The end of our world as we know it.
Discussion
V8 Fettler said:
It will be the price of petrol that reduces the number of classic cars on the road.
I doubt it. When petrol first got to £1/gallon (1977ish) having been around a third of that for years up til 1974 we thought it would be the end of big Vintage cars, but 40 years (and a fivefold price increase) later you'd have to say it's not the problem.Allan L said:
V8 Fettler said:
It will be the price of petrol that reduces the number of classic cars on the road.
I doubt it. When petrol first got to £1/gallon (1977ish) having been around a third of that for years up til 1974 we thought it would be the end of big Vintage cars, but 40 years (and a fivefold price increase) later you'd have to say it's not the problem.An interesting debate, but I have thought of another aspect to this announcement that just may cause the whole electric car debate to crumble !
We keep being reminded that due to our over usage of electricity in todays modern consumerist society, we cannot sustain any extra large percentage increase. Apparently we are near to capacity, and at certain times have to import the stuff from other countries .
So where are we going to get the extra electricity to charge the damn things ??
We keep being reminded that due to our over usage of electricity in todays modern consumerist society, we cannot sustain any extra large percentage increase. Apparently we are near to capacity, and at certain times have to import the stuff from other countries .
So where are we going to get the extra electricity to charge the damn things ??
No such thing as a free lunch! Where does all this electricity come from? What Volvo and others are going to make are essentially hybrids, and there is absolutely nothing new there - Tilling Stevens petrol electric trucks and buses were in production before the First War for example, and virtually every diesel locomotive is or was diesel electric, i.e. the diesel powered generators to drive the traction motors. Battery performance is far better now, which makes hybrid and others more practical and certainly less polluting in cities, but you still need to, in my view anyway, bear in mind the energy used in making a new car - how many years "saving" until it's paid its own cost? Another contributor also made the very valid point that in this country we are struggling at times to keep up with current (sorry) demands for electricity. So in winter, we'll have to choose between charging the car for next day or having a hot meal! Ho hum - I must fire up my old Jaguar before the homespun econuts stop me!
lowdrag said:
With Volvo announcing that they will, from 2020, only produce electric cars and France announcing today that cars with engines, be it petrol or diesel, will be banned from 2040, where does that leave us and our collectors' pieces? Discuss.
I want you to try and imagine a point say, 4 years in the future where they actually achieve the impossible and ban all cars with internal combustion engines, i.e. everything has an electric motor and batteries that need charged every day at least once. Where are they going to get that kind of power output from all the altenative energy sources that are incapable of providing it now?; especially as they have closed all the carbon fuelled power stations that could easily have provided the appropriate output: the irony is positively overpowering!They never look at or recognise the bigger picture. Never!
J
grumpy52 said:
The new model London taxi will be mainly Volvo running gear with electric power and a small backup engine
That's down to London taxi regs...1st Jan 2018 - no new diesel taxis.
1st Jan 2018 - all new taxis max 50g/km, min 30 mile zero-emission range, petrol only for IC.
https://tfl.gov.uk/modes/driving/ultra-low-emissio...
And that was announced October 2015
https://tfl.gov.uk/info-for/media/press-releases/2...
Allan L said:
V8 Fettler said:
It will be the price of petrol that reduces the number of classic cars on the road.
I doubt it. When petrol first got to £1/gallon (1977ish) having been around a third of that for years up til 1974 we thought it would be the end of big Vintage cars, but 40 years (and a fivefold price increase) later you'd have to say it's not the problem.V8 Fettler said:
If / when the range / charging issues for battery cars are resolved, the sales will rocket, particularly if the green agenda continues to dominate. At some point, it will become uneconomic for the oil companies to continue refining and distributing petrol on the current large scale in the UK. Small scale production will (probably) continue, but the cost per gallon will reflect the loss of the economies of scale.
That's how I see it too. Provided I can afford the cost of fuel, I shall continue driving. When I can't, I shall stop.It is a shame, but with the lower number of young people actually interested in cars / classics, not just the badge and those who will rise to power in the future coming from my generation, in my lifetime I expect to see ICE banned from the road,.
I will be 52 in 2040, from my social group, two of my friends are interested in cars, the others just want a "premium" badge and would always ridicule me for turning up in my latest shed, mx5, etc, they couldn't understand I actually enjoyed owning all the different cars whilst they shovelled their wages up their nose or pi55ed it up the wall, but each to their own.
Without the infrastructure of chargers in place, certainly within Wales, then this policy is just a lame duck, at least for 100% EV, I always thought the CO2 cost of building an Ev was greater than the output of running an ICE with average mileage ..
I will be 52 in 2040, from my social group, two of my friends are interested in cars, the others just want a "premium" badge and would always ridicule me for turning up in my latest shed, mx5, etc, they couldn't understand I actually enjoyed owning all the different cars whilst they shovelled their wages up their nose or pi55ed it up the wall, but each to their own.
Without the infrastructure of chargers in place, certainly within Wales, then this policy is just a lame duck, at least for 100% EV, I always thought the CO2 cost of building an Ev was greater than the output of running an ICE with average mileage ..
It would be of interest to all of us to know the real costs of producing electric vehicles not just at the point of use. Lithium production in Bolivia, Rare earth mining in china, 1/2 ton batteries that will need to be recycled in 10 years, which I believe presently costs more to do than producing new ones, production of enough electricity to charge them, the cost of charging points everywhere. All of the above has a carbon footprint and I bet it's a big one.
cahami said:
It would be of interest to all of us to know the real costs of producing electric vehicles not just at the point of use. Lithium production in Bolivia, Rare earth mining in china, 1/2 ton batteries that will need to be recycled in 10 years, which I believe presently costs more to do than producing new ones, production of enough electricity to charge them, the cost of charging points everywhere. All of the above has a carbon footprint and I bet it's a big one.
I think you're absolutely right.Unfortunately politicians have a habit of ignoring inconvenient truths when it conflicts with the latest political agenda.
I'm surprised that the great unwashed have already overlooked the great diesel fiasco.
Riley Blue said:
V8 Fettler said:
If / when the range / charging issues for battery cars are resolved, the sales will rocket, particularly if the green agenda continues to dominate. At some point, it will become uneconomic for the oil companies to continue refining and distributing petrol on the current large scale in the UK. Small scale production will (probably) continue, but the cost per gallon will reflect the loss of the economies of scale.
That's how I see it too. Provided I can afford the cost of fuel, I shall continue driving. When I can't, I shall stop.Lowtimer said:
Just a reminded that the production and distribution cost of petrol is only a small part of the retail price. Governments are vastly more influential in deciding the retail price of petrol by taxation policies.
Fuel duty has remained static at 58p/litre for years in the UK. Yes, VAT is on top - as it is on everything.
mybrainhurts said:
TooMany2cvs said:
hot metal said:
Parked next to a Tesla yesterday at some services in Scotland, I felt nothing but pity
Went past a Model X on the m'way yesterday. f
k me, but it's HUGE.t.I am a car enthusiast and use more than my share of fuel!
I am also a realist and can see the way things are going. Most car manufacturers seem to think electric is the way we will go.
I am of the same opinion at present and have looked at my 'total energy' expenditure. This includes house, workshop, businesses and vehicles. There is no doubt that vehicles use much more than home/business sites.
I do not plan on giving up my fossil fuel toys, so it is all about the other consumption. I farm and am now going down the minimum tillage/direct drilling route and using cover crop roots to do the 'cultivation' for me. With agricultural motive units there is no regenerative option so the vehicle needs a very large battery and most are working at high torque situations so electric is a way off for most operations.
My other business only uses electrical energy so a solution is simple. Plenty of space for solar generation on top of buildings so that is the answer. I will be installing solar panels and a 'battery'/'capacitor' storage facility (we are already erecting the building) that will be able to generate and store all our electricity needs for that business and my workshop as well as our new home heated by ground source powered by the solar (inc aircon).
The solar will also have the capacity to power our family everyday cars as well as enough to export to the grid to make it a cost free system.
As things stand the UK needs to generate a lot more electricity if electric cars are the future. In my situation 2/3 of my energy consumption is going in my family's cars. How will the country produce 3 times the amount of electricity we currently do?
Big challenges ahead, and being able to generate your own energy may soon be very important.
I am also a realist and can see the way things are going. Most car manufacturers seem to think electric is the way we will go.
I am of the same opinion at present and have looked at my 'total energy' expenditure. This includes house, workshop, businesses and vehicles. There is no doubt that vehicles use much more than home/business sites.
I do not plan on giving up my fossil fuel toys, so it is all about the other consumption. I farm and am now going down the minimum tillage/direct drilling route and using cover crop roots to do the 'cultivation' for me. With agricultural motive units there is no regenerative option so the vehicle needs a very large battery and most are working at high torque situations so electric is a way off for most operations.
My other business only uses electrical energy so a solution is simple. Plenty of space for solar generation on top of buildings so that is the answer. I will be installing solar panels and a 'battery'/'capacitor' storage facility (we are already erecting the building) that will be able to generate and store all our electricity needs for that business and my workshop as well as our new home heated by ground source powered by the solar (inc aircon).
The solar will also have the capacity to power our family everyday cars as well as enough to export to the grid to make it a cost free system.
As things stand the UK needs to generate a lot more electricity if electric cars are the future. In my situation 2/3 of my energy consumption is going in my family's cars. How will the country produce 3 times the amount of electricity we currently do?
Big challenges ahead, and being able to generate your own energy may soon be very important.
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