Another mystery car
Discussion
AIRCRAFT DOORS?
Thanks for the re-worked image. There are a couple of things that stand-out to me.
AIRCRAFT DOORS?
Firstly, there are two little black fasteners on trailing-edge of the side window, They are just visible on the original image, but I hadn't noticed them until now.
Could they be little vent toggles to pop-open the rear-edge of the window, or just attachments for plastic windows?
They don't look familiar to me, are they from a car? Fixings for plastic windows from a competition car maybe?
I wonder whether they are aircraft derived? I sent an e-mail to IMPDB (Internet Movie Plane Database) some time ago, requesting help in identifying the doors. I've had no reply so far.
Anybody out there know about aircraft? Who can we ask for help?
REGISTRATION NUMBER
The clearest view of the number yet. Not the standard, approved UK font, though that wasn't uncommon back then. The last digit looks like a stylised '3', the next could be a 6, 8, B, S maybe.....
Not the full width of a standard UK plate, so probably a single letter, small space, then two digits. Would tie-in to something pre-world war two.
piper said:
AIRCRAFT DOORS?
Firstly, there are two little black fasteners on trailing-edge of the side window, They are just visible on the original image, but I hadn't noticed them until now.
Could they be little vent toggles to pop-open the rear-edge of the window, or just attachments for plastic windows?
They don't look familiar to me, are they from a car? Fixings for plastic windows from a competition car maybe?
I wonder whether they are aircraft derived? I sent an e-mail to IMPDB (Internet Movie Plane Database) some time ago, requesting help in identifying the doors. I've had no reply so far.
Anybody out there know about aircraft? Who can we ask for help?
REGISTRATION NUMBER
The clearest view of the number yet. Not the standard, approved UK font, though that wasn't uncommon back then. The last digit looks like a stylised '3', the next could be a 6, 8, B, S maybe.....
Not the full width of a standard UK plate, so probably a single letter, small space, then two digits. Would tie-in to something pre-world war two.
swisstoni said:
Having worked off Oxford St in the late 70’s and 80s, if someone held a gun to my head I would guess that the car is pulling out of Rathbone Place on to Oxford St.
The location was already figured out. unction of Vere Street and Oxford Street, near Bond St tube station. Behind the car is the Brazilian embassy. Google searches on Brazilian specials with gull wing doors were unsuccessful...!I've never thought what you see in the window is the driver in a turtle neck or fur-collared jacket (two or three button?)
I've always thought it was a reflection in the window of the buildings over the right shoulder of the photographer.
While all this conjecture is hugely entertaining, joking aside, it hasn't moved us really any further on, has it? Unless someone unearths it under an inch of barn dust and shows it o the world, we'll never know.
I'm beginning to think it just can't all add up and was written off, dismantled etc - we just don't know. There only appears to be ONE picture of it taken EVER! Leading me to think it might actually have been modified/created in two dimensions somehow from something existing - ie parts were retouched etc ...
Something, somewhere, would have been found by now, surely ...
I've always thought it was a reflection in the window of the buildings over the right shoulder of the photographer.
While all this conjecture is hugely entertaining, joking aside, it hasn't moved us really any further on, has it? Unless someone unearths it under an inch of barn dust and shows it o the world, we'll never know.
I'm beginning to think it just can't all add up and was written off, dismantled etc - we just don't know. There only appears to be ONE picture of it taken EVER! Leading me to think it might actually have been modified/created in two dimensions somehow from something existing - ie parts were retouched etc ...
Something, somewhere, would have been found by now, surely ...
borrani72 said:
Firstly, there are two little black fasteners on trailing-edge of the side window, They are just visible on the original image, but I hadn't noticed them until now.
Could they be little vent toggles to pop-open the rear-edge of the window, or just attachments for plastic windows?
They don't look familiar to me, are they from a car? Fixings for plastic windows from a competition car maybe?
I would not have thought there was enough meat in the rear frame to mount toggles (as I remember them from Anglias, minis, etc.)Could they be little vent toggles to pop-open the rear-edge of the window, or just attachments for plastic windows?
They don't look familiar to me, are they from a car? Fixings for plastic windows from a competition car maybe?
At the rate this thread is going the only possibility is that the mystery car is a result of this thread:
- It is designed fully as per the image in CAD
- It's built as a "this is how it would've been made" back in the day, down to every nut'n'bolt
- The owners/builders then somehow time travel back with the car to the location/time to try and find the original...
- There is no original but their car accidentally gets photographed and printed in the book
Thus the endless cycle of the mystery car.
You're welcome
- It is designed fully as per the image in CAD
- It's built as a "this is how it would've been made" back in the day, down to every nut'n'bolt
- The owners/builders then somehow time travel back with the car to the location/time to try and find the original...
- There is no original but their car accidentally gets photographed and printed in the book
Thus the endless cycle of the mystery car.
You're welcome
Ambleton said:
At the rate this thread is going the only possibility is that the mystery car is a result of this thread:
- It is designed fully as per the image in CAD
- It's built as a "this is how it would've been made" back in the day, down to every nut'n'bolt
- The owners/builders then somehow time travel back with the car to the location/time to try and find the original...
- There is no original but their car accidentally gets photographed and printed in the book
Thus the endless cycle of the mystery car.
You're welcome
This is the most likely explanation so far. - It is designed fully as per the image in CAD
- It's built as a "this is how it would've been made" back in the day, down to every nut'n'bolt
- The owners/builders then somehow time travel back with the car to the location/time to try and find the original...
- There is no original but their car accidentally gets photographed and printed in the book
Thus the endless cycle of the mystery car.
You're welcome
uk66fastback said:
I've never thought what you see in the window is the driver in a turtle neck or fur-collared jacket (two or three button?)
I've always thought it was a reflection in the window of the buildings over the right shoulder of the photographer.
While all this conjecture is hugely entertaining, joking aside, it hasn't moved us really any further on, has it? Unless someone unearths it under an inch of barn dust and shows it o the world, we'll never know.
I'm beginning to think it just can't all add up and was written off, dismantled etc - we just don't know. There only appears to be ONE picture of it taken EVER! Leading me to think it might actually have been modified/created in two dimensions somehow from something existing - ie parts were retouched etc ...
Something, somewhere, would have been found by now, surely ...
It's just a home-built one-off that by fluke appeared incidentally in a photograph of some buses. This photo is from about 60 years ago – sadly, but most probably the car, and everyone involved with it, are dead. Other photos were probably taken, but discarded and destroyed long before the internet, let alone this thread, existed. Maybe the guy who built it moved on to build or drive better things – ho would want to buy his homebuilt in the mid- or late '60s? It would be an odd curio even now, if not for this thread. Cramped, probably slow, with iffy handling and brakes. So it was cast aside, and scrapped or rotted into oblivion.I've always thought it was a reflection in the window of the buildings over the right shoulder of the photographer.
While all this conjecture is hugely entertaining, joking aside, it hasn't moved us really any further on, has it? Unless someone unearths it under an inch of barn dust and shows it o the world, we'll never know.
I'm beginning to think it just can't all add up and was written off, dismantled etc - we just don't know. There only appears to be ONE picture of it taken EVER! Leading me to think it might actually have been modified/created in two dimensions somehow from something existing - ie parts were retouched etc ...
Something, somewhere, would have been found by now, surely ...
Sorry for that depressing take on things but I think its the most likely kind of scenario.
It would be fantastic if it re-appeared now though.
borrani72 said:
DaveGoddard, you make an excellent point. There are quite a few clubs for Austin Sevens, and in thedugmaster's earlier link to individual car records there are so many unfamiliar terms and abbreviations ('Austin Seven' is practically a language in its' own right), that I think the best place to start would be an e-mail to The Austin 7 Special Register, and to the 750 Motor Club, inviting them to join in with us here.
I'll get on to this as soon as time allows.
This all fits with what he recalls. Does anybody have any idea which street he may be describing? This part of London is filled with tourists – somebody would have taken photo's, intentionally or otherwise, if we knew which street(s) to look at.
Vere Street today is one-way. Was this the case as far back as 1962?
I'm also wondering about the side-lights and indicators. The indicators may be hidden between the overriders, but would the side-lights be legal that close together? Would it pass an MOT if they were?
If not, then maybe this was an early, daylight, test-run before all the details were completed.
When did side-lights become a legal requirement in the UK? Could the donor car be exempt side-lights and indicators because of its' age? (Having said that, hand signals wouldn't be easy with no opening windows and gullwing doors!)
Just to clarify my original recollections of seeing the car parked in the middle of the road with other vehicles near or on the way to Victoria Coach Station. The cars were not parked end to end, All the cars were parked at right angles to the direction of the road, see pic below, the road may well have been a lot wider and possibly leading into a bigger square. I remember from sitting on the coach I could see clearly the door shuts cut into the roof and was totally confused what this tiny little light blue car was. I must have seen it on 3 or 4 separate occasions, it was always parked in the same place (where I coloured it in). Somebody must remember what part London at that time allowed that type of parking, I am convinced that the owner would have worked nearby. A friend’s father at the time had a Ashley Sportiva, the mystery car I would say was even smaller than that. I'll get on to this as soon as time allows.
piper said:
Wow this is spooky and it is now driving me mad to. I have always loved specialist cars but I do not know this one at all, however as a car mad teenager in the early – mid 1970s I used to catch a coach from Colchester to Victoria Coach station just to go car spotting, in those days going to London was the only chance of seeing anything special, walking down the various streets and Mews off Victoria I used to spot all kinds of rare and exotic cars, I still have the lists I made all those years ago.
Anyway on the way to Victoria the coach used to go down a very wide London road, probably approx 4-5 miles from Victoria; right in the centre of this wide road were parked cars in two rows of two deep, I am 99% sure I saw this car on a number of occasions parked there. I remember this little light blue coupe which I could not identify and the distinctive GT40 style door tops that went into the roofline, I remember the frustration of not knowing what it was and it being too far to walk to from Victoria, especially as I did not know the area. Even as a teenager I knew all the specialist cars like the Ashley Sportiva etc. That car has remained in my memory all this years and seeing that picture bought it all back. I hope someone identifies it soon.
To return to what piper said about seeing what he thinks was this car in the early 1970s, I took a look at the map, and the Oxford Street area seems to be a natural route to Victoria Station from the Colchester direction. According to Google Maps, the distance from Oxford Street/Vere Street is about 2.4 miles.Anyway on the way to Victoria the coach used to go down a very wide London road, probably approx 4-5 miles from Victoria; right in the centre of this wide road were parked cars in two rows of two deep, I am 99% sure I saw this car on a number of occasions parked there. I remember this little light blue coupe which I could not identify and the distinctive GT40 style door tops that went into the roofline, I remember the frustration of not knowing what it was and it being too far to walk to from Victoria, especially as I did not know the area. Even as a teenager I knew all the specialist cars like the Ashley Sportiva etc. That car has remained in my memory all this years and seeing that picture bought it all back. I hope someone identifies it soon.
This all fits with what he recalls. Does anybody have any idea which street he may be describing? This part of London is filled with tourists – somebody would have taken photo's, intentionally or otherwise, if we knew which street(s) to look at.
Vere Street today is one-way. Was this the case as far back as 1962?
I'm also wondering about the side-lights and indicators. The indicators may be hidden between the overriders, but would the side-lights be legal that close together? Would it pass an MOT if they were?
If not, then maybe this was an early, daylight, test-run before all the details were completed.
When did side-lights become a legal requirement in the UK? Could the donor car be exempt side-lights and indicators because of its' age? (Having said that, hand signals wouldn't be easy with no opening windows and gullwing doors!)
Hi Piper,
that parking layout is fairly unusual, which should help narrow things down a bit.
Here's an online version of the OS map dating from a 1952-'53 survey. Unfortunately, I don't think it includes car parking arrangements, but could help in identifying the location.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=5...
Do you remember any other landmarks? The root may have gone somewhere near Marble Arch, Wellington Arch, Buckingham Palace, or did you cross the Thames twice coming the other way - the main root this way would be across Tower Bridge and Vauxhall Bridge?
Was it a direct coach, or were there any stops?
that parking layout is fairly unusual, which should help narrow things down a bit.
Here's an online version of the OS map dating from a 1952-'53 survey. Unfortunately, I don't think it includes car parking arrangements, but could help in identifying the location.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=5...
Do you remember any other landmarks? The root may have gone somewhere near Marble Arch, Wellington Arch, Buckingham Palace, or did you cross the Thames twice coming the other way - the main root this way would be across Tower Bridge and Vauxhall Bridge?
Was it a direct coach, or were there any stops?
I don't know London, but from the map, I don't think there are many places that could have car-parking as described by Piper a couple of posts back, and be on a route from the A12 from Colchester to Victoria Station,
Waterloo Square, in 1972, and an earlier photo'.
From here, you could have passed right by Buckingham Palace on the way to Victoria Station.
Waterloo Square, in 1972, and an earlier photo'.
From here, you could have passed right by Buckingham Palace on the way to Victoria Station.
A snippet of information on Charles Dunbar, the author of the book where the photograph appeared
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sMVKDwAAQBAJ&a...
The above comes from 'Road Haulage in Britain - The First Forty Years', 2001, by Thomas Gibson.
Red Arrow Deliveries Ltd, Dunbar's company between the wars, was based in Yardley, Birmingham, UK.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=sMVKDwAAQBAJ&a...
The above comes from 'Road Haulage in Britain - The First Forty Years', 2001, by Thomas Gibson.
Red Arrow Deliveries Ltd, Dunbar's company between the wars, was based in Yardley, Birmingham, UK.
Charles Dunbar Transport Papers archive in Warwick.
https://mrc-catalogue.warwick.ac.uk/records/DUN
I've been through the catalogue and there's nothing obvious there, mainly haulage related.
Dunbar had a son called Peter, there is correspondence dating from 1948-1950, which gives a clue to his minimum age.
Dunbar's numbering system shows that there are many gaps from what he had originally. What this may have been is anybodies guess. Maybe the less interesting items, or maybe more personal papers....
No mention of his photographic archive which, just possibly, may contain more pictures of the mystery car, so that probably still belongs to a descendant somewhere.
https://mrc-catalogue.warwick.ac.uk/records/DUN
I've been through the catalogue and there's nothing obvious there, mainly haulage related.
Dunbar had a son called Peter, there is correspondence dating from 1948-1950, which gives a clue to his minimum age.
Dunbar's numbering system shows that there are many gaps from what he had originally. What this may have been is anybodies guess. Maybe the less interesting items, or maybe more personal papers....
No mention of his photographic archive which, just possibly, may contain more pictures of the mystery car, so that probably still belongs to a descendant somewhere.
borrani72 said:
No mention of his photographic archive which, just possibly, may contain more pictures of the mystery car, so that probably still belongs to a descendant somewhere.
Have we ever ascertained whether the picture was of a general London street scene or whether it was of buses (or sportscar specials) in particular?I know the picture made it into print in a book about buses, but was it shot with that in mind? I can't remember what has been said before in this thread.
If it was shot to get the buses, then they went past, the snapper had a cup of Bovril or something before some more came along and our car had turned left and had long gone, no more shots possible ...
Found this image on google linked below from 1964 - the parking layout looks correct. I've been up in this area too as a kid during the holidays.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/41094...
You've got the RAC & Institute of Directors around the corner so it could easily be someone from there who had the car. I've been fortunate to be in the latter as my dad knew the chef!
Edit: Before the IOD (corner of Waterloo Place) it was home to the United Service Club. A London Gentlemen's club founded in 1815 for the use of senior officers in the British Army and Royal Navy – those above the rank of Major or Commander – and the club was accordingly known to its members as "The Senior". The club closed in 1978.
https://www.flickr.com/photos/trainsandstuff/41094...
You've got the RAC & Institute of Directors around the corner so it could easily be someone from there who had the car. I've been fortunate to be in the latter as my dad knew the chef!
Edit: Before the IOD (corner of Waterloo Place) it was home to the United Service Club. A London Gentlemen's club founded in 1815 for the use of senior officers in the British Army and Royal Navy – those above the rank of Major or Commander – and the club was accordingly known to its members as "The Senior". The club closed in 1978.
Edited by dsmith1990 on Friday 22 February 21:05
Whether or not Mr Dunbar knew anything about the car is unknown.
The photo' credits in the book do not credit another photographer for this image, so he's almost certainly the one that took the picture.
The dark area around the underside of the rear wing has been retouched to show-off the shape of the car better in what is otherwise quite a dark, shadowy area.
If we assume that the buses were the only interest in the picture, it seems unlikely that the car would be so perfectly framed. If the mystery car was simply there by chance, then on random probability alone, it is unlikely that the image would have been cropped in just the right place. Of course, this could be pure luck, but it certainly makes you wonder.....
The pedestrians may have been unavoidable for a picture that had to contain buses to get published - there may well be another view of the car without pedestrians in the way, but no buses. If the car was posed, then this may also be the best that could be achieved before traffic built-up behind.
Mr Dunbar was involved with road haulage for most of his working life, as well as being a freelance transport author. One of his books was entitled 'Transport Oddities'. He would probably have been interested in any unusual vehicle.
Definitely lots of ifs and maybes, but Mr Dunbar is the only lead we have to follow, so I've tried to follow it.........
The photo' credits in the book do not credit another photographer for this image, so he's almost certainly the one that took the picture.
The dark area around the underside of the rear wing has been retouched to show-off the shape of the car better in what is otherwise quite a dark, shadowy area.
If we assume that the buses were the only interest in the picture, it seems unlikely that the car would be so perfectly framed. If the mystery car was simply there by chance, then on random probability alone, it is unlikely that the image would have been cropped in just the right place. Of course, this could be pure luck, but it certainly makes you wonder.....
The pedestrians may have been unavoidable for a picture that had to contain buses to get published - there may well be another view of the car without pedestrians in the way, but no buses. If the car was posed, then this may also be the best that could be achieved before traffic built-up behind.
Mr Dunbar was involved with road haulage for most of his working life, as well as being a freelance transport author. One of his books was entitled 'Transport Oddities'. He would probably have been interested in any unusual vehicle.
Definitely lots of ifs and maybes, but Mr Dunbar is the only lead we have to follow, so I've tried to follow it.........
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