Bugatti Owners Club - DVLA - Crackdown on old cars
Discussion
a8hex said:
Surely they can't retrospectively ban something. I didn't think the generally accepted principles allowed for this.
They can't - and they aren't.What they seem to be doing is trying to go back through the records to weed out the dodgy stuff that didn't conform to the rules at the time it was registered/built.
I'm going to keep calm until it becomes clearer exactly what's going on here. We all know that there's been a HECK of a lot of piss-taking around stuff that really doesn't deserve historic status, and quite a few genuinely rare historic vehicles have been butchered and bodged to "update" them, making them effectively '80s stuff but with a '50s or '60s ID. The MOT exemption just compounds it, because you start to move from merely a financial motive to the potential for unsafe vehicles to go unchecked. I seem to remember quite a bit of opposition to MOT exemption for older stuff when it was brought in, now the consequences are starting to become clearer.
Edited by TooMany2cvs on Thursday 9th July 10:17
DonkeyApple said:
Also, who has been sent these letters? What's the flag at the DVLA to trigger this?
That's what I'm waiting to see.If the first sentence in that letter is anything to go by, you would assume that this letter has been sent out to every registered owner of a vehicle with nil VED status, as that's the only criteria that they could tell.....?
Or do they have a record of vehicles that have been allocated reg numbers during past X number of years that don't have a 'continuous' VED license history....?
Or is this just going to Bugatti owners....?
TooMany2cvs said:
aeropilot said:
If the first sentence in that letter is anything to go by, you would assume that this letter has been sent out to every registered owner of a vehicle with nil VED status, as that's the only criteria that they could tell.....?
I've not had one. Yet?Interesting topic.
I applied to remove an a non-dating plate from a 1960 Morris Minor Traveller I have inherited (due to not wanting to keep the car, but I wish to retain the registration number).
As it's a pre-1963 vehicle the DVLA insisted it was inspected by a company called SGS (at the DVLA's cost) to ensure the car was as described.
The SGS inspector was only interesting in taking down the numbers (engine, chassis etc) and taking a few pictures rather, not whether it was road worthy.
Apparently it's passed, just waiting for the paperwork and new assigned registration number.
I don't think the DVLA will proactively look to test vehicles due to their bandwidth.
Worth baring in mind if you have a classic which may not meet the criteria.
It does however mean the originality and matching numbers becomes more important than ever. It'll be worth rebuilding (rather than replacing) and it's worth checking all these areas as this will be a big driver in values.
Bitsa cars will face getting a Q plate.
I applied to remove an a non-dating plate from a 1960 Morris Minor Traveller I have inherited (due to not wanting to keep the car, but I wish to retain the registration number).
As it's a pre-1963 vehicle the DVLA insisted it was inspected by a company called SGS (at the DVLA's cost) to ensure the car was as described.
The SGS inspector was only interesting in taking down the numbers (engine, chassis etc) and taking a few pictures rather, not whether it was road worthy.
Apparently it's passed, just waiting for the paperwork and new assigned registration number.
I don't think the DVLA will proactively look to test vehicles due to their bandwidth.
Worth baring in mind if you have a classic which may not meet the criteria.
It does however mean the originality and matching numbers becomes more important than ever. It'll be worth rebuilding (rather than replacing) and it's worth checking all these areas as this will be a big driver in values.
Bitsa cars will face getting a Q plate.
I had a chat with the DVLA press office today. He was very pleasant but was way out of his depth so they'll get back tome on a number of points raised, which I sent to him by email after the conversation. I asked about "grandfathering", cars built over 25 years ago and still bearing the donor car's paperwork. I asked about the Sanction 2 DB4 Zagatos, the 1990 Lister Knobblies and the latest E-types which had chassis numbers allocated in 1963 but were built yesterday. Certainly, apart from being built by Jaguar, they are in the same boat as the Pur Sang cars it would seem. Is this the end of replicas? We'll see when they reply. Of course, they might just refer me to their website statement of course and walk away. One helluva can of worms has potentially been opened.
lowdrag said:
.... Is this the end of replicas? .....
It's not the end of replicas, it's just putting the brakes on replicas pretending to be modified originals and therefore claiming historic status. It's a shame as they could just do this with modified paperwork, not by threatening to change a cars perception by awarding 'Q' plates.On the FBVHC Facebook page:
"There have been a number of communications and chatroom postings in recent days relating to an exercise whereby DVLA are contacting owners of historic vehicles requesting documentary proof of the vehicle’s age and in particular its eligibility for an age related registration.
One such communication strongly implies that this DVLA request will be sent to the owners of all historic vehicles.
As the representative body for many of the historic vehicle clubs in UK we see it as a prime responsibility to ensure that clubs and their members are not unfairly or without grounds required to engage in such an exercise.
We have today met with senior officials of the DVLA with the objective of establishing from them their view of the scope of the exercise they have commenced.
On the basis of that meeting we are clear that there is no current intention to send a letter to all historic vehicle owners.
Rest assured that the Federation will stay very close to this situation and will vigorously defend the interests of bona fide historic vehicle owners.
9 July 2015"
"There have been a number of communications and chatroom postings in recent days relating to an exercise whereby DVLA are contacting owners of historic vehicles requesting documentary proof of the vehicle’s age and in particular its eligibility for an age related registration.
One such communication strongly implies that this DVLA request will be sent to the owners of all historic vehicles.
As the representative body for many of the historic vehicle clubs in UK we see it as a prime responsibility to ensure that clubs and their members are not unfairly or without grounds required to engage in such an exercise.
We have today met with senior officials of the DVLA with the objective of establishing from them their view of the scope of the exercise they have commenced.
On the basis of that meeting we are clear that there is no current intention to send a letter to all historic vehicle owners.
Rest assured that the Federation will stay very close to this situation and will vigorously defend the interests of bona fide historic vehicle owners.
9 July 2015"
dig123 said:
On the FBVHC Facebook page:
"There have been a number of communications and chatroom postings in recent days relating to an exercise whereby DVLA are contacting owners of historic vehicles requesting documentary proof of the vehicle’s age and in particular its eligibility for an age related registration.
One such communication strongly implies that this DVLA request will be sent to the owners of all historic vehicles.
As the representative body for many of the historic vehicle clubs in UK we see it as a prime responsibility to ensure that clubs and their members are not unfairly or without grounds required to engage in such an exercise.
We have today met with senior officials of the DVLA with the objective of establishing from them their view of the scope of the exercise they have commenced.
On the basis of that meeting we are clear that there is no current intention to send a letter to all historic vehicle owners.
Rest assured that the Federation will stay very close to this situation and will vigorously defend the interests of bona fide historic vehicle owners.
9 July 2015"
Reading between the lines, DVLA are targetting the deeply, deeply suspicious. And FBHVC are fine with that."There have been a number of communications and chatroom postings in recent days relating to an exercise whereby DVLA are contacting owners of historic vehicles requesting documentary proof of the vehicle’s age and in particular its eligibility for an age related registration.
One such communication strongly implies that this DVLA request will be sent to the owners of all historic vehicles.
As the representative body for many of the historic vehicle clubs in UK we see it as a prime responsibility to ensure that clubs and their members are not unfairly or without grounds required to engage in such an exercise.
We have today met with senior officials of the DVLA with the objective of establishing from them their view of the scope of the exercise they have commenced.
On the basis of that meeting we are clear that there is no current intention to send a letter to all historic vehicle owners.
Rest assured that the Federation will stay very close to this situation and will vigorously defend the interests of bona fide historic vehicle owners.
9 July 2015"
(So'm I, fwiw.)
this is quite woreing, i know where my car has been since 1947, but i can't prove it.it has been handed down through my family ,from my granddad to my dad to me,it's not a mainstream British car so no owners club support,and as far as i know there is only one the same in the UK. it has been registered in the county i stay since it was new but i don't know the original owner, and because the dvla have computerised records neither do they. how can i prove what i have? or how can they prove what i don't have?
colin2296fs said:
this is quite woreing, i know where my car has been since 1947, but i can't prove it.it has been handed down through my family ,from my granddad to my dad to me,it's not a mainstream British car so no owners club support,and as far as i know there is only one the same in the UK. it has been registered in the county i stay since it was new but i don't know the original owner, and because the dvla have computerised records neither do they. how can i prove what i have? or how can they prove what i don't have?
This is the Packard?If it's been on DVLA's record since they centralised everything in the early '70s, they'll have the previous county record archived, and it won't be a problem at all. That's not what they're going after.
TooMany2cvs said:
colin2296fs said:
this is quite woreing, i know where my car has been since 1947, but i can't prove it.it has been handed down through my family ,from my granddad to my dad to me,it's not a mainstream British car so no owners club support,and as far as i know there is only one the same in the UK. it has been registered in the county i stay since it was new but i don't know the original owner, and because the dvla have computerised records neither do they. how can i prove what i have? or how can they prove what i don't have?
This is the Packard?If it's been on DVLA's record since they centralised everything in the early '70s, they'll have the previous county record archived, and it won't be a problem at all. That's not what they're going after.
As I understand it, it's an attempt to protect the historic status of genuinely old cars by preventing the passing off as 'historic' of newly built vehicles using no or very few original parts. For example, a finite number of Riley Imps, Brooklands and Sprite models were built in the 1930s yet these are being added to by the unscrupulous (particularly from Europe where perfectly serviceable saloons are scrapped for parts) and in some cases a competition heritage is being added in an attempt to pass them off as 'the real thing'. The same thing appears to be happening with other makes on an increasing scale; I guess the ultimate example is the recreation of six lightweight E-Types and it is possibly this that has finally caused the DVLA to take action - not before time in my view.
Provided genuine historic cars don't suffer, it can only be a good thing.
Provided genuine historic cars don't suffer, it can only be a good thing.
Riley Blue said:
As I understand it, it's an attempt to protect the historic status of genuinely old cars by preventing the passing off as 'historic' of newly built vehicles using no or very few original parts. For example, a finite number of Riley Imps, Brooklands and Sprite models were built in the 1930s yet these are being added to by the unscrupulous (particularly from Europe where perfectly serviceable saloons are scrapped for parts) and in some cases a competition heritage is being added in an attempt to pass them off as 'the real thing'. The same thing appears to be happening with other makes on an increasing scale; I guess the ultimate example is the recreation of six lightweight E-Types and it is possibly this that has finally caused the DVLA to take action - not before time in my view.
Except, the 'new' lwt E's, unlike all the other examples are being built by the original manufacturer with originally allocated, but unissued VIN's, so are therefore more 'real' than any other examples of the 'recreations' that abound....and given it's already been stated that these can't be 'issued' period reg numbers, I would say, is not the final straw for the DVLA to take action. As stated, it's an issue with Bugati's (real or otherwise in auctions) that has stirred the pot.If this is new policy from the DVLA ( to investigate ) they'll go after groups that will give them the biggest hit rate.
High value recreations and the American and Custom Car world are prime targets.
I just sold my Rat Rod I've owned for over 10 years because of the doubt, I don't want a letter to turn any car I own into scrap.
Plus I got an out of the blue offer that I couldn't turn down.
High value recreations and the American and Custom Car world are prime targets.
I just sold my Rat Rod I've owned for over 10 years because of the doubt, I don't want a letter to turn any car I own into scrap.
Plus I got an out of the blue offer that I couldn't turn down.
With recreations and the like I see absolutely no issue with them being on Q plates if this happens. I'm struggling to see why people are thinking they'll be worth scrap? There are some truly exquisite recreations out there that are every bit as special as other classics.
Obviously, when you have a high value market and zero regulation then you get fraud. This is a given. No extreme money market self regulates. The classic car market is a prime example and is riddled with fraudsters and money launderers. Everyone really knows this and frankly many buyers in a boom market will deep down know that what they are buying isn't the real thing but while prices are going up and there is no regulation then it doesn't matter.
If the regulator of a bubble market suddenly wakes up and starts enforcing its own existing laws after a long period of 'light touch regulation' (ie complicit in the sanctioning of frauds) then there are usually interesting additional consequences.
Seeing as people know a lot of the cars which are of 'complex' heritage then this will have to impact the auctions? Surely no one is going to bid on a vehicles that claims to be an iconic original when deep down everyone knows there's likely to be a letter from the DVLA and a Q plate coming?
What about the fund who bought an original Classic last quarter and has just received a letter from the DVLA and will be unable to prove the car is original? Are they not going to be instructing against the vendor?
These letters could trigger quite a few suits as people who deep down knew what they were buying will be indignant at being the one left holding the baby and run to the lawyers?
And of course, it's events like this that can cause failed sales at auction, softening of values, margin calls, forced sales and market capitulation as demand slumps and supply elevates.
Or will at risk cars just find their way to the U.S. for selling?
Obviously, when you have a high value market and zero regulation then you get fraud. This is a given. No extreme money market self regulates. The classic car market is a prime example and is riddled with fraudsters and money launderers. Everyone really knows this and frankly many buyers in a boom market will deep down know that what they are buying isn't the real thing but while prices are going up and there is no regulation then it doesn't matter.
If the regulator of a bubble market suddenly wakes up and starts enforcing its own existing laws after a long period of 'light touch regulation' (ie complicit in the sanctioning of frauds) then there are usually interesting additional consequences.
Seeing as people know a lot of the cars which are of 'complex' heritage then this will have to impact the auctions? Surely no one is going to bid on a vehicles that claims to be an iconic original when deep down everyone knows there's likely to be a letter from the DVLA and a Q plate coming?
What about the fund who bought an original Classic last quarter and has just received a letter from the DVLA and will be unable to prove the car is original? Are they not going to be instructing against the vendor?
These letters could trigger quite a few suits as people who deep down knew what they were buying will be indignant at being the one left holding the baby and run to the lawyers?
And of course, it's events like this that can cause failed sales at auction, softening of values, margin calls, forced sales and market capitulation as demand slumps and supply elevates.
Or will at risk cars just find their way to the U.S. for selling?
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