Tell me about British Leyland
Discussion
LuS1fer said:
mac96 said:
But the UK competition for the Allegro in 1974 was mainly the RWD Escort, Viva and Avenger none of which drove as much like a modern car.
You mean a softly sprung FWD car.Having only ever been passengered in an Allegro, I can't say it stood out as anything other than bouncy mediocrity.
When I was passengered in an Alfasud Ti, that was mind-blowing.
Personally I’d have the Alfa because it’s leagues ahead of both.
saaby93 said:
Breadvan72 said:
"About 2/3 of the way down" a long page of comments. Thanks for being so helpful and clear!'Known problems
The most widely known point of failure was the abnormally high incidence of camshaft and valve gear failure, resulting from blockages to the oil feed passage to the camshaft and valve rockers. The system was designed to provide an intermittent oil feed to limit the amount of oil in the top end and thereby reduce oil consumption – standard engineering practice, but in this application sludge build up could block the oil supply completely with disastrous results.It might also be speculated that the Dolomite Sprint-inspired valve gear had a particularly hard job – each cam had twice the normal amount of work to do, and in the six-cylinder engines also had to cope with far larger valves and consequently stronger springs than the 16-valve four. What is certain was that the situation was not helped by the lengthening of oil change intervals from 6000 to 12,000 miles with the 1982 facelift.
In the 1970s and 1980s top end problems were widespread among the new breed of OHC engines. As well as the Triumph engines mentioned previously, Ford’s Pinto and CVH engines and their GM competitors suffered a variety of wear, lubrication, sealing and gasket frailties.
Not fixing the known problems
Nevertheless, Leyland’s failure to make the changes necessary to address their new engine’s Achilles Heel as soon as the first failures became evident seems like an act of serious commercial negligence, given that the engine was a showpiece for the company’s engineering capabilities, and that a sustained reputation for poor build quality and unreliability across the entire product range was setting sales of most of their products on a downward spiral.
Production of the SD1 six ended in May 1986. Despite an existence lived out in the permanent shadow of the charismatic V8, the six-cylinder engines powered almost exactly half the 303,345 SD1s produced. The 2600 was unquestionably the more popular six, accounting for 35.6 per cent of overall SD1 production. For comparison, the equivalent percentages for the 2300 and all V8s are 14.2 per cent and 37.6 per cent respectively.'
He addressed it by using a special Mobil oil called SHC, which was expensive and hard to find, but he experienced no troubles in 100k miles. I believe SHC was an early fully synthetic oil originally developed for military piston engined aircraft, and was the predecessor of Mobile One, but I'm happy to be corrected.
The Morris 1800 'S' Landcrab above became my first car; huge interior space, built like a tank, fast enough for the time, and pretty good ride & handling on hydragas (until terminal understeer at any rate).
StuntmanMike said:
LuS1fer said:
mac96 said:
But the UK competition for the Allegro in 1974 was mainly the RWD Escort, Viva and Avenger none of which drove as much like a modern car.
You mean a softly sprung FWD car.Having only ever been passengered in an Allegro, I can't say it stood out as anything other than bouncy mediocrity.
When I was passengered in an Alfasud Ti, that was mind-blowing.
Personally I’d have the Alfa because it’s leagues ahead of both.
You re probably right that most of PH would chose an Escort over an Allegro -but that is because the Escort has more scope for modification into a sporty car and of course came in some sporty forms in the first place which gives it 'rally car cool'.. Yes I'd prefer one of those to an Allegro. But in a straight comparison between Allegro and comparably low powered Mk2 Escort the Allegro wins hands down . Of course the Mk3 Escort was hugely ahead of both.
Still, this all a matter of opinion!
mac96 said:
StuntmanMike said:
LuS1fer said:
mac96 said:
But the UK competition for the Allegro in 1974 was mainly the RWD Escort, Viva and Avenger none of which drove as much like a modern car.
You mean a softly sprung FWD car.Having only ever been passengered in an Allegro, I can't say it stood out as anything other than bouncy mediocrity.
When I was passengered in an Alfasud Ti, that was mind-blowing.
Personally I’d have the Alfa because it’s leagues ahead of both.
You re probably right that most of PH would chose an Escort over an Allegro -but that is because the Escort has more scope for modification into a sporty car and of course came in some sporty forms in the first place which gives it 'rally car cool'.. Yes I'd prefer one of those to an Allegro. But in a straight comparison between Allegro and comparably low powered Mk2 Escort the Allegro wins hands down . Of course the Mk3 Escort was hugely ahead of both.
Still, this all a matter of opinion!
I had two Mk 1 Escorts and while I bow to nobody in my love of rorty ,forest spec twin cams and RS 1600s the standard stuff (mine were an 1100 and a 1300GT)had not very much going for them apart from their superslick gearboxes . But unlike my only BL cars , a Midget and a Riley 1300 , they didn't rot overnight, drink oil , overheat or have synchro in name only . All were well pre used cars - I were reet poor as a 20 something in the early 70s.
Come '78 I could afford an Alfasud Ti and every other fwd car I'd driven , Golfs , Allegros and Minis included, felt obsolete overnight . A stunningly brilliant car in every way - braking, steering , grip noise and a close ratio 5 speed box as well . And mine never rusted either.
Come '78 I could afford an Alfasud Ti and every other fwd car I'd driven , Golfs , Allegros and Minis included, felt obsolete overnight . A stunningly brilliant car in every way - braking, steering , grip noise and a close ratio 5 speed box as well . And mine never rusted either.
Edited by coppice on Friday 23 October 07:24
Shame really as my first car was an A40 Farina while my mate had an Anglia.
The Austin was superior in every way, not that the bar was high for either.
Sadly, the little Farina never sold in massive numbers but then that was BL splitting the buyers with a Minor 1000 on offer and the 1100. Talk about infighting.
The Austin was superior in every way, not that the bar was high for either.
Sadly, the little Farina never sold in massive numbers but then that was BL splitting the buyers with a Minor 1000 on offer and the 1100. Talk about infighting.
LuS1fer said:
Shame really as my first car was an A40 Farina while my mate had an Anglia.
The Austin was superior in every way, not that the bar was high for either.
Sadly, the little Farina never sold in massive numbers but then that was BL splitting the buyers with a Minor 1000 on offer and the 1100. Talk about infighting.
The A40 Countryman was one of the first hatchbacks.The Austin was superior in every way, not that the bar was high for either.
Sadly, the little Farina never sold in massive numbers but then that was BL splitting the buyers with a Minor 1000 on offer and the 1100. Talk about infighting.
LuS1fer said:
Shame really as my first car was an A40 Farina while my mate had an Anglia.
The Austin was superior in every way, not that the bar was high for either.
Sadly, the little Farina never sold in massive numbers but then that was BL splitting the buyers with a Minor 1000 on offer and the 1100. Talk about infighting.
One of the many problems at BMC that stemmed from Len Lord was that he had a close and personal relationship with the principals of many of Austin's major dealer principals and overseas agents, and conducted himself with them in a way that would probably not pass scrutiny in terms of modern corporate ethics. Essentially these important dealers/agents had a direct line to Lord and could bypass the rest of the BMC management and board. The Austin was superior in every way, not that the bar was high for either.
Sadly, the little Farina never sold in massive numbers but then that was BL splitting the buyers with a Minor 1000 on offer and the 1100. Talk about infighting.
Obviously the dealers had a vested interest in not allowing any slimming or rationalisation of either the former Austin or Nuffield sales networks once BMC was created or the product range of either of the two halves of the business - each was steadfast in insisting on having a full and equal range of products to sell. So everything had to exist in Austin and Nuffield equivalents - the A40 and Minor existed side by side and all the post-merger corporate platforms had to be fully badge-engineered to keep the dealers happy.
Not only did Austin dealers have to keep the A40 and Morris dealers had to have the Minor, but both had to have versions of those respective models' replacement, the 1100/1300. So not only were Austin and Morris dealers stealing customers from each other, but they were to some extent dividing their own customer base - how many Minor customers would have opted for an 1100 had the Minor not been available?
It's a grand plan to offer essentially four models ranges - FWD and RWD in both Austin and Nuffield flavours, but BMC didn't have the resources or production capacity to properly play that game. Beyond their drivetrains and a few ancillary parts such as lights and interior fittings the A40 and Minor were entirely different cars (each penned before the BMC merger) and because of the four-way splitting of their market neither was built or sold in the quantities needed to be profitable - the Minor saloon was barely so, all the other versions and the entire A40 range lost money overall. These older models also clogged up the scarce production capacity at both Longbridge and Cowley, while there was a perpetual backlog of orders for the 1100/1300 throughout the 1960s and sought-after feature such as the two-door and 1275cc versions were trapped in development hell for years (wasting prime sales potential) because BMC was faffing around giving the Minor a new heater and working synchromesh and putting a new grille and proper brakes on the A40.
The unhealthy influence of the dealers wasn't the only reason behind this - BMC was riddled with an 'us and them' attitude between the two halves - but it was a block at the upper levels of the organisastion which stymied several proposals to either slim down the model lineup or split it so that one part of the group would deal with the FWD stuff and the other would do RWD stuff. Of course that just led to infighting between dealers and other managers about neither wanting 'their' marque to be the one to get the 'inferior' RWD products. And then you have Issigonis' personal disinterest in actually designing RWD cars, despite being Technical Director of an organisation where the majority of its products were RWD - hence why no modern RWD cars were designed to potentially replace the likes of the Minor/A40/Farina-B (and why the replacement for the Farina-C, the Austin 3-Litre, was such a dog) and why when the BMC board asked Issigonis for a 'Cortina beater' he gave them the wildly inappropriate Maxi.
It's interesting that in markets where BMC started afresh without an established pre-merger presence (like Sweden) it operated as a single entity with dealers selling all the marques and with the new FWD products badged as 'BMC' rather than Austin, Morris etc. which probably illustrates what those in the Sales & Distribution department wanted to do in the UK but couldn't.
StuntmanMike said:
In the late eighties I worked as a mechanic. Non dealership so all second hand stuff.
Build quality and reliability BL were no worse than any other ( Ford, Vauxhall, Rootes, etc ) but for me they just made very undesirable cars.
A few exceptions but generally horrible things.
But what people forget is all cars in those days were pretty grim.
1978 VW Golf GTi Mk.1Build quality and reliability BL were no worse than any other ( Ford, Vauxhall, Rootes, etc ) but for me they just made very undesirable cars.
A few exceptions but generally horrible things.
But what people forget is all cars in those days were pretty grim.
Like most I have my own stories, but my opinion at the time was that such uninspired cars could not be made by anyone with any serious interest in cars, and that people who lacked a serious interest in cars would not run a successful car business. And so it proved, to no great surprise, but the execs who ran it at the time thought they were whiz kids. Of course, the labour relations were impossible, and the Labour Party's unspoken promise was that it would be subsidized to protect jobs in the coming Socialist Workers' Paradise. Unfortunately for them, Mrs. T happened along.
Edited by cardigankid on Friday 23 October 18:40
cardigankid said:
1978 VW Golf GTi Mk.1
Like most I have my own stories, but my opinion at the time was that such uninspired cars could not be made by anyone with any serious interest in cars, and that people who lacked a serious interest in cars would not run a successful car business. And so it proved, to no great surprise, but the execs who ran it at the time thought they were whiz kids. Of course, the labour relations were impossible, and the Labour Party's unspoken promise was that it would be subsidized to protect jobs in the coming Socialist Workers' Paradise. Unfortunately for them, Mrs. T happened along.
Except that it was a Labour government which called time on the unions, appointed Michael Edwardes with an explicit mandate to 'prune the tree' and 're-establish management's right to manage', backed him in the closure of the Speke plant, the dismissal of Derek Robinson at Longbridge and the shedding of 90,000 jobs from BL and its suppliers. All before the Winter of Discontent, let along the '79 election. Like most I have my own stories, but my opinion at the time was that such uninspired cars could not be made by anyone with any serious interest in cars, and that people who lacked a serious interest in cars would not run a successful car business. And so it proved, to no great surprise, but the execs who ran it at the time thought they were whiz kids. Of course, the labour relations were impossible, and the Labour Party's unspoken promise was that it would be subsidized to protect jobs in the coming Socialist Workers' Paradise. Unfortunately for them, Mrs. T happened along.
As with many of these things, the success (or relative lack of failure, to be more accurate) at BL during the '80s was mostly due to groundwork done in the 75-80 period following BLMC's collapse finally bearing fruit.
cardigankid said:
Like most I have my own stories, but my opinion at the time was that such uninspired cars could not be made by anyone with any serious interest in cars
I'm not sure that I would call them uninspired. Some of the designs were pretty phenomenal compared to their competing products. I own a lot of old European cars (50+). The best luxury car built in the 80's was no question a Mercedes Benz W126. Does that mean I dislike my XJ12? Well I hate working on it but the thing is a delight to drive. As are my other Jaguars, Triumph TR6 etc. When I owned my old 73 MGB, I took a serious look at a Mazdaspeed Miata (the turbo charged one). It wasn't as much fun. The thing about new cars is that while they're much faster, you never feel as connected and they're not as much fun to drive. I would consider many to be more uninspiring than anything from the 70's-90's.As a young adult in the 90's, I thought that the Rover 800 Coupe and Rover Tomcat were great looking cars. How they were built? No idea but I suspect that it was built by people who have terrible attitude. Back in 2000 when I still lived in the UK, I took a weekend trip to Birmingham and tried to park my car, which was a 1988 BMW E30 in a multi story. I was told by parking attendant that I shouldn't park it there because it'll likely get vandalized because of what was going on with Rover and BMW. Seriously? So BMW was selling Rover and the answer was to take it out on a 22 year old kid with a 12 year old BMW.
Edited by alabbasi on Friday 23 October 20:06
cardigankid said:
Brilliant, Alfasuds rusted to nothing before your very eyes.
Not all of them didn't - although , as with Lancias, it is apparently compulsory to say they did . My first was already 3 years old when I bought it , and had not a speck of rust when I sold at 5 years old . My second was bought new and rust was the only problem it didn't have in the 3 years I had it . Unlike the first , it was shoddily built and unreliable and ruined by overgearing compared to my first Ti. And the Suds were far, far better than the now beatified Mk 1 Golf GTi which followed them in every respect except acceleration . And actually, no , I didn't think very long about getting a Maestro EFI . But I was tempted by the Metro GTi with the lovely 1.4 K 16 valve engine which later served me so well in a Caterham - the Metro was really nice to drive but the Latins won again - all it took was planting foot to floor in an Uno Turbo . But that is another story .....
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