JD Classics, what have they been up to?
Discussion
neutral 3 said:
Some excellent posts on here. None of us know Tukes financial affairs, but it’s said that he sold the med co for over £60 million quid in circa 2007, no idea how many ££ millions he would have been left with after tax etc. I can’t recall how many £ millions, he spent @ JDs, but by late 2010 ish, he “ Is Short of ££ Cash “ for a tax bill ??
He had evidently ringfenced an amount of money to see him through his dotage. I that respect, he showed some sense. The rest of the money was for buying cars, paying tax bills and so on.Because he was told by Hood that he was onto a sure thing, he presumed he'd be able to sell a car or two when the time came to settle his tax bill, without affecting the cash he'd put aside.
Doofus said:
I know. I'm just saying that speculation is not good for genuine enthusiasts.
It's not good for poor enthusiasts, but considering the costs of keeping these cars in good condition and in use, only the wealthy can afford that anyway.There are still classics us mere mortals can buy into and keep going as a hobby. The high end stuff has always been a challenge.
Probably for a different thread though.
neutral 3 said:
So...... Will Tuke get Any of his awarded ££ cash back ?
I didn’t realise that Derek Hood had filed for bankruptcy earlier this year.
Stunned that Derek Hood got £38 million quid in circa 2015 and that he appeared in the Sunday Times ££ Rich list.
I missed the filing for bankruptcy bit. I read the bit about a bankruptcy petition being lodged by HMRC, but I though the was appealing it.I didn’t realise that Derek Hood had filed for bankruptcy earlier this year.
Stunned that Derek Hood got £38 million quid in circa 2015 and that he appeared in the Sunday Times ££ Rich list.
I suspect the next round of litigation will involve following the money (to his wife and then on to overseas havens)
If this were a criminal case I suspect there'd be more chance of getting the money, as the judge would be able to set a sentence based on whether he coughs up what's due or not, and I doubt Hood would want to spend his dotage in clink.
If this were a criminal case I suspect there'd be more chance of getting the money, as the judge would be able to set a sentence based on whether he coughs up what's due or not, and I doubt Hood would want to spend his dotage in clink.
Adrian E said:
If this were a criminal case I suspect there'd be more chance of getting the money, as the judge would be able to set a sentence based on whether he coughs up what's due or not, and I doubt Hood would want to spend his dotage in clink.
I thought fraud WAS criminal?Or is this a case of a civil prosecution being brought because the CPS decided not to bother (i.e. not certain of winning)?
jsf said:
Doofus said:
I know. I'm just saying that speculation is not good for genuine enthusiasts.
It's not good for poor enthusiasts, but considering the costs of keeping these cars in good condition and in use, only the wealthy can afford that anyway.There are still classics us mere mortals can buy into and keep going as a hobby. The high end stuff has always been a challenge.
Probably for a different thread though.
Being into a car that no one likes (yet) is is great as the cars always come to you.
I owned a Mk9 Jag as a teenager in the 80s and then a Mk10 and an Stype. These were all given to me as they were non runners, parked up and left in garages. Not being a Mk2 or E-type they were worthless.
In the same way that you would look at a non running 1990 - 2010 Jag as being worthless in todays market.
You could look at classic VW/ 911's heading in the same direction. High demand, yet a huge pool of a production cars fueling a business in sourcing them from around the world.
Now if you want a 'restomod' version of a 911 there are dozens of companies doing it.
I dont think the JD Classic fraud was any worse than any other as this was a person wanting a return on his investment by using a 3rd party. It is like sueing your stock broker and as long as you dont pay capital gains tax on a car sale so this will always draw in people who are not enthusiasts.
This guy has over 900 Nissan Figaros in the US, is he a speculator or an enthusiast? A good guy or a bad guy?
sisu said:
You said speculation is not good for genuine enthusiasts, I would disagree with that. If the best version of the car is only ever going to be worth 3-4 figures why restore or maintain it?
'Traditionally' classic car ownership has always been about passion outweighing value. Once that balance flips, then it ceases to be a hobby.sisu said:
You said speculation is not good for genuine enthusiasts, I would disagree with that. If the best version of the car is only ever going to be worth 3-4 figures why restore or maintain it?
Being into a car that no one likes (yet) is is great as the cars always come to you.
I owned a Mk9 Jag as a teenager in the 80s and then a Mk10 and an Stype. These were all given to me as they were non runners, parked up and left in garages. Not being a Mk2 or E-type they were worthless.
In the same way that you would look at a non running 1990 - 2010 Jag as being worthless in todays market.
You could look at classic VW/ 911's heading in the same direction. High demand, yet a huge pool of a production cars fueling a business in sourcing them from around the world.
Now if you want a 'restomod' version of a 911 there are dozens of companies doing it.
I dont think the JD Classic fraud was any worse than any other as this was a person wanting a return on his investment by using a 3rd party. It is like sueing your stock broker and as long as you dont pay capital gains tax on a car sale so this will always draw in people who are not enthusiasts.
This guy has over 900 Nissan Figaros in the US, is he a speculator or an enthusiast? A good guy or a bad guy?
I’d aregue that the chap with 900 Figaro’s is just mental with the same illness of all men who set out to corner a market. Being into a car that no one likes (yet) is is great as the cars always come to you.
I owned a Mk9 Jag as a teenager in the 80s and then a Mk10 and an Stype. These were all given to me as they were non runners, parked up and left in garages. Not being a Mk2 or E-type they were worthless.
In the same way that you would look at a non running 1990 - 2010 Jag as being worthless in todays market.
You could look at classic VW/ 911's heading in the same direction. High demand, yet a huge pool of a production cars fueling a business in sourcing them from around the world.
Now if you want a 'restomod' version of a 911 there are dozens of companies doing it.
I dont think the JD Classic fraud was any worse than any other as this was a person wanting a return on his investment by using a 3rd party. It is like sueing your stock broker and as long as you dont pay capital gains tax on a car sale so this will always draw in people who are not enthusiasts.
This guy has over 900 Nissan Figaros in the US, is he a speculator or an enthusiast? A good guy or a bad guy?
Very popular cars and I’m a fan. They’ve been classics for years and anyone who likes them enough to buy one has had a decade to do exactly that. Of course, those who will only come to like them once they become too expensive for their personal budget will then blame other people for them not getting one when they were well under their personal budget.
It is completely part of our DNA to covet what others have or desire while holding in disdain stuff that people don’t want or desire. It’s what creates and underpins the entire value cycle of cars. Desirable when brand new, trending into undesirable as newer things come out and then loss of supply during the doldrums then most of the cars are unwanted, uneconomical and scrapped before suddenly becoming desirable again but with massively limited supply so prices just keep rises to reflect the amount of money supply available to fuel it.
Hoarding and market cornering often have weird side effects on a niche market. It’s seen as a stock overhang for starters so often retards any natural price rises as the market knows there is a massive supplier who can smash values.
Then there is the problem that it inhibits the growth of spare parts supply and specialist garage support as too much of the supply is sitting there not needing parts or labour so the support network fails to grow properly and this stunts the market.
And finally, there is of course the ever so common ‘accidental’ fire that suddenly decimated supply.
Hoarding isn’t good for a market. At best it stunts activity and growth and at worse it’s a form of manipulation to create a false market to the detriment of all participants.
Yet again it’s an activity with is proven to be bad for market participants which is why regulated markets contain legislation and rules to curb or prevent it.
Try and hoard equity in a listed company and see what crops up to stop you. Likewise with trying to corner a market or acting in consort with others to do so.
The used car market is basically the Wild West. There are basic laws in the background but for them to be relevant there must be a party willing to enforce them. Which there rarely is.
There are thousands of Hoods out there. They are ubiquitous or maybe a more appropriate term I s Legion.
Doofus said:
sisu said:
You said speculation is not good for genuine enthusiasts, I would disagree with that. If the best version of the car is only ever going to be worth 3-4 figures why restore or maintain it?
'Traditionally' classic car ownership has always been about passion outweighing value. Once that balance flips, then it ceases to be a hobby.The value of ETypes over time is a fair example of how passion wanes as values decline and how it grows with values. The key is that if you apply excess money supply as per at the end of the 80s and then post 2008 then the effect is amplified even more strongly than declining or limited supply which at a certain point normally stifles value and demand outside of anomalous examples.
sisu said:
This guy has over 900 Nissan Figaros in the US, is he a speculator or an enthusiast? A good guy or a bad guy?
Er...a fruit loop...? But, on the plus side, he's just upped the high water mark here, I'm obviously not trying hard enough 
- off to the classifieds then, if someone could print this & hand it to the investigating officer, I suspect I'm about to wind up under the patio...((Nissan Figaro's though...? Really? Lacks ambition, I feel...)
DonkeyApple said:
Doofus said:
sisu said:
You said speculation is not good for genuine enthusiasts, I would disagree with that. If the best version of the car is only ever going to be worth 3-4 figures why restore or maintain it?
'Traditionally' classic car ownership has always been about passion outweighing value. Once that balance flips, then it ceases to be a hobby.The value of ETypes over time is a fair example of how passion wanes as values decline and how it grows with values. The key is that if you apply excess money supply as per at the end of the 80s and then post 2008 then the effect is amplified even more strongly than declining or limited supply which at a certain point normally stifles value and demand outside of anomalous examples.
DonkeyApple said:
Try and hoard equity in a listed company and see what crops up to stop you. Likewise with trying to corner a market or acting in consort with others to do so.
? You trigger a takeover offer? Warren Buffet has done very well hoarding equity in Coca Cola etc, and often just does go for a takeover (GEICO)havoc said:
I thought fraud WAS criminal?
Or is this a case of a civil prosecution being brought because the CPS decided not to bother (i.e. not certain of winning)?
This was the first (public) case against Hood and was launched before Charme discovered the wider fraud. This is the first case to settle. The comments from Alvarez & Marsal indicate that this is the tip of the iceberg. I'd presume either the A&M or Charme proceedings will be somewhat heavier in nature.Or is this a case of a civil prosecution being brought because the CPS decided not to bother (i.e. not certain of winning)?
Would also expect some form of issue around the d/d - Charme used the right firms and JD was already audited by PWC. No doubt they'll have insurance cover against fraud but Hood hood'winked (!) a whole range of people.
I've nearly got to the end of this judgement and Tuke does come across as naïve (AC Aceca!) but, ultimately, savvy enough. Interesting to see where they go to retrieve the cash - the Hood's certainly had the assets...
wisbech said:
DonkeyApple said:
Try and hoard equity in a listed company and see what crops up to stop you. Likewise with trying to corner a market or acting in consort with others to do so.
? You trigger a takeover offer? Warren Buffet has done very well hoarding equity in Coca Cola etc, and often just does go for a takeover (GEICO)sisu said:
This guy has over 900 Nissan Figaros in the US, is he a speculator or an enthusiast? A good guy or a bad guy?
Neither. He's a dealer who has/had 120ish with the intention of selling them:https://jalopnik.com/inside-the-most-amazing-japan...
It looks like he may have managed to sell about erm....7:
https://www.duncanimports.com/vehicles/jdm?q%5Bmak...
ettore said:
... JD was already audited by PWC.
This isn't the only case recently to highlight what little an "audit" actually means. See Mike Lynch, Autonomy and the battle with HPE and the up coming extradition hearing as the US are after him for fraud and wish him to join the ex CFO Sushovan Hussein in jail. Their accounts has all been signed off by auditors too, Deloitte this time.Many of DonkeyApples comments yesterday probably apply here too.
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