Why the obsession with originality of classics?
Discussion
Equus said:
......The market is the arbiter of what's important,.....
That is true!Equus said:
.....and is why genuine classics are considerably more valuable if they are to original specification and un-f
ked-about-with.
But that is not always true!ked-about-with.A Ferrari 250 GTE is a recognised genuine classic car.
It's also a car of which many examples have been re-bodied and modified to make fake/re-creation 250 GTO's.
Like them or not, the market value of the fake/re-creation 250 GTO car is far higher than the value of an original specification 250 GTE.
At a more affordable level, a MK1 Escort is recognised as a classic car today.
A lot of the two door 1.1/1.3 base model Escorts have been modified into various RS/Mexico/rally replicas, and the market value of the replica cars is higher than the value of an original specification car.
In general, you are correct, the value of a totally original classic car is more than the value of a modified car, but that's not always the case as you imply!
4rephill said:
But that is not always true!
A Ferrari 250 GTE is a recognised genuine classic car.
...At a more affordable level, a MK1 Escort is recognised as a classic car today.
Yes, I'll give you the 250 GTE - 250GTO conversion, but again that's something of an anomaly driven by the absolutely astronomical cost of a genuine GTO. There are are other examples where a (relatively) common and historically unimportant base car can be easily converted into an accurate replica of a much rarer and more desirable model (Austin Seven Ulster replicas, for instance), but they remain the exceptions to the general rule.A Ferrari 250 GTE is a recognised genuine classic car.
...At a more affordable level, a MK1 Escort is recognised as a classic car today.
The 2-door Escort situation is driven by historic racing/rallying where, yes, strange things happen driven by the availability of suitable competitive machinery.
We're talking (in general) about 'modernising' standard cars to non-standard specifications, not converting them into accurate replicas of more desirable period models?
But I don't care what the market thinks my car is worth.
It may not be a 50's Aston, but it's a 30 year old lightweight mid-engined coupe.
There is nothing intrinsically special about this particular car, so it has no historical significance, but
I like the looks.
I like the way it drives.
I like the fact it proves Toyota could make a sports car when they tried.
I drive it daily, so upgrading the lights and tyres is a sensible choice for me.
The drivetrain upgrade was for fun - it's a later generation of the original engine, and bolts straight in. As the car was a bit of a hybrid model wise when I bought it, why not?
Any purist can return it to as original as it was when I got it, but I binned the lowered springs and fart-cannon exhaust. Sorry
It may not be a 50's Aston, but it's a 30 year old lightweight mid-engined coupe.
There is nothing intrinsically special about this particular car, so it has no historical significance, but
I like the looks.
I like the way it drives.
I like the fact it proves Toyota could make a sports car when they tried.
I drive it daily, so upgrading the lights and tyres is a sensible choice for me.
The drivetrain upgrade was for fun - it's a later generation of the original engine, and bolts straight in. As the car was a bit of a hybrid model wise when I bought it, why not?
Any purist can return it to as original as it was when I got it, but I binned the lowered springs and fart-cannon exhaust. Sorry
My TR3a is a completely standard car and 40 time concours winner up to last year! - Unlike many concours cars, it is driven to all events throughout Europe and despite having covered 28,000 miles since restoration, is still winning major events.
For me, it is important to keep the car 'original' and retain the 'feel' as was intended in 1959, but also to use the car regularly, including nipping to the shops from time to time.
I bought it because I wanted a 1959 Triumph TR3a...........NOT a 1959 Triumph TR3a with a host of changes that make it drive like something else!
When it comes to value, I know that I have a sound investment, as totally original cars, will also always carry a premium.
My R129 Mercedes is also completely standard and will remain that way.
On the other hand, I used to fit V6 engines into my Ford Anglia's and my Caterham has been heavily modified in most areas and gives me great fun in other ways.
Quite simply, it is your car and your money and you can do what you want with it.
However, if you are about to spend in excess of £100,000 on restoring an E-Type, I would personally want to keep it original.
For me, it is important to keep the car 'original' and retain the 'feel' as was intended in 1959, but also to use the car regularly, including nipping to the shops from time to time.
I bought it because I wanted a 1959 Triumph TR3a...........NOT a 1959 Triumph TR3a with a host of changes that make it drive like something else!
When it comes to value, I know that I have a sound investment, as totally original cars, will also always carry a premium.
My R129 Mercedes is also completely standard and will remain that way.
On the other hand, I used to fit V6 engines into my Ford Anglia's and my Caterham has been heavily modified in most areas and gives me great fun in other ways.
Quite simply, it is your car and your money and you can do what you want with it.
However, if you are about to spend in excess of £100,000 on restoring an E-Type, I would personally want to keep it original.
Shezbo said:
Very rarely does a person's "personal" mod's add an value to a classic car......
Quite so. And most often it will significantly detract from the value.Apart from anything else, any prospective buyer would have to be a grade A, First Class idiot to admit that the modifications actually suited them perfectly.
"Well, it's not too bad, I don't suppose, but I couldn't possibly live with those wheels and the roll cage, so it'll cost me £XYZ to bring it back to standard spec."
Even 'reliability' mods can work against you:
"Well, the standard car doesn't overheat when everything is in good condition" (invariably true - very few manufacturers built cars that overheated when new, in standard form) "so I'll have to get to the root cause of the problem that made the high-capacity radiator necessary... no good just masking the real issue, is it?"
Whereas anyone wanting to make modifications, you can quite reasonably say: "that's your decision, and your cost - the car is offered in perfect standard spec, what you do with it is up to you".
Equus said:
The market doesn't care that you don't care.
Why the obsession with the market 
It of course knows the price of everything but the value of nothing.Furthermore unless we are talking about significant structural modifications such as cutting the chassis, then most modifications are easily reversible, often not taking much time nor money. Quite often significant amounts can be recouped by selling the aftermarket parts.
I think there is certainly a place for both unmodified and modified classics, and it would be a far more boring pursuit if the later did not exist.
Stepping around the internecine warfare, I see very few cars that are truly original. I mean, I am informed that the only place I can find 1961 air to pump up my tyres is down in the Northern Line tube stations. Original tyres? Are they still made? Mild steel exhausts anyone? Asbestos brake pads? Five star fuel? Has your cylinder head been modified to cope with unleaded fuel? How people can get so heated about a hobby escapes me.
Reminds me of the Revival in 2009 when they had an all Mini race; In the morning of the race all cars were called to scrutineering with the cylinder head off. That caused a few engine changes I can tell you.
Reminds me of the Revival in 2009 when they had an all Mini race; In the morning of the race all cars were called to scrutineering with the cylinder head off. That caused a few engine changes I can tell you.
lowdrag said:
How people can get so heated about a hobby escapes me.
I'm with you on that.One of the reasons I like hot rods so much is, in theory, that aspect of the hobby by its very nature should be free of that aspect of the hobby.
But, alas, you can even find those anal enough that moan and b
h that someone is using modern repro parts of period repro parts, so its not original. I kid you not.... 
Shezbo said:
Very rarely does a person's "personal" mod's add an value to a classic car......
I'm told that quite a few people looking for classic XKs look for ones with five speed gear boxes, personally I'd be looking for one with a Moss box because I feel it's an integral part of the cars personalty, but shall we say they have somewhat of a reputation. When I first looked at selling mine I was also told to put it on radial tyres as the behaviour of cross plies put off a lot of potential customers. Gassing Station | Classic Cars and Yesterday's Heroes | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff