Why the obsession with originality of classics?
Discussion
Equus said:
CharlesdeGaulle said:
So how do you equate that with the regulation-wielding Stasi on your 'listed' scheme that you were advocating earlier then?
Your 'regulation wielding Stasi', not mine. I work with Conservation Officers on a regular basis. 
d, my sincere commiserations.GOG440 said:
Or how about this?
Owned for a very long time by a (sadly deceased) friend of mine, He fitted the wide arches to it over 40years ago so he could get wider tyres under it for hillclimbing, and then sold a lot of sets of them to other competitors. It was already modified by BRM when it was new
Here is another picture of it with Barrie Williams (it must have been taken before he broke it)
Here's another example of modified wheel arches. But the real quality is the reworking of the interior, especially the door cards. Owned for a very long time by a (sadly deceased) friend of mine, He fitted the wide arches to it over 40years ago so he could get wider tyres under it for hillclimbing, and then sold a lot of sets of them to other competitors. It was already modified by BRM when it was new
Here is another picture of it with Barrie Williams (it must have been taken before he broke it)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/302356844486
Riley Blue said:
You poor bd, my sincere commiserations.
The trick, with both Conservation Officers and Planners, is to stop treating them like 'regulation wielding Stasi' and start treating them like human beings trying to do a difficult job of balancing conflicting constraints and objectives within a complex set of rules.d, my sincere commiserations.When you work with them, rather than against them (even when you're working against them), you'd be surprised how easy it all becomes.
Equus said:
Nobody, least of all me, is suggesting that cars shouldn't be modified for racing when they are still on 'active service' so to speak (to revisit the analogy drawn with Tornado fighters earlier in the thread).
Well that's exactly the point I was making. My TR6 still is on 'active service'. Admittedly not in competition for a while. If the weather's crap and I've a dull journey to make I'll take the modern. But if the weather is OK and it's nice looking trip I'll take the TR. Often use it for commuting.I also respect the point you were making about our being 'custodians' of the cars. To this end I've kept as many of the original bits in boxes (like the heater unit that doesn't blow air) so that if/when the car moves on, the next owner can reinstal parts that were never much good and enjoy '60s mediocrity.
a8hex said:
Equus said:
The trick,... start treating them like human beings ...
When you work with them, rather than against them (even when you're working against them), you'd be surprised how easy it all becomes.
Works in nearly all walks of lifeWhen you work with them, rather than against them (even when you're working against them), you'd be surprised how easy it all becomes.
however that's for another topic
.RichB said:
GoodOlBoy said:
lowdrag said:
In pointing out that we all have different opinions and that none of us are right. I have a mildly modified E-type for modern use and a replica XKSS. Strangely, the replica is worth more than the original. That doesn't bother me, but I have judged concours and there we get serious. The "restomod" movement, coming from America is growing apace, with people of means having an old car modified to drive today, with aircon, power steering ABS, bluetooth, 1,000 watt amps and whatever else they want to throw their money at. One can go through all shades of grey between white and black. No one is wrong, and no one is right. You pays your money and takes your choice.
+1Where a car is not a unique survivor of historical significance, I agree with Lowdrag that you pay your money and take your choice. My personal take on this (which I don't seek to impose on anyone else) is that I'm very happy to modify cars to make them better to drive in modern conditions and have frequently done so over the years. But I restrict myself to things which are reversible, and keep the original bits so that the car can go back to standard if it becomes desirable for a subsequent owner. That seems to me to be doing the right thing for the car.
I like the idea an execution of a lot of resto-mods. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else their choice was wrong but if it were my money there are combinations I would be happy with and combos that I would not enjoy, things that seem out of character. I would feel wrong putting a Ford engine into a GM car or vice versa. Putting a 6.2 AMG engine into an old Merc would not offend me but putting in a BMW engine would feel wrong. I would not feel bad about putting a hotted up Zetec into an Elan Plus 2 because the original engine was basically a hotted up Ford anyway, but putting in a red top Vauxhall would feel wrong, as would dropping a Ford V6 into an Opel Manta . Similarly putting any sort of Ford V6 or V8 into an old TVR seems ok, but putting a small block Chevy in would feel wrong.
If someone else enjoys a well executed Mustang with a Corvette engine in it, though, and can afford to do it to a good standard, I wish them every pleasure.
I like the idea an execution of a lot of resto-mods. I wouldn't dream of telling anyone else their choice was wrong but if it were my money there are combinations I would be happy with and combos that I would not enjoy, things that seem out of character. I would feel wrong putting a Ford engine into a GM car or vice versa. Putting a 6.2 AMG engine into an old Merc would not offend me but putting in a BMW engine would feel wrong. I would not feel bad about putting a hotted up Zetec into an Elan Plus 2 because the original engine was basically a hotted up Ford anyway, but putting in a red top Vauxhall would feel wrong, as would dropping a Ford V6 into an Opel Manta . Similarly putting any sort of Ford V6 or V8 into an old TVR seems ok, but putting a small block Chevy in would feel wrong.
If someone else enjoys a well executed Mustang with a Corvette engine in it, though, and can afford to do it to a good standard, I wish them every pleasure.
I cannot see a need for official heritage preservation rules because unlike old buildings the market value generally protects the higher end cars from being messed with too much. Were as buildings generally have a lower value than the land they sit on.
Personally I spent far too long as a youth reading CCC to worry about modifications. Actually we have a proud history of modding motor cars in Blighty so I would hate to see it properly legislated against.
Personally I spent far too long as a youth reading CCC to worry about modifications. Actually we have a proud history of modding motor cars in Blighty so I would hate to see it properly legislated against.
DonkeyApple said:
It clearly doesn't matter what others value it at.
Sure, you get some spoons who think spending £20k on mods means their car is worth £20k+ more but the majority know the end value isn't what's important but the end product being what they want.
I kinda fell into this modiifed trap with my fastback. When I built it I had to have the expensive coilovers, the R&P steering, the T5 gearbox, the stroker engine - why - because I'd never had them on any old classic before and I thought I'd have the best of both worlds, the shape and look of an old classic but the driveability and smoothness of a modern car. What a load of bSure, you get some spoons who think spending £20k on mods means their car is worth £20k+ more but the majority know the end value isn't what's important but the end product being what they want.
ks that was.Sure I ended up with a great looking car and on a good day it was enjoyable but the endless drone of the exhaust, the rock hard suspension, the £5k paint I was afraid to get marked, the whole experience left a lot to be desired. Maybe a fair proportion of that was me not having either the time to properly sort the car out and certainly not the experience to keep correcting stuff to gain improvements in the everyday ownership and running of it ...
I'd set out to have a mild 289 I could take anywhere and ended up with a 12mpg drag-carbed ornament.
Anyway - I've gone full circle now - sure, I'm not in the line up the bolt heads brigade but I am very much in the originality camp - not because of any kind of extra value, or anything, but because I want to drive my car as it was in the 70s, with all the 'faults' that cars had then, that's all. I just like owning it though ... whether I drive it or not.
To win a bet I put the E-type in fourth, slipped the clutch to 12 mph and drove it up to a ton with no vibration. I've done it many a time just to prove how good an old Jaguar can be. But the XKSS, triple Webers, road/race engine - not a prayer! The E-type is a drive-anywhere-in-top-gear kind of car, relaxing yet powerful and silky smooth. That's what I want from it, not a race engine, and especially not a big bore exhaust. So tiring on a long journey.
I'm not a fan of wires either. The only place for wire wheels is a bicycle.
I don't know why so many people who fit coilovers just run whatever random springs rates they're supplied with? Their adjustability is what makes them so popular yet people don't seem to realise that the springs can be cheaply and easily changed for more suitable spring rates. Instead, they're more often used to lower a car further than is of any benefit to the cars handling.
I don't know why so many people who fit coilovers just run whatever random springs rates they're supplied with? Their adjustability is what makes them so popular yet people don't seem to realise that the springs can be cheaply and easily changed for more suitable spring rates. Instead, they're more often used to lower a car further than is of any benefit to the cars handling.
e21Mark said:
I'm not a fan of wires either. The only place for wire wheels is a bicycle.
Spats and steel wheels look OK on an XK120 but don't suit the XK150 IMHO.Wire would have been standard on a 150, but at least 1 left the factory with steel wheels, so I guess either can to some extent be viewed as being original.
a8hex said:
e21Mark said:
I'm not a fan of wires either. The only place for wire wheels is a bicycle.
Spats and steel wheels look OK on an XK120 but don't suit the XK150 IMHO.Wire would have been standard on a 150, but at least 1 left the factory with steel wheels, so I guess either can to some extent be viewed as being original.
AW111 said:
The very first thing I did with the MR2 was remove the horrible drony exhaust.
I put up with it for less than a month.
My other pet hate is inappropriate wire wheels. I like a nice set of period steel wheels.
What about wires that were an option "in period"?I put up with it for less than a month.
My other pet hate is inappropriate wire wheels. I like a nice set of period steel wheels.
(Lately I've been thinking about putting a set of 6" centre-laced on the TR6, just for a change.
)(My wife has already put the kybosh on this idea.)
RichB said:
nteresting subject this one. The MG TD was produced with steel wheels because MG thought wires were old-hat and correctly that the steel wheel was stronger.
The XK120 was originally supplied with steel wheels and spats. For Le Mans they fitted wire wheels as these gave better brake cooling. I'm suffering from brain fade, this might have been with the C-Type. Anyway this led to customer demand for wire wheels on the road going 120s and the need for spinners meant that spats couldn't be fitted.
.Yertis said:
What about wires that were an option "in period"?
(Lately I've been thinking about putting a set of 6" centre-laced on the TR6, just for a change. )
(My wife has already put the kybosh on this idea.)
As always it's down to personal taste.(Lately I've been thinking about putting a set of 6" centre-laced on the TR6, just for a change.
)(My wife has already put the kybosh on this idea.)
I like wires on all TR's from 2 to 5 but not on the TR6.
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