Why the obsession with originality of classics?

[Hugh Jarse]

This is my favourite youtube video of all time, a guy with a lilting voice talking about originality.
My 3 classics are all subtly modded / being modded, part of the fun for me.
But Im glad there are survivor cars and concours cars.
Its an interesting topic and everyone has their own stopping off point.
For exmple I would never put a five speed datsun in the frogeye but will change the diff from 4.2 to 3.75 when i get around to it.
All my mods are in keeping with the period so i think they are fair enough.
the vid
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8EVaHGDiDVQ
Conversely, here is a modified frogeye that i think is brilliant:
http://www.dep-o.co.uk/features/frontline-austin-h...

Edited by Hugh Jarse on Sunday 28th May 21:27

[zygalski]

Equus said:

gothatway said:

zygalski said:

For me originality is a secondary concern to safety.

Agreed.

Then, to put it bluntly, you should both forget about classics and drive modern cars.

Mine's a daily driver.

[Equus]

zygalski said:

Mine's a daily driver.

Yes, and I'm conscious that it's only a 'classic' by the loosest possible definition.

Neither point is relevant, however. If you're genuinely concerned about safety, buy a newer car: yours is a deathtrap by comparison with any current, Euro NCAP certified, airbagged DSC's and ABS braked model.

[zygalski]

Equus said:

zygalski said:

Mine's a daily driver.

Yes, and I'm conscious that it's only a 'classic' by the loosest possible definition.

Neither point is relevant, however. If you're genuinely concerned about safety, buy a newer car: yours is a deathtrap by comparison with any current, Euro NCAP certified, airbagged DSC's and ABS braked model.

It has ABS, in the loosest possible definition, Mr smartarse.

[zygalski]

It would seem so!

[swisstoni]

If some enthusiasts want to noodle over intricate original details of cars, so what?
If others want to mod the hell out of them, so what too?

[Equus]

zygalski said:

It has ABS, in the loosest possible definition, Mr smartarse.

And the airbags, FEA-designed crumplezones, DSC, NCAP testing and approval, etc.?

Loosest possible definition is right, though ... it's a stty, 1980's/'90's Vauxhall implementation of it. To find a sttier implementation of anti-lock brakes, you'd have to look for a Jensen FF fitted with the Dunlop-Maxaret system (which, stty or not, should be preserved in its original form at all costs, 'cos it is a feature of the car that is of genuine importance).


But you're deliberately missing the point: modifications justified by 'safety' concerns on an inherently unsafe (by modern standards) 'classic' are a spurious argument.

If you are genuinely concerned about safety, buy a safer car (a new one). Don't use it as an excuse to fk up a vehicle of historic value.

Of course, if it's just an old Vauxhall, feel free to fk it up as much as you like: I don't suppose there will be too many people who would worry, at least for a few decades to come.

[Equus]

swisstoni said:

If some enthusiasts want to noodle over intricate original details of cars, so what?
If others want to mod the hell out of them, so what too?

It depends whether the car has any real historic value (ie. whether, in fact, it is a genuine classic)?

If it's just an old car, of no historic or technical importance - or at least a commonplace one with lots of examples still around - then mod away.

If it's of significant historic value, then I think there is some justification for treating it as you would a historic building, and viewing its owner as merely a temporary custodian with at least some responsibility to future generations.

[Doofus]

Equus said:

If it's just an old car, of no historic or technical importance - or at least a commonplace one with lots of examples still around - then mod away.

At what point do you decide that a sufficient number have been 'modded' that the remaining few are now of historic or technical importance?

Who is the arbiter of what is 'important'?

[Equus]

Doofus said:

At what point do you decide that a sufficient number have been 'modded' that the remaining few are now of historic or technical importance?

Who is the arbiter of what is 'important'?

That's partly the problem, isn't it?

With historic buildings, there is the system of Listings, administered by experts and controlled by legislation. With cars (or other artifacts of design/engineering/manufacturing), there is no such legislative protection, so we have to rely on the good taste of owners and market forces.

...Which kind of brings us back to the point of this thread:

The market is the arbiter of what's important, and is why genuine classics are considerably more valuable if they are to original specification and un-fked-about-with.

[tapkaJohnD]

I've seen stamp collectors searching for an example of each imprint of a stamp from the hundred or more on the original printing plate, each subtly and almost invisibly different from the others. It's a largely male thing, slightly obsessive, and also down to the power that such minute knowledge confers.

Me, who cares? As long as it works, and preferably works better.

JOhn

[Equus]

tapkaJohnD said:

As long as it works, and preferably works better.

Again, if that's you're only criteria, you're better off with a '17 reg Kia Picanto.

[mickyveloce]

Again, no rights or wrongs. There is usually a collection of tat-festooned nightmare horror-cars at most summer classic car gatherings, "improved" by owners in one way or another which turn my stomach and cause me to tut.
However, that is entirely my problem. As is the fact that some people wear fleeces with wolves howling at the moon.
I wish them long and happy lives.

I get pleasure from seeing original cars, and don't mind admitting it. It maximises the nostalgia for me, and makes me feel at one with the owner.

However, I use my cars to ferry around my three boys (13,10,5) who, on most days are more precious to me than jewels.
Accordingly, my r129 (especially selected as being the earliest and most original example I could find) now has three point rear harnesses. My C36 AMG has upgraded Brembos and the latest and best Continental tyres, so I don't always practice what I preach.

But at least I'm happy, I put the safety of my kids first, and I don't wear a crappy fleece.

[Riley Blue]

Equus said:

gothatway said:

zygalski said:

For me originality is a secondary concern to safety.

Agreed.

Then, to put it bluntly, you should both forget about classics and drive modern cars.

To put it equally bluntly: if it's my car, I'll do what I like with it.

I modify all my cars (modern or classic), when necessary, to satisfy my requirements for safety, performance, reliability and comfort. That doesn't mean every single one is modified; often the modern ones aren't but of the classics, every single one is 'tweaked' to some degree, even if it's just a change to radial tyres and halogen bulbs though usually it's more than that for the four reasons given.

So please don't tell me I shouldn't do what I want to with my cars, there's a good chap...

[Equus]

Riley Blue said:

To put it equally bluntly: if it's my car, I'll do what I like with it.

So please don't tell me I shouldn't do what I want to with my cars, there's a good chap...

It's your house, too (assuming that you own one), yet if it is of historic importance the Government will tell you what you can and can't do with it, and everyone seems to accept that?

But nobody is telling you what you should and shouldn't do with your cars, old boy. I'm merely explaining - in response to the OP - why 'original' cars are valued much higher on the open market.

If you want to fk up the originality of your car, and ruin its value in the process, then fill ya boots.

As I've said, it's the market that decides whether you're a fkwit, not me.

[GoodOlBoy]

Equus said:

Again, if that's you're only criteria, you're better off with a '17 reg Kia Picanto.

You seem to be totally missing the point.

No one expects their classic to be as safe as a modern car, they're just improving the safety or usability of the classic car within what's achievable.

I don't see a problem with upgrading lights, brakes, tyres, wipers or whatever else to make a classic more suited for modern driving conditions.

Most modifications and upgrades are easily reversible. If originality concerns you, or anyone else, then keep the original parts and refit them before sale

[Equus]

GoodOlBoy said:

I don't see a problem with upgrading lights, brakes, tyres, wipers or whatever else to make a classic more suited for modern driving conditions

Easily reversible and unobtrusive modifications, I would tend to agree with you... though as I have said, if you place a high degree of importance on reliability, safety or driveability, then you need to seriously question why you want a classic in the first place.

Beyond that, the market has decided that degrading originality devalues the car. The reason for that is straightforward: these cars are valued mainly for their historic importance (in cold, pragmatic terms they're nowhere near as good as modern cars in most other respects, and their aesthetics are only valuable to the amount it would cost to cobble together a plastic replica).

The less original they are, the more that importance is eroded: it really is as simple as that.

[a8hex]

Equus said:

Loosest possible definition is right, though ... it's a stty, 1980's/'90's Vauxhall implementation of it. To find a sttier implementation of anti-lock brakes, you'd have to look for a Jensen FF fitted with the Dunlop-Maxaret system (which, stty or not, should be preserved in its original form at all costs, 'cos it is a feature of the car that is of genuine importance).

I think you've missed the joke of a system that Ford fitted to Onions and Escorts in the late 80, a mechanical ABS with a habit of failing open circuit. When I first knew LadyB8 she suffered from a 1.6i Onion Ghia, in that if you pressed the brake peddle hard enough to cause the ABS to kick in the brakes just cut out.

[Equus]

Strela said:

Lynx Eventers, Vicarage Mk.II Jags ...

The Eventer was a period conversion, in any case, so not the same thing at all, and a good standard MK.II 3.8S is worth as much as a Vicarage converted car, on the second-hand market... which considering the cost of undertaking the Vicarage conversion rather proves my point, anyway.

[Equus]

Strela said:

Aston Martin Lagonda Shooting Brake by Roos Engineering...Is that further proof of the rule?

Given that the standard Lagonda is about as desirable as syphilis, yes.