Another mystery car

[LarJammer]

Very impressed! I somehow wonder if this thread will ever be left to die or if we will continue until a resolution is found. Hopefully in a barn.

[borrani72]

We need to find something solid - if we can find registration documents, or talk to the author, then just maybe we'll get some answers. Or maybe it's still tucked in a garage or barn somewhere........

[RDMcG]

borrani72 said:

We need to find something solid - if we can find registration documents, or talk to the author, then just maybe we'll get some answers. Or maybe it's still tucked in a garage or barn somewhere........

Still, the work you have done is very impressive and advances the case.

[borrani72]

Thank you

[dandarez]

Agree about the 'impressive'. Going to the extreme almost. Trouble is tasks like this can drive you literally insane!

Re Hamlyn taken over by Octopus Books - best of luck with that, like many old publishers they invariably belong these days to a 'group' company - Octopus is now Octopus Publishing Group who own dozens of imprints (ie other book publishers).
I know a little having been a book publisher since 1987 but never got swallowed up like so many.

In fact, one newly set up book printing company nicked my 'imprint' name back in the 90s. I used to get phone calls from Heathrow usually with someone angry on the other end: 'We have 3 pallets of your books here - we know they're yours because your company name is on the labels, but you've not supplied a sodding invoice or document in sight!'
I used to just laugh and tell them I wasn't 'that' ***********. 'You'll find them on this tel number, xxxxxxxx'.
Then they'd apologise and laugh with me!.
I'd always hoped for a huge cheque to drop though my letterbox payable to ************. I think I might just have banked it too for a laugh!
I almost had one title printed by them, just so it could have said 'published by *********** and printed by *************. Last laugh was mine though when they, like many, got swallowed by a bigger than them company. I think they've disappeared altogether now.

As for chatting to the author of the book, you'll have a job! Charles Stuart Dunbar died in 1993.

I have some notes on him.
He began work as an ed assistant on a London newspaper before he becoming circulation and transport manager for an evening newspaper co between 1920-30. He joined the Birmingham & Midland Motor Omnibus Company, after which he established his own express parcels delivery company - Red Arrow Deliveries - and became the first Chairman of the National Conference of Express Carriers. During WW2 he worked at the Ministry of War Transport and then a inter allied transport org in Belgium. He was a freelance transport journalist/consultant and the first editor of 'Buses Illustrated' and published his own transport books. In 1968 he received the Crow Medal from the Chartered Institute of Transport.

However, good luck! Lots of us need to be put out of our miseries.

[threespires]

RDMcG said:

borrani72 said:

We need to find something solid - if we can find registration documents, or talk to the author, then just maybe we'll get some answers. Or maybe it's still tucked in a garage or barn somewhere........

Still, the work you have done is very impressive and advances the case.

Yes, agreed. Excellent work Borrani..

[dandarez]

EstaMcVitie said:

Can't find car, but can imagine its build would be something like this.

https://www.britishpathe.com/video/car-transformat...

Never seen that before! Great video.
It mentions 'Laurie Falcon'.
Who?
Unless my mind is muddled, and I've just had too many beers, never heard of a Laurie Falcon!

Peter Pellandine was the man behind Falcon shells, after he and friend Keith Waddington had designed and built their first car in late 1955 - the ones in the film? The two set up a small factory at Robin Hood roundabout, Loughton, Essex and started to produce shells in 1956. The first shell, later to be called the Ashley 750, was based on the short wheelbase 6`3" Austin Seven chassis.

[cahami]

Great to see more excellent work still being done to try and identify this car, my thoughts are that if you,your dad,uncle,grandad,mate had built this car you would have most definitely taken a picture of it albeit on a box brownie. Hopefully one day more photos will come to light but it seems that it was a 1 off very well built special that is no longer with us.

[Loose_Cannon]

borrani72 said:

....I wonder whether the builder could have connections with the aviation industry (especially if those doors do turn-out to be from an aircraft) – which may explain the lack of any publicity in car circles.

.....Alternatively, could the car have been posed deliberately by the photographer – it's definitely front and centre, and looks as though the image was retouched below the rear wing to make the shape of the car stand-out more.

.....Alternatively, was he somebody connected with commercial vehicle/ bus body building? Again, not moving in car circles…..

Thanks for your work and one of the best posts so far on this brain melter!

I too have wondered whether the car was as much the subject as the buses, the picture has clearly been retouched at sill height to highlight the car, and for what purpose? Did someone at the publishers just like the look of it? If the photographer liked it surely he would have just waited 3 seconds for Mavis and Doris in the foreground to bugger off for a better shot.

The rear end also looks a bit touched in and unnatural. If the gentlemen walking past hadnt been skirting around it I'd swear the car had been painted in or just shortened to fit the picture. Also why are the young chaps not paying a super sleek sportscar any attention? It must have looked like a Chiron compared to most of the post war fodder trundling around nearby.

As for gull wings, you may be onto something with lightweight aeronautical panels. I originally thought it had regular doors with cutouts in the roof GT40 style as the roof looks so flimsy. Such a strcuture with no visible hinges supporting gulls would be an impressive achievement for a major manufacturer never mind a home build.

[borrani72]

Thanks for your reply Loose_Cannon.

If the car was parked there just for a rushed photo', it could have been causing a bit of an obstruction. But it does make a great picture, and needed to have the buses in there to be in the book. Plus, having photographed cars at Goodwood Festival of Speed myself, I know how difficult it can be to get a clear shot. And just look at how many people are coming down that pavement.......

Of course, you could have had it parked near a bus garage or somewhere in the background, but it wouldn't be such a dramatic picture.......

As for the doors, if they are from an aircraft, I should imagine they would have an extruded aluminium box-section for the pillars, and a thin aluminium skin. If the lower section is, as I believe, quite shallow, it would be very lightweight - take a close look at the incredibly tiny, delicate aluminium doors on 1950s sports-racers from Ferrari, Maserati or Jaguar.........

[Loose_Cannon]

I'm going to repost this picture as I often spend ages thumbing back through these pages just to find it! I'm convinced there are so many similar details on this that it must be the inspiration (minus the fins of course), and have emailed the chap who originally posted it to find out where it appeared but he doesnt seem to visit any more.

galro said:

As I posted in another forum I think the frontal styling might have been inspired by this drawing from the 1959 book sportscar of the future.

Edited by Loose_Cannon on Monday 11th February 13:57

[Yertis]

borrani72 said:

The book from which this picture was taken, Buses, Trolleys and Trams, was reissued around 2006, so somebody still owns and actively manages the copyright to the work and to the images.

Question for dandarez, from someone involved peripherally in publishing. I'd be genuinely interested to know the mechanics of how they did that – they couldn't just dig out a packaged InDesign folder or hi-res PDF. So they either had access to the original plates (highly unlikely) scanned an original book (much more likely) or – maybe – dug out the original artwork and trannies. But I can't imagine that they did that either.

[borrani72]

Thanks dandarez for your reply.

"Trouble is tasks like this can drive you literally insane!" Don't worry, probably too late anyway


I looked for Charles Dunbar online, and couldn't find anything beyond the books and articles, so this is a step forward. In fact, I still can't, even now that you have provided his middle name. Was this from a dust-jacket or somewhere else?

I can't find it now, but some time back it was stated that there was a list of photo' credits in the book, and that the mystery car picture wasn't on it. If this is so, it would be highly likely that Mr Dunbar owned the copyright himself, and was therefore the photographer (or possibly, the image was from publisher Hamlyns library).


I did also find this, way back on page 4......

piper said:

Wow this is spooky and it is now driving me mad to. I have always loved specialist cars but I do not know this one at all, however as a car mad teenager in the early – mid 1970s I used to catch a coach from Colchester to Victoria Coach station just to go car spotting, in those days going to London was the only chance of seeing anything special, walking down the various streets and Mews off Victoria I used to spot all kinds of rare and exotic cars, I still have the lists I made all those years ago.

Anyway on the way to Victoria the coach used to go down a very wide London road, probably approx 4-5 miles from Victoria; right in the centre of this wide road were parked cars in two rows of two deep, I am 99% sure I saw this car on a number of occasions parked there. I remember this little light blue coupe which I could not identify and the distinctive GT40 style door tops that went into the roofline, I remember the frustration of not knowing what it was and it being too far to walk to from Victoria, especially as I did not know the area. Even as a teenager I knew all the specialist cars like the Ashley Sportiva etc. That car has remained in my memory all this years and seeing that picture bought it all back. I hope someone identifies it soon.

Could Mr Dunbar have been working or living there in the early 1970s? Are there any addresses associated with Buses Illustrated, Swift Publications, other publishers of transport books, Red Arrow Deliveries, Ministry of Transport etc, that may fit the bill?

[borrani72]

The Le Mans Special (page 63, bottom, this thread) is the MacMinn Le Mans Coupe......

https://www.undiscoveredclassics.com/featured-stor...






Ironically, what was finally built didn't have the same headlamp design as the mystery car.




Reverse rake headlamp nacelles were quite fashionable in America in the 1950s, and this would have been reported on by Motor, The Autocar and other motoring publications, not to mention the Observer Book of Automobiles. The combination of a low bonnet line, with the lights 'scooped-out' like this, with this feature is quite an unusual combination, but could have arisen entirely independently.

I have no idea whether the American MacMinn coupe ever appear in UK publications. It's quite possible, however, that the book could have been obtained here.

Whether influenced by the MacMinn or not, there are a great many details on the mystery car that echo other models of the era. Whoever built this, they certainly followed all the latest ideas.

[url]|https://thumbsnap.com/xEfsTjfY

[/url]

[Loose_Cannon]

Thanks for that info. Strange that our little blue coupe ended up using more traits from the stylig sketch than that red monstrosity. Strother McMinn? I have an issue of "The Automobile" in my library by chance signed by him!

Edited by Loose_Cannon on Monday 11th February 15:36

[borrani72]

Pretty cool.......

I have some old US magazines that came from the estate of Sir Jack Brabham - sadly not signed

[Loose_Cannon]

I'm probably being a bit unkind to the red car - clearly turning the intricate details of a mere drawing into a physical functional form is extremely difficult. I recognise it now as a magazine cover, but would never have related it to the sketch.

[silverfoxcc]

borrani

An wonderful effort, thanks

Being of a 'certain age' i would agree with your supposition of it being based on a pre or early post war chassis

Reason being time of photo roughly mid early to mid 60's based on the Buses in the picture, someone earlier has narrowed it down a bit

Second the Midget/sprite/spitfire were stll current models and it would take a brave man to take a current chassisless car Sprite/Midget
And build a fibre glass body, albeit a good one ( some IIRC) had 90 degree corners.

At that time there was a real 'fan base' of taking old Ford Pops/Austins, in fact any pre/post war car where the body had gone, possibly due to the MOT but having a good base and getting a sporty and somewhat different car to inpress the 'gals'.Also the after market bolt on goody market was massive, and you could get some serious HP out of some sidevalve engines. I had my old 100E anglia oomphed a bit with a GN manifold that had twin SU on it. An aquaplane Inlet over exhaust head would have been the next step.

It may be worthwhile if there was a sleuth on here that has plenty of spare time and can easily get to the British Museum Library and start going through the specialist mags of the time.You never know what might crop up

Like the X-Files

The Answer is out there,...... however time is not on our side, the ones who may know are going to be upwards of 75 now

[uk66fastback]

Yertis said:

Question for dandarez, from someone involved peripherally in publishing. I'd be genuinely interested to know the mechanics of how they did that – they couldn't just dig out a packaged InDesign folder or hi-res PDF. So they either had access to the original plates (highly unlikely) scanned an original book (much more likely) or – maybe – dug out the original artwork and trannies. But I can't imagine that they did that either.

I think they'd have scanned it in from a print of the original. I can't imagine they'd still have the col seps from all those years ago - and anyway, how would you incorporate actual bits of film with something digital? Mind you, the size of dot they printed with back then, you'd expect to see some kind of moire pattern* somewhere

*removeable in PS nowadays

[Yertis]

uk66fastback said:

Yertis said:

Question for dandarez, from someone involved peripherally in publishing. I'd be genuinely interested to know the mechanics of how they did that – they couldn't just dig out a packaged InDesign folder or hi-res PDF. So they either had access to the original plates (highly unlikely) scanned an original book (much more likely) or – maybe – dug out the original artwork and trannies. But I can't imagine that they did that either.

I think they'd have scanned it in from a print of the original. I can't imagine they'd still have the col seps from all those years ago - and anyway, how would you incorporate actual bits of film with something digital? Mind you, the size of dot they printed with back then, you'd expect to see some kind of moire pattern* somewhere

*removeable in PS nowadays

I guess so. Even if you had the seps I doubt you could find anyone with the gear or chemicals to make the plates. I was at *a big publisher of art books* in London a couple of years back discussing counterfeiting – they'd been sent some chinese copies of their books. As a punter you'd be hard pressed to tell they weren't original.

Colour separations and moire... I haven't used or even heard those terms in years now