JD Classics, what have they been up to?
Discussion
Breadvan72 said:
Is all the spy talk something to do with people giving cheerful descriptions of old Jags that may or may not have been owned by someone famous, or raced at some famous races? Does anyone who buys such cars really believe anything that they are told about them? They have all been rebuilt in sheds 97 times.
Some of you may recall the two cases about old Bentleys that went on a while back. When the sort of car dealer who sells those sort of cars says "Captain Barnato raced this one at Brooklands in nineteen twenty whatever", he is surely to be taken to mean "There are maybe three components in the car that you are looking at that were present when that happened, and two of them were in the mechanic's van as spares".
Indeed. Within limits it is all a charade. And when seeking to take apart the most blatant fakes there is always the risk of bringing the whole lot tumbling down. Some of you may recall the two cases about old Bentleys that went on a while back. When the sort of car dealer who sells those sort of cars says "Captain Barnato raced this one at Brooklands in nineteen twenty whatever", he is surely to be taken to mean "There are maybe three components in the car that you are looking at that were present when that happened, and two of them were in the mechanic's van as spares".
The Bugatti my great grandfather raced still turns up at Prescott despite us knowing what happened to it during the war. The lightweight E type that claims matching numbers despite the owner knowing that the engine was campaigned in my father’s Mkii and it’s final watery resting place is a quarry north of London. And I remember one of the expert witnesses of that Bentley case explaining that the only truly original Bentley of that era was a car that had been built from scratch using 100% original parts in the 80s and I believe that even that has acquired an identity in recent years.
Total honesty isn’t going to be found in the same place as money. You probably own the only honest car collection on the planet and it should be worth millions of honesty had any value.
Breadvan72 said:
Thanks, that was an interesting read. Bonkers indeed.Did Mr Lloyd persue his claim as was indicated?
Breadvan72 said:
Good grief.I raced against the Lloyd brothers many moons ago in historic touring cars. (Although "against" in that context really meant trying not to get lapped before half distance. As the saying goes, "There ain't no substitute for
DonkeyApple said:
Indeed. Within limits it is all a charade. And when seeking to take apart the most blatant fakes there is always the risk of bringing the whole lot tumbling down.
The Bugatti my great grandfather raced still turns up at Prescott despite us knowing what happened to it during the war. The lightweight E type that claims matching numbers despite the owner knowing that the engine was campaigned in my father’s Mkii and it’s final watery resting place is a quarry north of London. And I remember one of the expert witnesses of that Bentley case explaining that the only truly original Bentley of that era was a car that had been built from scratch using 100% original parts in the 80s and I believe that even that has acquired an identity in recent years.
Total honesty isn’t going to be found in the same place as money. You probably own the only honest car collection on the planet and it should be worth millions of honesty had any value.
Assume it's a fake and enjoy the experience of driving it. The Bugatti my great grandfather raced still turns up at Prescott despite us knowing what happened to it during the war. The lightweight E type that claims matching numbers despite the owner knowing that the engine was campaigned in my father’s Mkii and it’s final watery resting place is a quarry north of London. And I remember one of the expert witnesses of that Bentley case explaining that the only truly original Bentley of that era was a car that had been built from scratch using 100% original parts in the 80s and I believe that even that has acquired an identity in recent years.
Total honesty isn’t going to be found in the same place as money. You probably own the only honest car collection on the planet and it should be worth millions of honesty had any value.
The first ever Minor at Gaydon looks to have been reshelled. The first ever Mini lost its Webasto sunroof but nobody remembers how this happened. '59 Mini experts can pick holes in it from 20 paces.
It's all bulls
t, and the classic car market has always had more shysters and criminals than the rest of the motor trade put together. Edited by Touring442 on Wednesday 5th August 13:17
DonkeyApple said:
...
Total honesty isn’t going to be found in the same place as money. ...
Wise words. A fair chunk of my professional life happens because those words are true. Nowadays, some of my clients belong to the 1% of the 1%. Terms such as "fraud", "dishonesty", "breach of trust", and "unsconscionable dealings" come up quite often. Have a look, for example, at the saga of the Crocianis, recently litigating in various places. Total honesty isn’t going to be found in the same place as money. ...
Who was it that said "If you want to know God's opinion of money, look at the people he gives it to"?
Reports on civil court cases are better than TV comedy (for everyone apart from the litigants).
Now I must go, I have two Rembrandts to finish painting before tea time. Then it's back to my old Jag. It was driven by several greats (ex Hawthorn, Moss, Hill, Salvadori, Surtees).
The abbreviation ex does mean excluding doesn't it?
Now I must go, I have two Rembrandts to finish painting before tea time. Then it's back to my old Jag. It was driven by several greats (ex Hawthorn, Moss, Hill, Salvadori, Surtees).
The abbreviation ex does mean excluding doesn't it?
silentbrown said:
...(Although "against" in that context really meant trying not to get lapped before half distance. ...)
When I first moved to my current abode it was a new development and we ended up with a pretty active residents group and a one popular social activity was for the blokes to go carting, except one of the guys raced as his main hobby. He and his brother would typically lap the rest of us on three lap races & the way the carts were swapped between races made no difference 
Breadvan72 said:
What a complete waste of time and money.The provenance of some of the racecars i have worked on would fry some peoples brain, with all the chassis plate swaps that went on to get around the old carnet paperwork used, or even complete chassis exchanges that used to go on with production F1 cars like March when a car was crashed. When you do a full stripdown and remove the layers of paint and strip out the bag tanks etc. you can find some really fun things.
Everything that is removed and replaced due to age is kept, just so you have the evidence that might be required in 30 years time if someone disputes the history.
Thankfully the DVLA thing doesn't come into it.
To quote from Specials by John Bolster, he and his late brother used to have a very happy time competing in speed trials and hill climbs with two specials which they had built.
“ I am almost ashamed to admit that we also drove them on the road. We could never drive in close proximity, however, as, no doubt owing to some oversight on the part of the licensing authorities, both cars had the same registration number“
Peter3442 said:
Then it's back to my old Jag. It was driven by several greats (ex Hawthorn, Moss, Hill, Salvadori, Surtees)
When I sell my classic I might say "There aren't many cars of the era that were driven by Hawthorn, Moss, Hill, Salvadori and Surtees" - completely irrelevant but not untrue!
I don’t want to name names but a now deceased uncle used to build a particular pre war car into race cars with great success and was a world wide renowned specialist. He would buy any gearboxes or engines he could many of which were formerly marine or military vehicle running gear. He would then create VSCC competition vehicles from random parts and sell them for £250k each.
He had an English wheel and when buyers from overseas came round to his workshop would roll ally back and forth for 30 seconds nodding and implying he created the £20k bodies himself. He paid an old skilled drunk from the village who for day rate knocked them up in a week or two. When I asked him how these cars were given identities and reg plates and passed scrutineering he showed me the old factory records which he owned. He then pointed out he was the VSCC scrutineer for that particular car.
He was an oily belligerent old bugger with a fantastic mind and mechanical ability the match of anyone. If he told you it was Tuesday on Monday you believed him.
What he did was give them what they wanted and I for one miss him. These cars are just “Triggers broom”. Fools and their money.
P.S. If he knew someone had nothing he would give his time and knowledge for free. Before he died he was funding a mechanical apprenticeship for disadvantaged kids costing him millions.
He had an English wheel and when buyers from overseas came round to his workshop would roll ally back and forth for 30 seconds nodding and implying he created the £20k bodies himself. He paid an old skilled drunk from the village who for day rate knocked them up in a week or two. When I asked him how these cars were given identities and reg plates and passed scrutineering he showed me the old factory records which he owned. He then pointed out he was the VSCC scrutineer for that particular car.
He was an oily belligerent old bugger with a fantastic mind and mechanical ability the match of anyone. If he told you it was Tuesday on Monday you believed him.
What he did was give them what they wanted and I for one miss him. These cars are just “Triggers broom”. Fools and their money.
P.S. If he knew someone had nothing he would give his time and knowledge for free. Before he died he was funding a mechanical apprenticeship for disadvantaged kids costing him millions.
Doofus said:
Nikki Lauda drove me round Brands in a Transit once.
Bet that's worth a fortune.
Not in Nikki Lauda's league, but Tiff Needell drove me at the Longcross Proving Grounds (only it wasn't call that then) in a Vauxhall Carlton, I bet that's rusted to pieces and been scrapped by now. Bet that's worth a fortune.
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