Why the obsession with originality of classics?
Discussion
e21Mark said:
I guess it depends what you want it for? If you're more concerned with bragging rights and maximising your investment potential, then maybe you'd have a point?
The other consideration, for me, is appreciating the car as its designers and manufacturer conceived it.If I want higher performance, I'll buy a modern car or build a kit car: it's cheaper, more reliable, faster and safer.
If I buy a classic, I want to appreciate it fully, in context, shortcomings and all.
Equus said:
The other consideration, for me, is appreciating the car as its designers and manufacturer conceived it.
If I want higher performance, I'll buy a modern car or build a kit car: it's cheaper, more reliable, faster and safer.
If I buy a classic, I want to appreciate it fully, in context, shortcomings and all.
For me it's the opposite. I want the style and grace of the car but I am building my XJ coupe with a vision in mind of "what could have been" if they had the technology and the ability back in 1975. If I want higher performance, I'll buy a modern car or build a kit car: it's cheaper, more reliable, faster and safer.
If I buy a classic, I want to appreciate it fully, in context, shortcomings and all.
e21Mark said:
I guess it depends what you want it for? If you're more concerned with bragging rights and maximising your investment potential, then maybe you'd have a point? If you're more keen on using it as intended, I will take a properly modified one every time. I've been fortunate enough to own 4 stock E30 M3 (and a 320is) and I wouldn't go back from my modified car. I am of a mind that homologation cars were always sold with modifications in mind anyway.
Edited by e21Mark on Wednesday 31st May 11:07
Unfortunately I have been in conversations with people when they spout - "yeah I have now added xxxx and got 5 more bhp than BWM could manage".........it leaves me cold....boorish folk!
Shezbo said:
if you had the chance to buy one of two cars and one was as Ford built it and the other was modded...would you buy the modified one?
Of course you wouldn't!!!
You would buy the standard car.....and that is reason the standard car IS worth more.
It depends. Of course you wouldn't!!!
You would buy the standard car.....and that is reason the standard car IS worth more.
If I wanted a stock car then yes, I'd pay more for the stock one, rather than buy the modified one and have to convert it back to stock. But by the same logic if I wanted ti use it daily and one had been converted to run on unleaded while the other was stock, I'd me more inclinded to the modded one. If one had a £6k of mods and upgrades that I'd look to make myself I'd certainly pay say £3k more for the modded car than the stock one. If I wanted a v8 engined Capri I'd be more likely to buy the Capri someone had fitted a v8 in to than the stock one.
Edited by //j17 on Wednesday 31st May 13:51
Equus said:
The other consideration, for me, is appreciating the car as its designers and manufacturer conceived it.
If I want higher performance, I'll buy a modern car or build a kit car: it's cheaper, more reliable, faster and safer.
If I buy a classic, I want to appreciate it fully, in context, shortcomings and all.
While I appreciate your point of view, you keep daying "buy a mofern car".If I want higher performance, I'll buy a modern car or build a kit car: it's cheaper, more reliable, faster and safer.
If I buy a classic, I want to appreciate it fully, in context, shortcomings and all.
I like the way my car drives, with unassisted steering, sub 1 tonne weight, manual gearbox and a revvy n/a engine.
Not many modern cars offer that combination.
It also has factory electric windows, mirrors aircon and cruise control, so all mod cons needed for a daily driver.
I have replaced the tired engine with a 13 year younger sibling, gearbox ditto, and swapped the 14" wheels for 15" wheels of the same width. I also fitted gas strut inserts in the knackered original wet struts.
None of those things, IMO, change the essential character of the car, or the way it drives.
To pick up on another poster, I am not boasting about the modifications, and I know it's still not a quick car by today's standards.
Equus said:
The other consideration, for me, is appreciating the car as its designers and manufacturer conceived it.
If I want higher performance, I'll buy a modern car or build a kit car: it's cheaper, more reliable, faster and safer.
If I buy a classic, I want to appreciate it fully, in context, shortcomings and all.
I see what you're saying but just how many cars do you think come to market as their designers really intended once legislation and accountants are involved? If I want higher performance, I'll buy a modern car or build a kit car: it's cheaper, more reliable, faster and safer.
If I buy a classic, I want to appreciate it fully, in context, shortcomings and all.
I don't see why a kit would be any safer than a modified car (generally) if both are properly done?
Shezbo said:
I tend to find the people that "modify" cars are the ones that do the most bragging...
Unfortunately I have been in conversations with people when they spout - "yeah I have now added xxxx and got 5 more bhp than BWM could manage".........it leaves me cold....boorish folk!
Though no more boorish than making sweeping statements like that on a car forum obviously. Unfortunately I have been in conversations with people when they spout - "yeah I have now added xxxx and got 5 more bhp than BWM could manage".........it leaves me cold....boorish folk!
Shezbo said:
I tend to find the people that "modify" cars are the ones that do the most bragging...
Hmm. I find bragging about having electronic ignition and four pot calipers is sure to lose me friends actually. They all know that really I've done it because I am getting older and don't have the reactions I used to. I could talk about my Coolcat fan and how it moves 2,000 cfi instead of the old windmill too, but this might be worse than a sleeping pill. Ah, dear me, when people start on their modifications, do you suddenly hear the call to walk away for a pint and convivial company? I do.lowdrag said:
Hmm. I find bragging about having electronic ignition and four pot calipers is sure to lose me friends actually. They all know that really I've done it because I am getting older and don't have the reactions I used to. I could talk about my Coolcat fan and how it moves 2,000 cfi instead of the old windmill too, but this might be worse than a sleeping pill. Ah, dear me, when people start on their modifications, do you suddenly hear the call to walk away for a pint and convivial company? I do.
And raise a strain.....?Doofus said:
You all think 2008 was a crash? You should have been around in the early 1990's. That was a crash!
The reference to 2008 was with regard to the financial markets crash, not a classic car market, and the point was meant to be that the market(s) isn't always 'right'. Agreed, it does dictate price at that particular time.I do recall the 1990 classic car market 'crash'. Not sure that Jaguar MK11s have yet recovered their pre-crash prices
At the end of the day, if a car was hopeless 30, 40 or 50+ years ago, it's unlikely to have improved much in the meantime. I still find it amazing how much some people are prepared to pay for something that was seen as 'awful' when it was new.
lowdrag said:
Hmm. I find bragging about having electronic ignition and four pot calipers is sure to lose me friends actually. They all know that really I've done it because I am getting older and don't have the reactions I used to. I could talk about my Coolcat fan and how it moves 2,000 cfi instead of the old windmill too, but this might be worse than a sleeping pill. Ah, dear me, when people start on their modifications, do you suddenly hear the call to walk away for a pint and convivial company? I do.
I do, could not agree more.....when people start on about mods, it is just like the old Harry Enfield character "look at my wad...loadsamoney" I do remember going to Classic Car show (10+ years ago in Stoke) and a guy had imported a LHD E-Type (from the States) and it had been fitted with a Chev (or Ford) V8. Now it was interesting looking at this (lashed) up conversion, until the guy actual said the car was now better than with the XK engine......walked away after that....I hope the poor thing was rescued from him.
RichB said:
a8hex said:
... When I first looked at selling mine I was also told to put it on radial tyres a...
You've not sold it though have you Ken? If you've still got the same email address you should have had an email.
My '87 (almost daily) Corvette.. As its a driver and not a garage queen, it has BBS wheels, aftermarket electrical relays etc, about 200lbs of dead weight removed (EVAP system, AIR, A/C, Cruise, radio+speakers spare wheel and tray etc. Jeep Cherokee crystal headlamps, custom exhaust, itg filter and a myriad of minor "performance enhancing tricks", just because I can.
Its not really a classic, just an old car, and I've no interest in its future value, its just a car I enjoy tinkering with and running. What I have achieved is a delightful driving car for touring, holidays, shows etc, in total reliability and comfort, and yes you can throw it around better now that I've added -ve camber and more +ve caster.
The paint is VW Tornado red, one of the best ever reds you can use..
Its upset a few Corvette purists in the past but who cares,
"..this is my Corvette, there are many like it, but this one is mine.."
Its not really a classic, just an old car, and I've no interest in its future value, its just a car I enjoy tinkering with and running. What I have achieved is a delightful driving car for touring, holidays, shows etc, in total reliability and comfort, and yes you can throw it around better now that I've added -ve camber and more +ve caster.
The paint is VW Tornado red, one of the best ever reds you can use..
Its upset a few Corvette purists in the past but who cares,
"..this is my Corvette, there are many like it, but this one is mine.."
Edited by steveL98 on Friday 2nd June 09:42
It's an interesting subject.
I've had a couple of run ins with Craddock over the years and his view that Land Rovers should be restored to how they left the factory, whereas my view is that Land Rovers left the factory to enter into a lifetime of modification and adaptation and that to take a Landy with 50/60 years of true life lived character and its uniqueness of that life and eradicate it in one fell swoop is utter vandalism.
Many old cars have been modified over their life by owners who adapted them for their needs and each of these changes is the true history of that car. Eradicating that living history to turn it into a clone of something that only existed for a brief moment of time before it was bought seems a folly. So long as there is at least one 'original' sitting in a museum then it should be of no concern to people what happens to all the others.
What's more interesting, a row of 100 same model cars all with their history eradicated and made to be identical to each other or a row of 100 same model cars that have lived and display their different lives for all to see.
And a car which has gone 50/60 years without ever being changed is probably a car which has never lived and has no story to tell, nothing to excite anyone about. It's really just the 'Clive from Accounts' standing at the bar trying to tell anyone who'll listen about a meaningless clerical error they found in 1978.
I've had a couple of run ins with Craddock over the years and his view that Land Rovers should be restored to how they left the factory, whereas my view is that Land Rovers left the factory to enter into a lifetime of modification and adaptation and that to take a Landy with 50/60 years of true life lived character and its uniqueness of that life and eradicate it in one fell swoop is utter vandalism.
Many old cars have been modified over their life by owners who adapted them for their needs and each of these changes is the true history of that car. Eradicating that living history to turn it into a clone of something that only existed for a brief moment of time before it was bought seems a folly. So long as there is at least one 'original' sitting in a museum then it should be of no concern to people what happens to all the others.
What's more interesting, a row of 100 same model cars all with their history eradicated and made to be identical to each other or a row of 100 same model cars that have lived and display their different lives for all to see.
And a car which has gone 50/60 years without ever being changed is probably a car which has never lived and has no story to tell, nothing to excite anyone about. It's really just the 'Clive from Accounts' standing at the bar trying to tell anyone who'll listen about a meaningless clerical error they found in 1978.
DonkeyApple said:
It's an interesting subject.
I've had a couple of run ins with Craddock over the years and his view that Land Rovers should be restored to how they left the factory, whereas my view is that Land Rovers left the factory to enter into a lifetime of modification and adaptation and that to take a Landy with 50/60 years of true life lived character and its uniqueness of that life and eradicate it in one fell swoop is utter vandalism.
Many old cars have been modified over their life by owners who adapted them for their needs and each of these changes is the true history of that car. Eradicating that living history to turn it into a clone of something that only existed for a brief moment of time before it was bought seems a folly. So long as there is at least one 'original' sitting in a museum then it should be of no concern to people what happens to all the others.
What's more interesting, a row of 100 same model cars all with their history eradicated and made to be identical to each other or a row of 100 same model cars that have lived and display their different lives for all to see.
And a car which has gone 50/60 years without ever being changed is probably a car which has never lived and has no story to tell, nothing to excite anyone about. It's really just the 'Clive from Accounts' standing at the bar trying to tell anyone who'll listen about a meaningless clerical error they found in 1978.
I've had a couple of run ins with Craddock over the years and his view that Land Rovers should be restored to how they left the factory, whereas my view is that Land Rovers left the factory to enter into a lifetime of modification and adaptation and that to take a Landy with 50/60 years of true life lived character and its uniqueness of that life and eradicate it in one fell swoop is utter vandalism.
Many old cars have been modified over their life by owners who adapted them for their needs and each of these changes is the true history of that car. Eradicating that living history to turn it into a clone of something that only existed for a brief moment of time before it was bought seems a folly. So long as there is at least one 'original' sitting in a museum then it should be of no concern to people what happens to all the others.
What's more interesting, a row of 100 same model cars all with their history eradicated and made to be identical to each other or a row of 100 same model cars that have lived and display their different lives for all to see.
And a car which has gone 50/60 years without ever being changed is probably a car which has never lived and has no story to tell, nothing to excite anyone about. It's really just the 'Clive from Accounts' standing at the bar trying to tell anyone who'll listen about a meaningless clerical error they found in 1978.
Very well written.
Riley Blue said:
DonkeyApple said:
It's an interesting subject.
I've had a couple of run ins with Craddock over the years and his view that Land Rovers should be restored to how they left the factory, whereas my view is that Land Rovers left the factory to enter into a lifetime of modification and adaptation and that to take a Landy with 50/60 years of true life lived character and its uniqueness of that life and eradicate it in one fell swoop is utter vandalism.
Many old cars have been modified over their life by owners who adapted them for their needs and each of these changes is the true history of that car. Eradicating that living history to turn it into a clone of something that only existed for a brief moment of time before it was bought seems a folly. So long as there is at least one 'original' sitting in a museum then it should be of no concern to people what happens to all the others.
What's more interesting, a row of 100 same model cars all with their history eradicated and made to be identical to each other or a row of 100 same model cars that have lived and display their different lives for all to see.
And a car which has gone 50/60 years without ever being changed is probably a car which has never lived and has no story to tell, nothing to excite anyone about. It's really just the 'Clive from Accounts' standing at the bar trying to tell anyone who'll listen about a meaningless clerical error they found in 1978.
I've had a couple of run ins with Craddock over the years and his view that Land Rovers should be restored to how they left the factory, whereas my view is that Land Rovers left the factory to enter into a lifetime of modification and adaptation and that to take a Landy with 50/60 years of true life lived character and its uniqueness of that life and eradicate it in one fell swoop is utter vandalism.
Many old cars have been modified over their life by owners who adapted them for their needs and each of these changes is the true history of that car. Eradicating that living history to turn it into a clone of something that only existed for a brief moment of time before it was bought seems a folly. So long as there is at least one 'original' sitting in a museum then it should be of no concern to people what happens to all the others.
What's more interesting, a row of 100 same model cars all with their history eradicated and made to be identical to each other or a row of 100 same model cars that have lived and display their different lives for all to see.
And a car which has gone 50/60 years without ever being changed is probably a car which has never lived and has no story to tell, nothing to excite anyone about. It's really just the 'Clive from Accounts' standing at the bar trying to tell anyone who'll listen about a meaningless clerical error they found in 1978.
Very well written.
It is your (and PO's) car and part of your life story.
Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff