Another mystery car
Discussion
Alpinweiss said:
Johnnytheboy said:
Does the plate on the bonnet on the original pic look like 'RAF 33'?
Could be.
These are taken from a camera phone shot of the page in my copy of the book. I haven’t had time to do proper scans or image enhancement.
The first is there to show another plate for context.
To my eyes, the plate doesn’t read “33” but I’ll need to do proper work on it to be sure.
alfgarnett said:
The paint colour was Cambridge Blue, which was taken from his dad’s MKVIII Jaguar.
I tried to locate a "Cambridge Blue" Jaguar, with little luck. There is no "Cambridge Blue" on any period Jaguar colour charts or anywhere much else for that matter. The only place I found such a colour mentioned was this (recent) Bonhams ad...........
So I thought I'd check with someone in the know.
This from Alan Harris, Mark VII, VIII and IX Register Chairman of the Jaguar Driver's Club.............
"Cambridge Blue was never a Jaguar Mark V11, V11M, V111 or 1X colour. However I believe the correct description of the colour should have been Cotswold Blue which was a Jaguar colour.
I am aware of this car and its current whereabouts but cannot comment upon that.
All the best,
Alan"
Thanks Alan.
These two (below) are Cotswold Blue, which seems a somewhat darker colour to me. In any event, where did Mr Garnett get the incorrect colour name from? The only place that I could find the term used was in that (very recent) Bonhams ad.
Looking at the width of the bonnet stripe, and noting that the second digit back is only slightly this side of the stripe's centre, I believe that the number consists of a single letter, a narrow space, and two numerals. There doesn't seem to be space for any more...........
In this corrected image from Alpinweiss, I don't think the middle number looks like a three............
The Metropolitan rear 'screen is interesting - we'd all missed that one - but I'm not entirely convinced here, either.
Difficult to be totally certain, but the Metropolitan 'screen looks to have 'squarer' corners to me.
I've drawn-in some tangent lines to illustrate what I mean.............
Doofus said:
For a man with 'only hazy' memories of the car, he seems to be able to recall a lot of fine detail.
The charitable interpretation is that, hazy about memories, he searched Google to remind him of details and happened upon 2 pieces of incorrect data (wheelbase and colour). The cynic's take might be a little different.borrani72 said:
I tried to locate a "Cambridge Blue" Jaguar, with little luck. There is no "Cambridge Blue" on any period Jaguar colour charts or anywhere much else for that matter.
The only place I found such a colour mentioned was this (recent) Bonhams ad...........
So I thought I'd check with someone in the know.
This from Alan Harris, Mark VII, VIII and IX Register Chairman of the Jaguar Driver's Club.............
"Cambridge Blue was never a Jaguar Mark V11, V11M, V111 or 1X colour. However I believe the correct description of the colour should have been Cotswold Blue which was a Jaguar colour.
I am aware of this car and its current whereabouts but cannot comment upon that.
All the best,
Alan"
Thanks Alan.
These two (below) are Cotswold Blue, which seems a somewhat darker colour to me. In any event, where did Mr Garnett get the incorrect colour name from? The only place that I could find the term used was in that (very recent) Bonhams ad.
Looking at the width of the bonnet stripe, and noting that the second digit back is only slightly this side of the stripe's centre, I believe that the number consists of a single letter, a narrow space, and two numerals. There doesn't seem to be space for any more...........
In this corrected image from Alpinweiss, I don't think the middle number looks like a three............
The Metropolitan rear 'screen is interesting - we'd all missed that one - but I'm not entirely convinced here, either.
Difficult to be totally certain, but the Metropolitan 'screen looks to have 'squarer' corners to me.
I've drawn-in some tangent lines to illustrate what I mean.............
and this particular car isn't actually a mark VIII.....The only place I found such a colour mentioned was this (recent) Bonhams ad...........
So I thought I'd check with someone in the know.
This from Alan Harris, Mark VII, VIII and IX Register Chairman of the Jaguar Driver's Club.............
"Cambridge Blue was never a Jaguar Mark V11, V11M, V111 or 1X colour. However I believe the correct description of the colour should have been Cotswold Blue which was a Jaguar colour.
I am aware of this car and its current whereabouts but cannot comment upon that.
All the best,
Alan"
Thanks Alan.
These two (below) are Cotswold Blue, which seems a somewhat darker colour to me. In any event, where did Mr Garnett get the incorrect colour name from? The only place that I could find the term used was in that (very recent) Bonhams ad.
Looking at the width of the bonnet stripe, and noting that the second digit back is only slightly this side of the stripe's centre, I believe that the number consists of a single letter, a narrow space, and two numerals. There doesn't seem to be space for any more...........
In this corrected image from Alpinweiss, I don't think the middle number looks like a three............
The Metropolitan rear 'screen is interesting - we'd all missed that one - but I'm not entirely convinced here, either.
Difficult to be totally certain, but the Metropolitan 'screen looks to have 'squarer' corners to me.
I've drawn-in some tangent lines to illustrate what I mean.............
Hawkshaw said:
skwdenyer said:
The charitable interpretation is that, hazy about memories, he searched Google to remind him of details and happened upon 2 pieces of incorrect data (wheelbase and colour).
Would he have used Google though, given, in his own words, his lack of internet savvy?It would be useful if Alf Garnett could give us some indication as to where in the country 'Clive ' Bowers hails from. There are several Bowers working in aircraft fabrication in the 1939 census but only a few fit the bill (i.e have or went on to have sons and daughters) and they're mostly based up North.
I'd like to be wrong and apologies to him if I am, but personally, I'm dubious about Mr. Garnett's story. As others have said, some things don't add up.
Although not impossible, I find it hard to believe that a manual worker would be wafting around in a relatively new and expensive Jag VIII. It all sounds a bit too 'Darling Buds of May'.
I'd like to be wrong and apologies to him if I am, but personally, I'm dubious about Mr. Garnett's story. As others have said, some things don't add up.
Although not impossible, I find it hard to believe that a manual worker would be wafting around in a relatively new and expensive Jag VIII. It all sounds a bit too 'Darling Buds of May'.
Edited by fouronthefloor on Tuesday 22 June 15:34
Hawkshaw said:
I have some doubt whether anyone in the 1960s outside a Ford parts department would have used the term 7Y - to most folks it would just have been an old Ford Eight.
I'm not so sure. When i was a kid in the 60s Fords seemed fairly commonly know by the code like e93a or 105e. A bit like Mercedes today is a c class a w204 or W205. Either way, an interesting development.
Hmm. 105E and E93A were commonly understood, but I got my first side valve Ford in 1973 nobody had a clue what it was. It was in fact a 1937 Ford Ten 7W - closely related to the 7Y. Both were rare and only made for about 3 years. E93A was certainly the generic term for such things.
I don't think that anyone who was an aircraft builder, and capable of building a complex alloy body would have bothered with an old saloon chassis anyway. It would have been a simple matter for them to build something better, or buy a bespoke tubular frame of which many types were available.
I don't think that anyone who was an aircraft builder, and capable of building a complex alloy body would have bothered with an old saloon chassis anyway. It would have been a simple matter for them to build something better, or buy a bespoke tubular frame of which many types were available.
eldar said:
Hawkshaw said:
I have some doubt whether anyone in the 1960s outside a Ford parts department would have used the term 7Y - to most folks it would just have been an old Ford Eight.
I'm not so sure. When i was a kid in the 60s Fords seemed fairly commonly know by the code like e93a or 105e. A bit like Mercedes today is a c class a w204 or W205. Either way, an interesting development.
Somebody mentioned the census above and the surname Bowers. We have a long standing Bowers family in our town, one is very keen on 'old' stuff but more railway than car. He's on a local facebook site and a quick glance shows lots of old photos, mainly rail as said but quite a bit of old RAF stuff. I might pose a question when I get a moment.
alfgarnett said:
I have been pointed in the direction of this website by my son, so please excuse my lack of internet savvy. I don’t usually post things on the internet, but he wanted to me to see this photo as it sounded to him like a car I was trying to describe and indeed it is.
I know of this car, dating back to when it was first built and I knew the person who built it, so hopefully I can help to fill in a few gaps. Unfortunately, it was a very long time ago, so some details may be a little hazy, but I will endeavour to do my best. I haven’t read all the pages, just had a quick look through the first page and the last one, so I don’t know too much about what is known and what isn’t. I’ve just heard that it was effectively unidentified.
The car was built between 1961 and 1962. I was built very quickly I hasten to add, by a guy called Clive Bowers. He would have been 25/26 at the time and I was 19/20. He and his dad were both massively into aeroplanes and the RAF. They had both worked has aeroplane body builders, hence the ability to build this car. He was highly skilled at quite a young age as he had been in and around doing this from a child really.
The story of the car’s origin stems from their obsession with the RAF. In those days you couldn’t just buy a private registration number off the internet, so when Clive’s dad saw a virtually worthless old car for sale with the registration number RAF 33, he bought it. It was a decrepit Ford 7Y, which was subsequently parked up somewhere at the family home, which was a smallholding, hence no shortage of space and pretty much forgotten about.
Clive used to look at this vehicle with disdain and wondered why they kept it. I was a youth with a major thing about cars, but in those days I wouldn’t have known how or even if you could transfer a registration number, so I assume that it was just fixed to the car it was on back then, so Clive asked his dad if he could take the car and make something special out of it, so that was that.
The body was stripped off the chassis and scrapped. What was left of the car was subjected to a nut and bolt strip down and rebuilt, so it was like new and then Clive built the body which you can see in the photo. It was made from aluminium, it had small gullwing doors and the windscreen was the rear screen from a Nash Metropolitan. I can’t remember exactly why, but apparently there was a building at RAF Mildenhall which was full of Nash Metropolitan parts and he thought it made a good feature for the car, which he wanted to incorporate certain touches from the aerospace world.
He took me out in it on a couple of occasions, but that was only because I was a car mad youth and used to approach him about it. He wasn’t into showing it off or going to shows, rallies or anything like that. I wouldn’t say he was a reclusive type as he was quite sociable, but generally aside from that he kept himself to himself. I’m surprised that no one else appears to have recognised the car, but not surprised that only very few people might have done.
I know the engine was tuned to some degree and the suspension and brakes had been altered, but I can’t remember any details beyond that. The only other thing that stands out in memory was that there wasn’t any interior at all to speak of. The seats were home made and looked unfinished and nothing else had been trimmed out. It was very much unfinished on the inside, but on the outside it was pristine. The paint colour was Cambridge Blue, which was taken from his dad’s MKVIII Jaguar.
As for Clive, I lost touch with him around 1964 and only got back in touch with him in 1993 when having other dealings with a member of his family, which lasted until 1999. I hadn’t seen or heard any of them since then. I remember talking about the car in around 1995 and was told that it was still around and was kept in one of the outbuildings at a property their family owned somewhere just outside Bournemouth. All that was said was that it had been off the road since 1977, he had only ever done a couple of thousand miles in it, but he had swapped out the engine for a more powerful Ford engine he had built. Can’t remember what he said spec-wise, but that it was still in virtually pristine condition at that point, but had still never built any kind of interior for it.
I believe Clive passed away around 5 or 6 years ago now, but not entirely sure. He had no children, so not sure what would have happened to the car if it was still around. He had a couple of sisters who all had children, but didn’t know anything else about them really.
Hopefully that is something to go on anyway. Not sure if you will trace Clive as I believe that it wasn’t actually his real name, think it was a nickname something to do with Clive of India, but only what I was told and that was the name that everyone knew him as, even his parents called it him and his surname was definitely Bowers.
A bigger help may be the registration number of the car, which was definitely RAF 33 and would have shown up as a Ford.
Wow, this is amazing, I always thought there was an aircraft connection, all alloy body, those carefully profiled wheel arch flares always suggested alloy body construction, and the door windows are probably perspex and look like they have been taken from a general aviation aircraft like a Jodel or similiar.I know of this car, dating back to when it was first built and I knew the person who built it, so hopefully I can help to fill in a few gaps. Unfortunately, it was a very long time ago, so some details may be a little hazy, but I will endeavour to do my best. I haven’t read all the pages, just had a quick look through the first page and the last one, so I don’t know too much about what is known and what isn’t. I’ve just heard that it was effectively unidentified.
The car was built between 1961 and 1962. I was built very quickly I hasten to add, by a guy called Clive Bowers. He would have been 25/26 at the time and I was 19/20. He and his dad were both massively into aeroplanes and the RAF. They had both worked has aeroplane body builders, hence the ability to build this car. He was highly skilled at quite a young age as he had been in and around doing this from a child really.
The story of the car’s origin stems from their obsession with the RAF. In those days you couldn’t just buy a private registration number off the internet, so when Clive’s dad saw a virtually worthless old car for sale with the registration number RAF 33, he bought it. It was a decrepit Ford 7Y, which was subsequently parked up somewhere at the family home, which was a smallholding, hence no shortage of space and pretty much forgotten about.
Clive used to look at this vehicle with disdain and wondered why they kept it. I was a youth with a major thing about cars, but in those days I wouldn’t have known how or even if you could transfer a registration number, so I assume that it was just fixed to the car it was on back then, so Clive asked his dad if he could take the car and make something special out of it, so that was that.
The body was stripped off the chassis and scrapped. What was left of the car was subjected to a nut and bolt strip down and rebuilt, so it was like new and then Clive built the body which you can see in the photo. It was made from aluminium, it had small gullwing doors and the windscreen was the rear screen from a Nash Metropolitan. I can’t remember exactly why, but apparently there was a building at RAF Mildenhall which was full of Nash Metropolitan parts and he thought it made a good feature for the car, which he wanted to incorporate certain touches from the aerospace world.
He took me out in it on a couple of occasions, but that was only because I was a car mad youth and used to approach him about it. He wasn’t into showing it off or going to shows, rallies or anything like that. I wouldn’t say he was a reclusive type as he was quite sociable, but generally aside from that he kept himself to himself. I’m surprised that no one else appears to have recognised the car, but not surprised that only very few people might have done.
I know the engine was tuned to some degree and the suspension and brakes had been altered, but I can’t remember any details beyond that. The only other thing that stands out in memory was that there wasn’t any interior at all to speak of. The seats were home made and looked unfinished and nothing else had been trimmed out. It was very much unfinished on the inside, but on the outside it was pristine. The paint colour was Cambridge Blue, which was taken from his dad’s MKVIII Jaguar.
As for Clive, I lost touch with him around 1964 and only got back in touch with him in 1993 when having other dealings with a member of his family, which lasted until 1999. I hadn’t seen or heard any of them since then. I remember talking about the car in around 1995 and was told that it was still around and was kept in one of the outbuildings at a property their family owned somewhere just outside Bournemouth. All that was said was that it had been off the road since 1977, he had only ever done a couple of thousand miles in it, but he had swapped out the engine for a more powerful Ford engine he had built. Can’t remember what he said spec-wise, but that it was still in virtually pristine condition at that point, but had still never built any kind of interior for it.
I believe Clive passed away around 5 or 6 years ago now, but not entirely sure. He had no children, so not sure what would have happened to the car if it was still around. He had a couple of sisters who all had children, but didn’t know anything else about them really.
Hopefully that is something to go on anyway. Not sure if you will trace Clive as I believe that it wasn’t actually his real name, think it was a nickname something to do with Clive of India, but only what I was told and that was the name that everyone knew him as, even his parents called it him and his surname was definitely Bowers.
A bigger help may be the registration number of the car, which was definitely RAF 33 and would have shown up as a Ford.
Edited by piper on Wednesday 23 June 09:38
silverfoxcc said:
If Alf is the real deal, then why doesn't one of the the guys on PH get a bank account and we all chip in a pound or two, THEN ask the Bournemouth Echo or what ever the local rag is as well as the regional TV progs to run the pic with the story of how long this car has stumped most UK car enthusuasts for 10 years and offer a reward of the cash raised for positive proof that it exists or pics of it or known with evidence knowledge etc etc
For all we know there could be an old boy with no PC with it sitting in his garage but watches TV and could do with a couple of hundred in his back pocket
If anyone has a sort of dormant account that could be used and would put updates on a thread every time cash was put in. After all no money will be lost be anyone with electronic BACS etc..we could be so near on this.
A lot easier to use one of the "find my ancestors" websites to look for people called Bowers in the Bournemouth area, they will be on electoral registers.For all we know there could be an old boy with no PC with it sitting in his garage but watches TV and could do with a couple of hundred in his back pocket
If anyone has a sort of dormant account that could be used and would put updates on a thread every time cash was put in. After all no money will be lost be anyone with electronic BACS etc..we could be so near on this.
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