would you move the name up market?

You don't have to rename anything. Often a successful model has a good customer base, following and reputation. Also the market likes familiarity. However at other times something new and fresh is needed.

e.g.

Escort to Focus - this alone goes against what you've just said. Why would they rename it if it wasn't moving the market position?

Rover 600 & 800 to Rover 75

Vauxhall Vectra to Insignia

Agoogy said:

that clearly doesn't work....

Maybe you should take a look at the price of a new Range Rover in the 1980's vs a new one today. It clearly works. While the original RR was an up market Land Rover, it was very much pitched at being highly available.

The current RR is a top class luxury vehicle and commands eye watering price tags, so much so that despite being heavily involved in the Land Rover community I don't actually know a single person who owns a new full fat Range Rover.

Land Rover even introduced the Discovery model to fill the void by moving the Range Rover more up market.

Agoogy said:

If an Insignia happened to be 5 series sized would it be marketed as an Insignia - the replacement for the Vectra?

lol read your sentence back to yourself, it doesn't make sense.

The Insignia was a "new" model name, so firstly counters your earlier argument. But you are also ignoring the fact that the MK2 Vectra moved the Vectra more up market. Which is probably why you see far less of them. Neither are 5 Series rivals, but in relative market position they are not the same as a Cavalier was.

Agoogy said:

- just imagine that the Vectra replacement happened to have grown so much in size (and price) that it now sat within the confines of the 5 series price list....who would choose that? how would it get past the bean counters and marketing people? it wouldn't, it 'sits' within the 3 series, Mondeo, Passat, A4 market, and each of them were successors of the previous generation - sometimes the name changes to promote something 'new'...sometimes they don't, that doesn't mean the lineage is broken or not there....the buying public just demand more and the manufacturers try and give it along with the necessary legislation adhering increase in size for safety and practical reasons.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree. The only thing I see is a similar naming or naming strategy on some models and makes. I do however see cars being pitched at different sectors, potential customers and sitting in a different positions within a car makers own line up, regardless of their name.

And so dies another initially interesting thread.

[300bhp/ton]

evil len said:

I'm not quite sure if you are saying "look, these two cars haven't changed much" or "look, what was considered a 'small' car (the fiesta) is now the same size as what was considered a 'medium' car (the escort)"

I'll assume the latter, in which case that's shocking and proves the point of this thread. Even more so if you compare the Fiesta details above with the original mk1 Fiesta, which was wheelbase 90, length 140, width 60

I'm saying the same class of car to do the same job is still pretty much the same size. Ignore the names. In the car makers model line up, the market position, the price and the target audience these cars are pitched pretty much the same.

[RichB]

black and green said:

And so dies another initially interesting thread.

You can rely on it on Pistonheads. No one can simply state their opinion and let it be, there's always someone like a dog with a bone!

[ajprice]

300bhp/ton said:

evil len said:

I'm not quite sure if you are saying "look, these two cars haven't changed much" or "look, what was considered a 'small' car (the fiesta) is now the same size as what was considered a 'medium' car (the escort)"

I'll assume the latter, in which case that's shocking and proves the point of this thread. Even more so if you compare the Fiesta details above with the original mk1 Fiesta, which was wheelbase 90, length 140, width 60

I'm saying the same class of car to do the same job is still pretty much the same size. Ignore the names. In the car makers model line up, the market position, the price and the target audience these cars are pitched pretty much the same.

No. A Nova was a small Vauxhall in the 80s, a Corsa is a small Vauxhall now. An S Class has always been a big Mercedes.

For each generation of a car to be better than the last, the usual way to do it is a bit more space inside, more performance, and more big car features, this makes each generation bigger and heavier. Rover 800s, Scorpios, Omegas etc aren't around now because people wanted a BMW/Mercedes/Audi etc instead, these equivalent German premium cars are still around.

[MrMoonyMan]

lowdrag said:

Now a Honda S800 next to an S2000 perhaps?

[vixen1700]

jamesatcandsc said:

Apologies for appalling photo (will try again in daylight if the 308 is still there), but here is a massively imposing in its day 6.3-litre continent crossing plutocrat's GT... and a modern compact hatchback.

No apologies needed, it shows the difference in size admirably.

[300bhp/ton]

ajprice said:

No. A Nova was a small Vauxhall in the 80s, a Corsa is a small Vauxhall now.

Well the current Corsa sits above the Agila and ADAM, so it's not the smallest or the entry level model.

[davepoth]

ajprice said:

No. A Nova was a small Vauxhall in the 80s, a Corsa is a small Vauxhall now. An S Class has always been a big Mercedes.

For each generation of a car to be better than the last, the usual way to do it is a bit more space inside, more performance, and more big car features, this makes each generation bigger and heavier. Rover 800s, Scorpios, Omegas etc aren't around now because people wanted a BMW/Mercedes/Audi etc instead, these equivalent German premium cars are still around.

But this go-around we have Insignias and Mondeos that nobody is buying because they can get a slightly smaller "premium" car for the same money.