$5M to invest in classics for long term..
Discussion
lowdrag said:
The "mode" today is to "invest" in classic cars. I've already posted ad nauseam how it irks me to see this trend, but then lemmings died to a man and I can't reverse the trend. You have to understand that classic cars are no longer for driving, least of all if there is a cloud in the sky, and are purely there to compare to the HAGI index which is quoted every month in a classic magazine. If you subscribe to it (not sure how much per month) I believe you can compare it to other indices, such as gold, silver, duck poo and other incredibly valuable things.
I've also posted how it has changed by driving, less intent on pedal to the metal since the value of my estate for my kids keeps popping into my head. It's spoiled the fun of being a classic car owner a bit - no, a lot. But the anti-lemming investment trust, with a negative curve value, would not please the investor here. He's out to make money with perhaps little passion for cars. I know not, but it brings to mind the sale of the Ecurie Ecosse cars where the C-type, D-type and the transporter were all sold to a New York art dealer who thought that cars were a better investment than his current and past way of life. Like many such owners (another Ecurie Ecosse car comes to mind) the cars will be shown or raced "in the right places" to further increase their history and elusive value. Pebble Beach, Laguna Seca, The Festival and the Revival all come to mind. Except that in the case of one car I know it will be "raced" but never win, always seeking to have it seen in the right places but with never the chance of an opposite lock, never a dice, turning relentlessly around the circuit at 7/10ths maximum, all in the name of increased value. It must never be dented. It must be seen, the "history" must relentlessly keep increasing, and all in the godless name of money. I would love to seek a passion where nothing has a value, is used, and is just fun, with no thought of profit but I can't find one. Old fishing rods and reels are up in value, automobilia is now sky-high, old football jerseys, rugby shorts (with sweat and DNA as proof of course) - you name it, it has become an investment.
Rant over.
I've also posted how it has changed by driving, less intent on pedal to the metal since the value of my estate for my kids keeps popping into my head. It's spoiled the fun of being a classic car owner a bit - no, a lot. But the anti-lemming investment trust, with a negative curve value, would not please the investor here. He's out to make money with perhaps little passion for cars. I know not, but it brings to mind the sale of the Ecurie Ecosse cars where the C-type, D-type and the transporter were all sold to a New York art dealer who thought that cars were a better investment than his current and past way of life. Like many such owners (another Ecurie Ecosse car comes to mind) the cars will be shown or raced "in the right places" to further increase their history and elusive value. Pebble Beach, Laguna Seca, The Festival and the Revival all come to mind. Except that in the case of one car I know it will be "raced" but never win, always seeking to have it seen in the right places but with never the chance of an opposite lock, never a dice, turning relentlessly around the circuit at 7/10ths maximum, all in the name of increased value. It must never be dented. It must be seen, the "history" must relentlessly keep increasing, and all in the godless name of money. I would love to seek a passion where nothing has a value, is used, and is just fun, with no thought of profit but I can't find one. Old fishing rods and reels are up in value, automobilia is now sky-high, old football jerseys, rugby shorts (with sweat and DNA as proof of course) - you name it, it has become an investment.
Rant over.
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 24th April 18:57
Excellent post. It mirrors exactly how I feel about the ever inflating classic market. The top end has always been unattainable to all but the very few, but our current bubble is pushing everything old into higher priced territory. It seems the mentality is that anything old is a classic, and thus should cost an extortionate amount. All of this regardless of the condition or even inherent worth of the car. And nothing is safe from the halo effect- should one car shoot into the stratosphere for whatever reason, history or provenance, all similar or vaguely related models should increase.
And as you mentioned, there are a host of issues that come with increasing prices: it dampens the enjoyment of ownership, becomes unobtainable by enthusiasts and often into the hands of 'collectors,' the list goes on. But all of that can be left for another post.
as you said that, I just looked at a few B James & Dick Walker Mk IV Carp and Avon rods like the pair I've had since I was a kid. They're about £500 each !!! 
Fayaz LP640 said:
lowdrag said:
The "mode" today is to "invest" in classic cars. I've already posted ad nauseam how it irks me to see this trend, but then lemmings died to a man and I can't reverse the trend. You have to understand that classic cars are no longer for driving, least of all if there is a cloud in the sky, and are purely there to compare to the HAGI index which is quoted every month in a classic magazine. If you subscribe to it (not sure how much per month) I believe you can compare it to other indices, such as gold, silver, duck poo and other incredibly valuable things.
I've also posted how it has changed by driving, less intent on pedal to the metal since the value of my estate for my kids keeps popping into my head. It's spoiled the fun of being a classic car owner a bit - no, a lot. But the anti-lemming investment trust, with a negative curve value, would not please the investor here. He's out to make money with perhaps little passion for cars. I know not, but it brings to mind the sale of the Ecurie Ecosse cars where the C-type, D-type and the transporter were all sold to a New York art dealer who thought that cars were a better investment than his current and past way of life. Like many such owners (another Ecurie Ecosse car comes to mind) the cars will be shown or raced "in the right places" to further increase their history and elusive value. Pebble Beach, Laguna Seca, The Festival and the Revival all come to mind. Except that in the case of one car I know it will be "raced" but never win, always seeking to have it seen in the right places but with never the chance of an opposite lock, never a dice, turning relentlessly around the circuit at 7/10ths maximum, all in the name of increased value. It must never be dented. It must be seen, the "history" must relentlessly keep increasing, and all in the godless name of money. I would love to seek a passion where nothing has a value, is used, and is just fun, with no thought of profit but I can't find one. Old fishing rods and reels are up in value, automobilia is now sky-high, old football jerseys, rugby shorts (with sweat and DNA as proof of course) - you name it, it has become an investment.
Rant over.
I've also posted how it has changed by driving, less intent on pedal to the metal since the value of my estate for my kids keeps popping into my head. It's spoiled the fun of being a classic car owner a bit - no, a lot. But the anti-lemming investment trust, with a negative curve value, would not please the investor here. He's out to make money with perhaps little passion for cars. I know not, but it brings to mind the sale of the Ecurie Ecosse cars where the C-type, D-type and the transporter were all sold to a New York art dealer who thought that cars were a better investment than his current and past way of life. Like many such owners (another Ecurie Ecosse car comes to mind) the cars will be shown or raced "in the right places" to further increase their history and elusive value. Pebble Beach, Laguna Seca, The Festival and the Revival all come to mind. Except that in the case of one car I know it will be "raced" but never win, always seeking to have it seen in the right places but with never the chance of an opposite lock, never a dice, turning relentlessly around the circuit at 7/10ths maximum, all in the name of increased value. It must never be dented. It must be seen, the "history" must relentlessly keep increasing, and all in the godless name of money. I would love to seek a passion where nothing has a value, is used, and is just fun, with no thought of profit but I can't find one. Old fishing rods and reels are up in value, automobilia is now sky-high, old football jerseys, rugby shorts (with sweat and DNA as proof of course) - you name it, it has become an investment.
Rant over.
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 24th April 18:57
Excellent post. It mirrors exactly how I feel about the ever inflating classic market. The top end has always been unattainable to all but the very few, but our current bubble is pushing everything old into higher priced territory. It seems the mentality is that anything old is a classic, and thus should cost an extortionate amount. All of this regardless of the condition or even inherent worth of the car. And nothing is safe from the halo effect- should one car shoot into the stratosphere for whatever reason, history or provenance, all similar or vaguely related models should increase.
And as you mentioned, there are a host of issues that come with increasing prices: it dampens the enjoyment of ownership, becomes unobtainable by enthusiasts and often into the hands of 'collectors,' the list goes on. But all of that can be left for another post.
Yes he's worked damned hard to afford all these and slowly and surely he is building an appreciation of these cars. There are sill lots of classic cars that are afforable and not rising in price (MGs etc) and these cars going from 100k to 300k each as no relevance to 99.98% of the world..
Treat this thread a different way...yes its reality but do a 'what if I won $20m..' and now say what you would buy by way of classics.
Paracetamol said:
...do a 'what if I won $20m..' and now say what you would buy by way of classics.
I did that at the beginning of the thread and I've always said I would try to build a balanced collection of cars from each decade or period of motoring. A hanger full of Ferraris holds no interest. It would be fun to grow the collection over time as favourite cars became available. Paracetamol, knowing where you live there is a lot of money slushing around, but the point I am making is that this money used to be directed into shares, property and the like. Alternative investments included wine and gold etc. - but not classic cars. This was always the preserve of those bearded rather weird people who didn't like comfort and aircon but preferred to get wet and be "different". Like a stone rolling down hill, since the crash and the second raping by the banks with effectively negative interest on our savings the alternate investment scene has grown apace, with a Dinky car which cost 20p fetching £20,000. Of course, he'll probably take it out of its box - but very carefully so as not to lose half his investment by damaging the cardboard - put it away, and hoard it gleefully. If only someone had explained to me sixty years ago that I wasn't allowed to play with my toys! I still have my train set in it's box but it won't be worth a lot; we used to take pot shots at the tank engine with the air rifle although the Duchess of Montrose was spared such indignity.
I digress. The point is that the likes of the much-loved and departed Alan Clark exist no more bar a few nuggets such as Nick Mason, Chris Evans and the younge Richard(?) Walker, who is one of my heroes. Hammering around his - own - village in a C-type with the dog brought a smile to Alan's face and mine when I watched him. And for sure, his cars were "patinated" to the extreme.
Being raped by the banks a few years back was upsetting but then we expect that from merchant bankers (sic), but having my particular passion and by reference myself treated in the same fashion hits a very personal nerve. I know, I know, I'm a Luddite, fast becoming left behind in my own world, but at least that was a world I was comfy in, like-minded people meeting for a pint no matter what the weather, going as friends to visit a mutual dear friend in the last days of his life arriving in C and D-types in hail on Boxing Day just to make him smile. He died 10 days later, but I will always remember that day in his "man cave", the autographs of Graham Hill, Moss, plus numerous others all over the the wall. And his numerous trophies. And the roaring fire when, shivering with cold, we stopped in Stockbridge on the way home for a pint or two.
That's it, part two of my rant over and I'll comment no more. I just hope that the UAE has an agreed dealership capable of servicing the Z8 and a body shop also contracted to BMW if it needs such. Rather esoteric requirements, these cars, as have all the modern exotica. Me? I can take my cars anywhere for repair.
Best of luck with your E-type rebuild. Mine should be ready before the end of May.
I digress. The point is that the likes of the much-loved and departed Alan Clark exist no more bar a few nuggets such as Nick Mason, Chris Evans and the younge Richard(?) Walker, who is one of my heroes. Hammering around his - own - village in a C-type with the dog brought a smile to Alan's face and mine when I watched him. And for sure, his cars were "patinated" to the extreme.
Being raped by the banks a few years back was upsetting but then we expect that from merchant bankers (sic), but having my particular passion and by reference myself treated in the same fashion hits a very personal nerve. I know, I know, I'm a Luddite, fast becoming left behind in my own world, but at least that was a world I was comfy in, like-minded people meeting for a pint no matter what the weather, going as friends to visit a mutual dear friend in the last days of his life arriving in C and D-types in hail on Boxing Day just to make him smile. He died 10 days later, but I will always remember that day in his "man cave", the autographs of Graham Hill, Moss, plus numerous others all over the the wall. And his numerous trophies. And the roaring fire when, shivering with cold, we stopped in Stockbridge on the way home for a pint or two.
That's it, part two of my rant over and I'll comment no more. I just hope that the UAE has an agreed dealership capable of servicing the Z8 and a body shop also contracted to BMW if it needs such. Rather esoteric requirements, these cars, as have all the modern exotica. Me? I can take my cars anywhere for repair.
Best of luck with your E-type rebuild. Mine should be ready before the end of May.
lowdrag said:
The "mode" today is to "invest" in classic cars. I've already posted ad nauseam how it irks me to see this trend, but then lemmings died to a man and I can't reverse the trend. You have to understand that classic cars are no longer for driving, least of all if there is a cloud in the sky, and are purely there to compare to the HAGI index which is quoted every month in a classic magazine. If you subscribe to it (not sure how much per month) I believe you can compare it to other indices, such as gold, silver, duck poo and other incredibly valuable things.
I've also posted how it has changed by driving, less intent on pedal to the metal since the value of my estate for my kids keeps popping into my head. It's spoiled the fun of being a classic car owner a bit - no, a lot. But the anti-lemming investment trust, with a negative curve value, would not please the investor here. He's out to make money with perhaps little passion for cars. I know not, but it brings to mind the sale of the Ecurie Ecosse cars where the C-type, D-type and the transporter were all sold to a New York art dealer who thought that cars were a better investment than his current and past way of life. Like many such owners (another Ecurie Ecosse car comes to mind) the cars will be shown or raced "in the right places" to further increase their history and elusive value. Pebble Beach, Laguna Seca, The Festival and the Revival all come to mind. Except that in the case of one car I know it will be "raced" but never win, always seeking to have it seen in the right places but with never the chance of an opposite lock, never a dice, turning relentlessly around the circuit at 7/10ths maximum, all in the name of increased value. It must never be dented. It must be seen, the "history" must relentlessly keep increasing, and all in the godless name of money. I would love to seek a passion where nothing has a value, is used, and is just fun, with no thought of profit but I can't find one. Old fishing rods and reels are up in value, automobilia is now sky-high, old football jerseys, rugby shorts (with sweat and DNA as proof of course) - you name it, it has become an investment.
Rant over.
Excellent - value goes up, driving/enjoyment goes down. And that deprives many generations of seeing/hearing these magnificent machines in their natural habitat. A museum, a zoo is where they are ending up.I've also posted how it has changed by driving, less intent on pedal to the metal since the value of my estate for my kids keeps popping into my head. It's spoiled the fun of being a classic car owner a bit - no, a lot. But the anti-lemming investment trust, with a negative curve value, would not please the investor here. He's out to make money with perhaps little passion for cars. I know not, but it brings to mind the sale of the Ecurie Ecosse cars where the C-type, D-type and the transporter were all sold to a New York art dealer who thought that cars were a better investment than his current and past way of life. Like many such owners (another Ecurie Ecosse car comes to mind) the cars will be shown or raced "in the right places" to further increase their history and elusive value. Pebble Beach, Laguna Seca, The Festival and the Revival all come to mind. Except that in the case of one car I know it will be "raced" but never win, always seeking to have it seen in the right places but with never the chance of an opposite lock, never a dice, turning relentlessly around the circuit at 7/10ths maximum, all in the name of increased value. It must never be dented. It must be seen, the "history" must relentlessly keep increasing, and all in the godless name of money. I would love to seek a passion where nothing has a value, is used, and is just fun, with no thought of profit but I can't find one. Old fishing rods and reels are up in value, automobilia is now sky-high, old football jerseys, rugby shorts (with sweat and DNA as proof of course) - you name it, it has become an investment.
Rant over.
Where is he going to store $5m of classic cars? Is he going to use them? Moth ball them? Maintain them? I think he really needs to know a bit more than ask a few mates if he knows little about the market. Because he could get burned very very badly if the market drops out ( and it has, and it will again.. ).
All I would suggest is buy only proven blue-chip cars with preferably cast iron or racing history at big money prices, because they are most likely to survive the next bust. I would not go near regular mint, concourse 100-point e-types or Astons at £100,000+ as investments unless they are important historical examples, as they will most likely take the biggest hits when it does go poop.
All I would suggest is buy only proven blue-chip cars with preferably cast iron or racing history at big money prices, because they are most likely to survive the next bust. I would not go near regular mint, concourse 100-point e-types or Astons at £100,000+ as investments unless they are important historical examples, as they will most likely take the biggest hits when it does go poop.
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Saturday 26th April 18:55
Furyblade_Lee said:
Where is he going to store $5m of classic cars? Is he going to use them? Moth ball them? Maintain them? I think he really needs to know a bit more than ask a few mates if he knows little about the market. Because he could get burned very very badly if the market drops out ( and it has, and it will again.. ).
All I would suggest is buy only proven blue-chip cars with preferably cast iron or racing history at big money prices, because they are most likely to survive the next bust. I would not go near regular mint, concourse 100-point e-types or Astons at £100,000+ as investments unless they are important historical examples, as they will most likely take the biggest hits when it does go poop.
To be fair..storage is proving to be the biggest headache. Its likely that a property investment will be used so that the storage costs can be recouped with potential property gains..All I would suggest is buy only proven blue-chip cars with preferably cast iron or racing history at big money prices, because they are most likely to survive the next bust. I would not go near regular mint, concourse 100-point e-types or Astons at £100,000+ as investments unless they are important historical examples, as they will most likely take the biggest hits when it does go poop.
Edited by Furyblade_Lee on Saturday 26th April 18:55
The idea will be to maintain the top end cars with regular annual services etc but to mothball the cheaper cars with the view to recommission them as they come out of storage
dartissimus said:
Re this discussion, two phrases spring to mind : "The price of everything and the value of nothing" and "Bad money drives out good"
OP - you're in the wrong place - try an investment forum.
second that - problem is in an Investment forum it'll get slaughtered for being the shi**iest investment idea since Alan Sugar bought Spurs.OP - you're in the wrong place - try an investment forum.
lowdrag said:
I wonder if any of you feel the same as me about the state of the market today? I was happy when I bought my cars, at prices which today seem ludicrous, not as an investment of course but out of passion for the make, but somehow I feel my passion has been hijacked by the money makers. The actual Lynx low drag I nearly bought is for sale at getting on for three times the price of 12 years ago. Furthermore, this hijacking has made me feel somewhat uncomfortable about driving the cars nowadays. I am more careful, don't drive like I used to, and am always aware just how high a percentage of my overall wealth they now are. For over 20 years after the last boom/bust the E-type was worth around £25,000 or so, not a vast sum in the scheme of things and actually an expendable like any other car I suppose. But now you only have to look at the Pistonheads for sale columns to see what is now the supposed value of such cars and it makes me uncomfortable to some degree. I can't take it with me when I go and the kids will sell them straight away so I shouldn't really care, but still I do. I wish the owner of the cars in this thread nothing but pleasure with his acquisitions, but the whole premise of the thread is somewhat at odds with my sentiments towards my cars.
Have the same sentiments to be honest. My garage consists of cars that I love to DRIVE, and they cost a fair bit of loot to maintain in that condition. If they're for investment I shouldn't bother. I was actually quite happy that values were relatively stable and that I (or my kids) wouldn't lose their shirt on them. All this talk of investment makes you aware of how much cash is under your right foot, a pretty uncomfortable feeling. Pushes you into driving like a pussy. These cars are for driving, that's the whole point and where the pleasure is to be found. My Aston has increased in value extraordinarily over the 7 years I've owned it - or at least that's what my insurance company keep telling me 
but it's to be driven. It's only dirt after all and it washes off 
but it's to be driven. It's only dirt after all and it washes off Rich, you know I love driving my cars, but I like driving them less hard than I used to, if you get my drift. But when I see comments like this:-
"To be fair, storage is proving to be the biggest headache. Its likely that a property investment will be used so that the storage costs can be recouped with potential property gains" the expression that it is impossible to put an old head on young shoulders comes to mind. "The war to end all wars" was followed a generation later by the 2nd World War as an example. I worry that people think that an increase in value is a given and that it will be a linear increase per annum. In another thread I mentioned tulip bulb investment, but I guess only us oldies would understand that comment. Someone of an age of about 40 is too young to remember the boom/bust of 1991/2, when companies were going bust all over the place. I think it is a sign of the times that the "dealers" no longer put their money where their mouth is but act as brokerages taking a whacking percentage on the sale price. No capital risk then, and no confidence in the future, and who can blame them.
(Reuters) - Commercial property prices slipped 4.9% in December, taking the market's total 2008 decline to 26.8 percent, data from the world's biggest property broker CB Richard Ellis showed on Friday.
Commercial properties are now on average 35.5 percent cheaper to buy than at a summer 2007 market peak, according to the CB Richard Ellis Monthly Index.
Quoted from 2009; property gains are a given then. Perhaps in the country we are concerned with, but not even there an odds on bet.
"To be fair, storage is proving to be the biggest headache. Its likely that a property investment will be used so that the storage costs can be recouped with potential property gains" the expression that it is impossible to put an old head on young shoulders comes to mind. "The war to end all wars" was followed a generation later by the 2nd World War as an example. I worry that people think that an increase in value is a given and that it will be a linear increase per annum. In another thread I mentioned tulip bulb investment, but I guess only us oldies would understand that comment. Someone of an age of about 40 is too young to remember the boom/bust of 1991/2, when companies were going bust all over the place. I think it is a sign of the times that the "dealers" no longer put their money where their mouth is but act as brokerages taking a whacking percentage on the sale price. No capital risk then, and no confidence in the future, and who can blame them.
(Reuters) - Commercial property prices slipped 4.9% in December, taking the market's total 2008 decline to 26.8 percent, data from the world's biggest property broker CB Richard Ellis showed on Friday.
Commercial properties are now on average 35.5 percent cheaper to buy than at a summer 2007 market peak, according to the CB Richard Ellis Monthly Index.
Quoted from 2009; property gains are a given then. Perhaps in the country we are concerned with, but not even there an odds on bet.
I arrived at this thread about an hour ago on a fact finding mission regarding modern Alfa 8C Competizione values and opinions. Someone I ...ahem... "know" has a mere (by comparison) £140k, or more critically at present - 200k EUR, that they have decided to tie up in a car which is to be enjoyed regularly and cherished without the colossal depreciation you get with a modern Ferrari, McLaren or Aston purchase. The aim, I suppose, is to find something which over 5 years won't lose much money but also represents a bit of a wildcard investment-punt... no firm investment status, but maybe a tiny inkling of "perhaps" which helps to justify the purchase. If it doesn't pay off, there would be no hard feelings. The 8C seems to fit the bill well (and values appear to have held in the last 2 years) but...
I have come away from this thread with a very empty feeling and am now questioning what I'm even doing here. Its dawned on me that any form of investment in cars is pretty much sacrilege, even if it is a punt at the back of my mind on a figure far lower than the OP's... these things are to be driven and enjoyed. And if even a small part of you is vaguely keeping tabs on such a purchase, you run the risk of not wanting to add miles, keeping a close eye on maintenance costs and, even worse than both those - not driving it like you "own" it.
I own the house I live in and love it regardless of how much or how little it is worth... it is, quite simply, home. Do I "own" my BTL properties? On paper, yes, but in my head they are purely investment tools yielding X%. I fill them with Beko appliances, nasty laminate flooring and trade paint... I get zero enjoyment out of them and constantly worry about the market turning or my interest rates going up. Do I want to park (excuse the pun) a collectable car in the same category? Nope... doubt my 'friend' does either...
All this makes me think that my investor friend should put his money into some more properties, keep £10k left over to buy a Triumph TR6, a BMW 2002 or a Mercedes SL R107 (just to satisfy their inherent 'investment' bug) and then use the profit from the bricks to lease a modern performance car and not care what its worth at the end!
Exit note... Carrera GT's being discussed on here in early 2014 at circa £300k.... ships, birds, sailed, flown...
I have come away from this thread with a very empty feeling and am now questioning what I'm even doing here. Its dawned on me that any form of investment in cars is pretty much sacrilege, even if it is a punt at the back of my mind on a figure far lower than the OP's... these things are to be driven and enjoyed. And if even a small part of you is vaguely keeping tabs on such a purchase, you run the risk of not wanting to add miles, keeping a close eye on maintenance costs and, even worse than both those - not driving it like you "own" it.
I own the house I live in and love it regardless of how much or how little it is worth... it is, quite simply, home. Do I "own" my BTL properties? On paper, yes, but in my head they are purely investment tools yielding X%. I fill them with Beko appliances, nasty laminate flooring and trade paint... I get zero enjoyment out of them and constantly worry about the market turning or my interest rates going up. Do I want to park (excuse the pun) a collectable car in the same category? Nope... doubt my 'friend' does either...
All this makes me think that my investor friend should put his money into some more properties, keep £10k left over to buy a Triumph TR6, a BMW 2002 or a Mercedes SL R107 (just to satisfy their inherent 'investment' bug) and then use the profit from the bricks to lease a modern performance car and not care what its worth at the end!
Exit note... Carrera GT's being discussed on here in early 2014 at circa £300k.... ships, birds, sailed, flown...
the sadness of Classic cars becoming an investable asset is all too much. Lets have a crash that blows these alternative portfolios out of the water please. This will reset values and bring all these splendid cars back out to the hill climbs, race circuits and daily use that they should be being used for.
When I see a show pony it leaves me cold. Show me an old Bentley that has been campaigned anyday! I would like to think I am sage like enough to know that its not a case of if but when. EG: I remember a mates father spending 80K on a series 3 E Type in 1990. I still don't think they are back there but by god would he use it in anger!
When I see a show pony it leaves me cold. Show me an old Bentley that has been campaigned anyday! I would like to think I am sage like enough to know that its not a case of if but when. EG: I remember a mates father spending 80K on a series 3 E Type in 1990. I still don't think they are back there but by god would he use it in anger!
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