Tell me about British Leyland

[StuntmanMike]

mbwoy84 said:

Scotty2 said:

Just watched them both last night! Mmm I have a Trio of Rover 800s... I wonder how easy it was to get driveshafts e.t.c for the conversion to use an EOG rather than an in sump one.

I have an Ambassador and Maxi which would also benefit from an 820 turbo lump...

You would have seen me in the V6 Allegro Video then as my workshop has it in at the moment!

I've just sold an 820 Turbo Engine this week. I also have an Ambassador, but that is a never-welded car with a total timewarp interior, so will be saying standard that on!

You the guy from Bridgnorth? How you doing, I was chuffed it was there, I grew up in Broseley.

PS, I wasn’t born there as I have all my fingers and toes.

[CDP]

Scotty2 said:

Just watched them both last night! Mmm I have a Trio of Rover 800s... I wonder how easy it was to get driveshafts e.t.c for the conversion to use an EOG rather than an in sump one.

I have an Ambassador and Maxi which would also benefit from an 820 turbo lump...

I think an Ambassador or Princess would make an excellent EV with effortless, silent propulsion to add to the space and fine ride. I'm almost tempted to find a four cylinder Princess to adapt. The other candidate would be a Citroen CX.

[MuscleSedan]

imagineifyeswill said:

Anyone who ever drove an early Allegro with the quartic wheel would tell you it was practically undriveable, how it ever got past prototype stage amazes me. However BL at the time were slow to learn and tried again with the first SD1s which were fitted with an oval wheel.

BL were so far ahead of the game it's unreal ....



[url]

|https://thumbsnap.com/JxuR4vyi[/url]

[a8hex]

MuscleSedan said:

imagineifyeswill said:

Anyone who ever drove an early Allegro with the quartic wheel would tell you it was practically undriveable, how it ever got past prototype stage amazes me. However BL at the time were slow to learn and tried again with the first SD1s which were fitted with an oval wheel.

BL were so far ahead of the game it's unreal ....

I'd been going to post a less extreme MB one. Not only was the wheel not round, I found it completely obscured both the speedo and the rev counter. Round wheels are obviously so square

PS. some of those interiors were so tasteless

[coppice]

Correction - they are all utterly ghastly ! The Pagani (? - fourth one down - or is it a Spyker or something equally rarefied ? ) might cost gazillions but its style is pure Woolworths chic , the sort of tasteless guff Michael Jackson apparently loved.

[a8hex]

coppice said:

Correction - they are all utterly ghastly ! The Pagani (? - fourth one down - or is it a Spyker or something equally rarefied ? ) might cost gazillions but its style is pure Woolworths chic , the sort of tasteless guff Michael Jackson apparently loved.

The top ones look like they've playstation accessories, the rose gold one beyond ghastly, but then so many things seem to be. I'm just thankful that I'm unlikely ever to need to suffer one in the metal.

[Riley Blue]

There used to be an interesting discussion about BL around here; anyone seen it lately?

[Zener]

Agree with the above comments sadly I' not so forgiving they all look absolutely ste trying to reinvent the wheel and all that the copper coloured bling is bloody tasteless garbage

[Yertis]

Riley Blue said:

There used to be an interesting discussion about BL around here; anyone seen it lately?

I think everything that can be said, has been said. I've learned a lot about BL. I tend to forget that I drive a Leyland product. When I think of 'BL' I don't really include Triumphs as I know them. 'BL' just conjures up half-remembered news footage of men striking, and Morris Marinas.

With regard to the steering wheels I think it is valid here. When stylists put odd-shaped steering wheels in exotic cars next to no one can afford it's all "how daring, how innovative etc", but when BL did it – getting on for fifty years ago – in cars nearly anyone can afford, they're branded idiots.

[lowdrag]

Mikebentley said:

Gratuitous pic: The Vitesse is original in every way, the Jag was raced in early 60’s through to 80s in clubman stuff. Very subtle mods. C Type head? HDU8s on sandcastle manifold? And I have fitted twin stainless exhaust.

The C-type head is different and was standard fit on the Mk VIIM and XK140M and had a red C-type badge on the cam cover. As regards the carbs, do you mean H8 sand cast carbs like these?

[Mikebentley]

lowdrag said:

Mikebentley said:

Gratuitous pic: The Vitesse is original in every way, the Jag was raced in early 60’s through to 80s in clubman stuff. Very subtle mods. C Type head? HDU8s on sandcastle manifold? And I have fitted twin stainless exhaust.

The C-type head is different and was standard fit on the Mk VIIM and XK140M and had a red C-type badge on the cam cover. As regards the carbs, do you mean H8 sand cast carbs like these?

Yes they’re the puppies.

[2xChevrons]

Yertis said:

I think everything that can be said, has been said. I've learned a lot about BL. I tend to forget that I drive a Leyland product. When I think of 'BL' I don't really include Triumphs as I know them. 'BL' just conjures up half-remembered news footage of men striking, and Morris Marinas.

With regard to the steering wheels I think it is valid here. When stylists put odd-shaped steering wheels in exotic cars next to no one can afford it's all "how daring, how innovative etc", but when BL did it – getting on for fifty years ago – in cars nearly anyone can afford, they're branded idiots.

It is interesting how 'Allegros, Marinas and Strikes' is very much the dominant perception of BL, as is the kneejerk opinion that everything they ever made was utter dross.

I used to work with someone who stated that there wasn't a single BL car that he liked and they were all terrible. Then I reminded him that he had previously said that he had driven and enjoyed the Rover SD1, the Rover P6B, the Triumph TR7, the Triumph TR6, the Triumph Spitfire, the Triumph Dolomite Sprint, the Triumph 2.5PI, the MGB GT V8, the MG Midget, the MG Maestro EFi, the MG Metro, the Range Rover, the Land Rover, the Jaguar XJS, the Jaguar XJC, the Austin 1300GT and the Mini 1275GT.

A large portion of BL's catalogue, in other words!

"Oh yeah" he said. "I suppose they do count as BL, don't they? I just always go straight to thinking of beige Marinas, rubber bumper MG roadsters and crummy one-litre Minis."

As for the steering wheels; if the Citroen GS, Renault 5 or Mazda 929 had had a square steering wheel in 1973 it would now be lauded as a lovably eccentric bit of bold, if misjudged, 70s design and people would have them mounted on the walls of their man caves or in the reception spaces of crushingly trendy media companies. But because it came from BL and was attached to the Allegro it's just a joke that is, at best, admired ironically.

The Quartic wheel was a daft idea but hardly worth the opprobrium it gets. It certainly doesn't render an early Allegro 'undriveable' as was stated up-thread - I've drive many miles in Quartic-wheeled Allegros and it really makes no difference to anything. You can't do 'helmsman'-like twirling or catch any lift-off oversteer or anything like that, but the Allegro isn't the platform for that sort of thing anyway. I will agree that putting the Quartic wheel on the 1750 SuperSport which, however inappropriately-named, was supposed to be the 'driver's' model, was stupid. But on an 1100L? Perfectly inoffensive.

The original Rover SD1 had a Quartic wheel too - albeit more subtle - and you don't hear much of that.

[2xChevrons]

Edit: Double-post for some reason...

[Yertis]

2xChevrons said:

Edit: Double-post for some reason...

It was a good post, worthy of repetition.

[williamp]

So do we need a "good things about BL" or "BL got their first" list??

- The sporting Marina used red trim on the grill... before the sporting Golf made it a trademark
-Triumph put a powerful engine in a small saloon, with four headlights.... Before BMW made it their trademark
-Triumph were early pioneers in fuel injection, offering it over a wide range of models.
-the Range Rover
-The Land Rover
-The XJ12 was faster, better handling and smoother then anything from Mercedes or BMW at the time. Or perhaps Rolls Royce too
-The Mini
-Selling saloon cars with an all alloy V8 engine. Yes it started as an American unit, but that engine in a saloon car. Fantastic.

[Mr Tidy]

williamp said:

So do we need a "good things about BL" or "BL got their first" list??

- The sporting Marina used red trim on the grill... before the sporting Golf made it a trademark
-Triumph put a powerful engine in a small saloon, with four headlights.... Before BMW made it their trademark
-Triumph were early pioneers in fuel injection, offering it over a wide range of models.
-the Range Rover
-The Land Rover
-The XJ12 was faster, better handling and smoother then anything from Mercedes or BMW at the time. Or perhaps Rolls Royce too
-The Mini
-Selling saloon cars with an all alloy V8 engine. Yes it started as an American unit, but that engine in a saloon car. Fantastic.

In parts maybe, like the red grille!

Fiat put a 75 bhp engine in a small saloon with 4 headlights in 1961 by all accounts which was more powerful than the 1600 Vitesse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_1300_and_1500

Triumph may have adopted FI early on, but it was a terrible application by all accounts. Why use parts supplied by the prince of darkness (unless they were cheap)!

The Range Rover was just a copy of earlier Jeep models.

Much the same as the LR was a copy of the WW2 Jeep.

Although the XJ12 seemed fantastic back in the 70s!

The Mini was impressive, but it didn't do much more than the Fiat 500 Nuova that was released years before.

I had a P6B with the alloy V8 in the 80s but it didn't do anything my Capri with a Cologne V6 couldn't do!

They just mostly seemed like 2nd/3rd rate options to me - which is probably why I only had one before I moved on and have never looked back.

[2xChevrons]

Mr Tidy said:

In parts maybe, like the red grille!

Fiat put a 75 bhp engine in a small saloon with 4 headlights in 1961 by all accounts which was more powerful than the 1600 Vitesse. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_1300_and_1500

Triumph may have adopted FI early on, but it was a terrible application by all accounts. Why use parts supplied by the prince of darkness (unless they were cheap)!

The Range Rover was just a copy of earlier Jeep models.

Much the same as the LR was a copy of the WW2 Jeep.

Although the XJ12 seemed fantastic back in the 70s!

The Mini was impressive, but it didn't do much more than the Fiat 500 Nuova that was released years before.

I had a P6B with the alloy V8 in the 80s but it didn't do anything my Capri with a Cologne V6 couldn't do!

They just mostly seemed like 2nd/3rd rate options to me - which is probably why I only had one before I moved on and have never looked back.

We can trade opinions all day of course, but this does seem rather negative to me...

The Mini Cooper and the MG 1100 both presaged the hot hatch in the early 1960s.

The problem with the fuel-injected Triumphs was never the Lucas system itself - a system that was perfectly successful in racing and aviation applications and was much more reliable than the contemporary Kugelfischer system working on the same principles - but in Triumph's rather botched installation at their end.

The likes of the Wagoneer and Bronco may have originated the SUV concept but the Range Rover was no mere copy of those - it was a bold original design in the same spirit and the first to genuinely combine off-roader practicality with saloon car comfort and technology.

Similarly the Land Rover may have been inspired by the Jeep (and the first prototypes directly based on one) but it was an improved, enlarged, refined version of the idea and the first 4x4 to be specifically designed for multi-purpose civilian use.

The Jaguar XJ6 and 12 really do speak for themselves.

The Mini did a whole lot of stuff that the 500 didn't - carries more people/stuff, had more space per size, was faster, was better to drive, was a more versatile and 'stretchable' platform etc. The Mini is a complex thing to analyse since it is simultaneously a work of singular genius that - as much I try to convince myself otherwise - is my candidate for the greatest single car of all time. It was also deeply flawed in many ways and it's almost certain that many of the deep-running issues that ultimately killed the British motor industry were either caused by the Mini or greatly worsened by it.

The P6 was similarly an astoundingly forward-looking and well-engineered car. That it may not have been better practically than a V6 Capri (debatable, I'd say...) speaks more to Rover/Britain's love of over-engineering things instead of just doing straightforward stuff that works, but that's not a slight on the car itself.

Edit: As when this discussion surfaced earlier in the thread, I feel I should point out that all these cars were pre-BL products. The number of cars BL actually birthed itself is understandably short:

Mini Clubman/1275GT
Morris Marina (and Ital)
Land Rover Series III
Austin Allegro
Jaguar XJS
18-22/Princess (and Austin Ambassador)
Triumph Dolomite + Sprint
Triumph TR7/8
Jaguar XJ Series 2/XJC
Rover SD1
Triumph Acclaim
Jaguar XJ Series 3
Austin/MG Metro
Austin/MG Maestro
Austin/MG Montego
Land Rover Ninety/One Ten
Rover SD3
Rover 800

There are edge-case like the Austin Maxi and Jaguar XJ6 which were wholly developed (or "developed" in the Maxi's case...) before BL was created but launched under BL management. Arguably the Range Rover falls into this category too since it is an 'all-Rover' product. You could argue the same for stuff like the Land Rover SIII and Dolomite which - Sprint engine aside - were conceived and entirely made from bits developed pre-BL. I've also excluded updates versions of existing models like the Series 2 Rover P6, MK3 ADO16s, six-cylinder Landcrabs or the Spitfire/Midget 1500s.

Edited by 2xChevrons on Saturday 14th November 06:57

[Yertis]

Triumph introduced the “Targa” top long before Porsche.

[AlmondGreen]

Just caught up with this great thread. Brings back childhood memories of parents and relatives’ various BMC products, mainly Minis and 1100s of multiple guises including a Wolsley 1100 complete with illuminated badge. Dad traded in a Mini Traveller for a new Morris 1100 Traveller, a big step up in space and comfort with its advanced 3-door hatchback design. Interestingly none moved on to an Allegro, although Dad briefly had an early 1750 Maxi. At the time the Triumph 2500 Estate, Dolomite Sprint and Stag were in my eyes the epitome of cool executive cars, which as mentioned previously were all wasted under BL and BMW moved to dominate this space.

Years later in Australia I needed a cheap car and bought a Marina 1.8 TC coupe as it was one of the few cars on the lot I recognised. Was surprised to find it had a Maxi E-Series engine and not the B-Series I was expecting. It lasted several months before expiring with terminal engine trouble. To save money the Coupe used the front doors from the 4-door version which made getting in the back a challenge.

In the mid-1970s Car Magazine customised a Marina Estate. The renamed Marauder had various cosmetic changes, improved suspension and slightly modified engine to make it more appealing. See https://www.flickriver.com/photos/triggerscarstuff... for the detail.

[2xChevrons]

AlmondGreen said:

Years later in Australia I needed a cheap car and bought a Marina 1.8 TC coupe as it was one of the few cars on the lot I recognised. Was surprised to find it had a Maxi E-Series engine and not the B-Series I was expecting. It lasted several months before expiring with terminal engine trouble.

BMC Australia had been a big driver behind the development of the E-Series, pushing for a more modern, higher-output OHC engine to see off Japanese and American competition. BL Australia had its own plant to build the E-Series in-country and put the 1.5 version in the ADO16 as the Morris 1500 and Nomad only just after Maxi production began in the UK. They were the first to use the six-cylinder version (in the Kimberly/Tasman) and then developed a RWD version for the Marina, including a unique 2.6-litre version which also went into the P76.

The four-cylinder E-Series was such a turd of an engine that the single-carb 1.75-litre version barely made any more power than the 1.5. BL Australia solved that issue by putting a restrictor plate in the intake manifold of the smaller engine so it made even less power.

I dread to think how the E4 stood up to Australian conditions...or didn't! Why anyone would buy a Leyland Marina over a Datsun 510 I don't know. I suppose, as in you case, it was made from largely familiar bits and maybe people assumed it would be as durable as the Morris Minor and Major had been before it.