Another mystery car
Discussion
borrani72 said:
Charles Dunbar Transport Papers archive in Warwick.
https://mrc-catalogue.warwick.ac.uk/records/DUN
I've been through the catalogue and there's nothing obvious there, mainly haulage related.
Dunbar had a son called Peter, there is correspondence dating from 1948-1950, which gives a clue to his minimum age.
Dunbar's numbering system shows that there are many gaps from what he had originally. What this may have been is anybodies guess. Maybe the less interesting items, or maybe more personal papers....
No mention of his photographic archive which, just possibly, may contain more pictures of the mystery car, so that probably still belongs to a descendant somewhere.
His son, Peter Stuart Dunbar died in Scarborough,Yorkshire 1982https://mrc-catalogue.warwick.ac.uk/records/DUN
I've been through the catalogue and there's nothing obvious there, mainly haulage related.
Dunbar had a son called Peter, there is correspondence dating from 1948-1950, which gives a clue to his minimum age.
Dunbar's numbering system shows that there are many gaps from what he had originally. What this may have been is anybodies guess. Maybe the less interesting items, or maybe more personal papers....
No mention of his photographic archive which, just possibly, may contain more pictures of the mystery car, so that probably still belongs to a descendant somewhere.
Yertis said:
It's just a home-built one-off that by fluke appeared incidentally in a photograph of some buses. This photo is from about 60 years ago – sadly, but most probably the car, and everyone involved with it, are dead. Other photos were probably taken, but discarded and destroyed long before the internet, let alone this thread, existed. Maybe the guy who built it moved on to build or drive better things – ho would want to buy his homebuilt in the mid- or late '60s? It would be an odd curio even now, if not for this thread. Cramped, probably slow, with iffy handling and brakes. So it was cast aside, and scrapped or rotted into oblivion.
Sorry for that depressing take on things but I think its the most likely kind of scenario.
It would be fantastic if it re-appeared now though.
I think that's unduly pessimistic. A friend and I are researching the history of someone who rallied in the period 1955-1970; we are now in contact with the ralllier's grandson who has unearthed a cache of period photos which would otherwise probably have been left in a box in an attic for another half-century.Sorry for that depressing take on things but I think its the most likely kind of scenario.
It would be fantastic if it re-appeared now though.
I totally agree, there is every chance that there are photographs, documents, even technical drawings somewhere. The car itself may still be out there somewhere.
These specials were a good option in their day, when new cars were expensive. Of course, they did fall out of favour as newer, better cars became available, and a number may have been scrapped. A lot still survived, though.
However, old photographs take-up little space and have huge psychological value to family members.
I think it far, far more likely that such photo's and documents survive than not.
There are going to be people, family members, friends, colleagues, the local petrol pump attendant, and many, many more who will remember this car, and would no doubt be delighted to be asked about it! We just haven't found them as they are not on this site.
Many will be of an older generation, so may not be using the internet (though many do). Or they may not be car enthusiasts. Or they don't search for a mystery car because, to them, it isn't a mystery. They know what it is. People who saw this car as children in the early 1970s will only be around 50-55 years of age. Plus, there is I believe, good reason to think the car was used, and parked all day, in London, one of the most populace cities on the planet, for about a decade.
This site is set-up for car-enthusiasts to talk to other car-enthusiasts. In the bigger scheme of things, we are a small group. We just haven't reached the right people yet. And even then, we have one member that saw the car in period, parked in the same place on several occasions.
These people are out there. The problem is how to reach them.......
These specials were a good option in their day, when new cars were expensive. Of course, they did fall out of favour as newer, better cars became available, and a number may have been scrapped. A lot still survived, though.
However, old photographs take-up little space and have huge psychological value to family members.
I think it far, far more likely that such photo's and documents survive than not.
There are going to be people, family members, friends, colleagues, the local petrol pump attendant, and many, many more who will remember this car, and would no doubt be delighted to be asked about it! We just haven't found them as they are not on this site.
Many will be of an older generation, so may not be using the internet (though many do). Or they may not be car enthusiasts. Or they don't search for a mystery car because, to them, it isn't a mystery. They know what it is. People who saw this car as children in the early 1970s will only be around 50-55 years of age. Plus, there is I believe, good reason to think the car was used, and parked all day, in London, one of the most populace cities on the planet, for about a decade.
This site is set-up for car-enthusiasts to talk to other car-enthusiasts. In the bigger scheme of things, we are a small group. We just haven't reached the right people yet. And even then, we have one member that saw the car in period, parked in the same place on several occasions.
These people are out there. The problem is how to reach them.......
gothatway said:
I think that's unduly pessimistic. A friend and I are researching the history of someone who rallied in the period 1955-1970; we are now in contact with the ralllier's grandson who has unearthed a cache of period photos which would otherwise probably have been left in a box in an attic for another half-century.
Tell me more! What cars & events did this person compete in?borrani72 said:
Qcarchoo said:
His son, Peter Stuart Dunbar died in Scarborough,Yorkshire 1982
Thank you for the information. That's rather sad to hear as his father lived until 1993.May I ask how you know this? Did you know him or his family?
Edited by borrani72 on Saturday 23 February 19:34
borrani72 said:
Hi Piper,
that parking layout is fairly unusual, which should help narrow things down a bit.
Here's an online version of the OS map dating from a 1952-'53 survey. Unfortunately, I don't think it includes car parking arrangements, but could help in identifying the location.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=5...
Do you remember any other landmarks? The root may have gone somewhere near Marble Arch, Wellington Arch, Buckingham Palace, or did you cross the Thames twice coming the other way - the main root this way would be across Tower Bridge and Vauxhall Bridge?
Was it a direct coach, or were there any stops?
Hi borranithat parking layout is fairly unusual, which should help narrow things down a bit.
Here's an online version of the OS map dating from a 1952-'53 survey. Unfortunately, I don't think it includes car parking arrangements, but could help in identifying the location.
https://maps.nls.uk/geo/explore/#zoom=17&lat=5...
Do you remember any other landmarks? The root may have gone somewhere near Marble Arch, Wellington Arch, Buckingham Palace, or did you cross the Thames twice coming the other way - the main root this way would be across Tower Bridge and Vauxhall Bridge?
Was it a direct coach, or were there any stops?
The coach was basically direct, we from memory stopped at Chelmsford and maybe Brentwood, 2 or 3 stops max. Looking at the pics I am 90% sure it would have been Waterloo Square, we would have crossed the Thames twice before arriving at Victoria, No M25 in those days so I assume it would have been A12 /A11, I vaguely remember we crossed Tower Bridge and then crossed the Thames again, I do remember some statues and then later seeing Big Ben before we got to Victoria. My friend and I were only schoo; kids, we both had jobs after school, so always had some money, we used to travel up to London just to car spot. My lists only mention this strange car as unknown listed under the sections 'On The Coach on the Way' section. Very frustrating.
Following Piper's early 1970s sightings of the car in what I suspect to be Waterloo Place in London, I thought I'd check whether there could be any connection with the book's publishers, Hamlyn.
I discovered that at this time they had offices at Drury House, only about a mile from Waterloo Place, and on a busy bus root.
After a few enquiries I've been in-touch, through his wife, with Nicholas Maddren, the designer of the book.
Unfortunately, although enthusiastic about what we are trying to do, all they could tell me was that so many of the pictures in the book came from photo' agencies, that they didn't bother to credit them.
It appears that the picture probably came from an organisation known as the London Transport Board, so sadly, there is no connection with either Mr Dunbar or the publishers that might lead to information about the car.
Re: WATERLOO PLACE
If the car was in an allocated space, then we may be able to discover where the driver worked.
I discovered that at this time they had offices at Drury House, only about a mile from Waterloo Place, and on a busy bus root.
After a few enquiries I've been in-touch, through his wife, with Nicholas Maddren, the designer of the book.
Unfortunately, although enthusiastic about what we are trying to do, all they could tell me was that so many of the pictures in the book came from photo' agencies, that they didn't bother to credit them.
It appears that the picture probably came from an organisation known as the London Transport Board, so sadly, there is no connection with either Mr Dunbar or the publishers that might lead to information about the car.
Re: WATERLOO PLACE
piper said:
Just to clarify my original recollections of seeing the car parked in the middle of the road with other vehicles near or on the way to Victoria Coach Station. The cars were not parked end to end, All the cars were parked at right angles to the direction of the road, see pic below, the road may well have been a lot wider and possibly leading into a bigger square. I remember from sitting on the coach I could see clearly the door shuts cut into the roof and was totally confused what this tiny little light blue car was. I must have seen it on 3 or 4 separate occasions, it was always parked in the same place (where I coloured it in). Somebody must remember what part London at that time allowed that type of parking, I am convinced that the owner would have worked nearby. A friend’s father at the time had a Ashley Sportiva, the mystery car I would say was even smaller than that.
Does anybody know Waterloo Place? Were these parking spaces allocated to any of the local members clubs, banks or businesses, or were they just public spaces that anyone could use? If the car was in an allocated space, then we may be able to discover where the driver worked.
Waterloo Place parking from around 2:13 by the YouTube counter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1eD2JIbq6k
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1eD2JIbq6k
borrani72 said:
Waterloo Place parking from around 2:13 by the YouTube counter.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1eD2JIbq6k
I viewed the video, I am convinced now that is the place. My friend and I only had very basic cameras back then, we took photos when we walking about, I definitely did not take one from the coach window as the vehicle on the photo would appear too far away. My school friend I remained in contact with until he sadly passed in 1999 from cancer. He never married and his mother wanted me to have all his photo albums of cars. They are in my loft and I will get them down and review all the 1970's pics just in case he took one from inside the coach.https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1eD2JIbq6k
I don't see how knowing who took the picture, or working out the opticals is going to get you any further anyway.
IMO data crunching is the only way forward (if the relevant data exists/existed, which I think we established earlier isn't likely). But if you could generate a report of all the blue PLG vehicles taxed in 1962 (or thereabouts) then subtract from that report all of the known marques and models, you'd be getting somewhere. You'd have a little report of blue homebuilt specials. Localise that to cars registered in the Greater London area – even smaller list. You could argue that the car might have driven in from out of town, which is fair enough, but I'd say relatively unlikely. So then you you've got a list of registration numbers with names and addresses associated with them. Then you're into the public records office to identify descendents, and you're virtually there. But since the data probably doesn't exist and even if it was GDPR prevents you from accessing it, probably none of this is going to happen.
IMO data crunching is the only way forward (if the relevant data exists/existed, which I think we established earlier isn't likely). But if you could generate a report of all the blue PLG vehicles taxed in 1962 (or thereabouts) then subtract from that report all of the known marques and models, you'd be getting somewhere. You'd have a little report of blue homebuilt specials. Localise that to cars registered in the Greater London area – even smaller list. You could argue that the car might have driven in from out of town, which is fair enough, but I'd say relatively unlikely. So then you you've got a list of registration numbers with names and addresses associated with them. Then you're into the public records office to identify descendents, and you're virtually there. But since the data probably doesn't exist and even if it was GDPR prevents you from accessing it, probably none of this is going to happen.
Yertis said:
I don't see how knowing who took the picture, or working out the opticals is going to get you any further anyway.
IMO data crunching is the only way forward (if the relevant data exists/existed, which I think we established earlier isn't likely). But if you could generate a report of all the blue PLG vehicles taxed in 1962 (or thereabouts) then subtract from that report all of the known marques and models, you'd be getting somewhere. You'd have a little report of blue homebuilt specials. Localise that to cars registered in the Greater London area – even smaller list. You could argue that the car might have driven in from out of town, which is fair enough, but I'd say relatively unlikely. So then you you've got a list of registration numbers with names and addresses associated with them. Then you're into the public records office to identify descendents, and you're virtually there. But since the data probably doesn't exist and even if it was GDPR prevents you from accessing it, probably none of this is going to happen.
Given that it's pretty likely to be the only example built, the likelihood is that is was registered as a Ford or Austin or something, so 'data crunching' as you describe wouldn't produce anything anyway.IMO data crunching is the only way forward (if the relevant data exists/existed, which I think we established earlier isn't likely). But if you could generate a report of all the blue PLG vehicles taxed in 1962 (or thereabouts) then subtract from that report all of the known marques and models, you'd be getting somewhere. You'd have a little report of blue homebuilt specials. Localise that to cars registered in the Greater London area – even smaller list. You could argue that the car might have driven in from out of town, which is fair enough, but I'd say relatively unlikely. So then you you've got a list of registration numbers with names and addresses associated with them. Then you're into the public records office to identify descendents, and you're virtually there. But since the data probably doesn't exist and even if it was GDPR prevents you from accessing it, probably none of this is going to happen.
Whilst I am hugely impresed with the knowledge, skills and relentless determination of some of the posters on here, I don't belive a 3d model (or even a physical recreation) will prompt anybody to say "Oh now I recognise it!"
In my opinon, the only thing that might move this forward is to discover the registration number. We've all speculated about how the doors open or whether there's a functioning bootlid, but knowing the answers won't tell us what the car is.
A guy on one of the Facebooks groups says it is an Ashley Harrington 'prototype' or something ... I'll have to go find what he said ...
Found it ...
I think it were made by a company like Ashley more evidence would be available ...
Interesting piece on the Ashley wikipedia page though.
"In 1961 the company moved again, this time to Bush Fair, Harlow, but the following year production of body shells ceased when the specials market waned, due to a change in Sales Tax rules. The company, however, continued to manufacture GRP hardtops and bonnets for sports cars.
SO 1962 then, the year of our photo. Perhaps indicating that this was maybe a prototype of some kind and not a one-off that was subsequently shelved due to market forces. Anyone old enough to remember what the change in sales tax was that changed the 'specials' market? Was there no purchase tax on these bodyshells or something and the Govt. introduced it. Can we blame Diane Abbott for it in any way?
Found it ...
I think it were made by a company like Ashley more evidence would be available ...
Interesting piece on the Ashley wikipedia page though.
"In 1961 the company moved again, this time to Bush Fair, Harlow, but the following year production of body shells ceased when the specials market waned, due to a change in Sales Tax rules. The company, however, continued to manufacture GRP hardtops and bonnets for sports cars.
SO 1962 then, the year of our photo. Perhaps indicating that this was maybe a prototype of some kind and not a one-off that was subsequently shelved due to market forces. Anyone old enough to remember what the change in sales tax was that changed the 'specials' market? Was there no purchase tax on these bodyshells or something and the Govt. introduced it. Can we blame Diane Abbott for it in any way?
Hi Piper,
I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. If he took a picture of the car, or noted down any useful details, I'm sure that would have pleased him immensely.
I've been looking at some of the huge number of vintage London videos available online, and there are many interesting and surprising cars - Lincoln Continental, Rometsch Lawrence, Marcos, Alpine A110 and many more. Nobody taking the slightest notice of them at the time, but fascinating now.
If you have the time, it would be terrific to see some of the pictures you both took. I think it would be well worth starting a new thread for car-spotters' old photo's.
WATERLOO PLACE
I think that your coach was heading down Pall Mall, top right to bottom left on the map.
If so, you would have seen the car on your left (as below). The parking arrangement has changed a couple of times over the years, but all the buildings seem to remain as they were in the 1960s, and probably many years further back. From your earlier sketch, I'm guessing the mystery car would have been somewhere around the position of the white estate car just above the red van in the picture?
Pall Mall is one-way (above). In this still (below), from Morecambe and Wise's 1966 film, 'That Riviera Touch', we are in Waterloo Place looking across Pall Mall. There is a "TURN LEFT One Way Only" sign visible, so the one-way system would have been in place when you were there.
This traffic system may explain the circuitous route from Westminster Bridge, doubling back via Pall Mall, and on to Victoria Station, which otherwise didn't quite add up. Any London black cab drivers here, we'd love your opinions?
Given that this is one way, did you pass this spot as you arrived in London, on the return journey, or perhaps both?
I've looked at a lot of period images, and not found any pictures with the mystery car (so far). I was wondering whether your journey was weekday or weekend, and whether you can recall roughly what time of day you saw the car?
If it was in the evening, then perhaps there is a relationship to one of the numerous members' clubs, or the nearby theatre? Weekday, office hours, perhaps one of the local banks?
Going back to the position of the shadows in the original image (see bottom p.66, this thread), I think the car is heading from Vere Street some time from mid-afternoon to early evening, and could have followed a route down Oxford Street, Oxford Circus, Regent Street, Piccadilly Circus, Haymarket, and finally Pall Mall leading to Waterloo Place.
This area of London was full of tourists with cameras, professional cameramen (there are several British Pathe reels online, and many other similar films shot around London). Many film-crews operated around this area. There must have been other car-spotters with notebooks and cameras, too.........
As nothing has shown-up so far, I think we may have more luck searching for street scenes of the general geographical area. There are more pictures to be found, and some will be on-line..........
Going back to the original image, the bright area directly above the boot handle looks to me suspiciously like a badge. An image of that could be a very big clue..........
CAR PARKING IN WATERLOO PLACE
These two images from a 1960 press release tell us that the parking attendant was being replaced by parking meters. So the spaces weren't allocated to any particular club, bank or whatever, just available on a first-come, first-served basis. Had the bays been allocated to/owned by the nearby clubs and businesses, I had been hoping this might give us the drivers exact destination.
Similar view; 1962
More from Morecambe and Wise, and a couple of other views..........
I'm very sorry to hear about your friend. If he took a picture of the car, or noted down any useful details, I'm sure that would have pleased him immensely.
I've been looking at some of the huge number of vintage London videos available online, and there are many interesting and surprising cars - Lincoln Continental, Rometsch Lawrence, Marcos, Alpine A110 and many more. Nobody taking the slightest notice of them at the time, but fascinating now.
If you have the time, it would be terrific to see some of the pictures you both took. I think it would be well worth starting a new thread for car-spotters' old photo's.
WATERLOO PLACE
I think that your coach was heading down Pall Mall, top right to bottom left on the map.
If so, you would have seen the car on your left (as below). The parking arrangement has changed a couple of times over the years, but all the buildings seem to remain as they were in the 1960s, and probably many years further back. From your earlier sketch, I'm guessing the mystery car would have been somewhere around the position of the white estate car just above the red van in the picture?
Pall Mall is one-way (above). In this still (below), from Morecambe and Wise's 1966 film, 'That Riviera Touch', we are in Waterloo Place looking across Pall Mall. There is a "TURN LEFT One Way Only" sign visible, so the one-way system would have been in place when you were there.
This traffic system may explain the circuitous route from Westminster Bridge, doubling back via Pall Mall, and on to Victoria Station, which otherwise didn't quite add up. Any London black cab drivers here, we'd love your opinions?
Given that this is one way, did you pass this spot as you arrived in London, on the return journey, or perhaps both?
I've looked at a lot of period images, and not found any pictures with the mystery car (so far). I was wondering whether your journey was weekday or weekend, and whether you can recall roughly what time of day you saw the car?
If it was in the evening, then perhaps there is a relationship to one of the numerous members' clubs, or the nearby theatre? Weekday, office hours, perhaps one of the local banks?
Going back to the position of the shadows in the original image (see bottom p.66, this thread), I think the car is heading from Vere Street some time from mid-afternoon to early evening, and could have followed a route down Oxford Street, Oxford Circus, Regent Street, Piccadilly Circus, Haymarket, and finally Pall Mall leading to Waterloo Place.
This area of London was full of tourists with cameras, professional cameramen (there are several British Pathe reels online, and many other similar films shot around London). Many film-crews operated around this area. There must have been other car-spotters with notebooks and cameras, too.........
As nothing has shown-up so far, I think we may have more luck searching for street scenes of the general geographical area. There are more pictures to be found, and some will be on-line..........
Going back to the original image, the bright area directly above the boot handle looks to me suspiciously like a badge. An image of that could be a very big clue..........
CAR PARKING IN WATERLOO PLACE
These two images from a 1960 press release tell us that the parking attendant was being replaced by parking meters. So the spaces weren't allocated to any particular club, bank or whatever, just available on a first-come, first-served basis. Had the bays been allocated to/owned by the nearby clubs and businesses, I had been hoping this might give us the drivers exact destination.
Similar view; 1962
More from Morecambe and Wise, and a couple of other views..........
uk66fastback said:
A guy on one of the Facebooks groups says it is an Ashley Harrington 'prototype' or something ... I'll have to go find what he said ...
I think it were made by a company like Ashley more evidence would be available ...
Sunbeam Harrington - visually similar...........I think it were made by a company like Ashley more evidence would be available ...
Did Ashley have a contract to manufacture these roofs, or maybe they made the original pattern? Anybody know more?
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