JD Classics, what have they been up to?
Discussion
Many of the worst ones are genuine Etonians who have no tattoos. They rely on people mistakenly assuming that a gentleman cannot be a crook.
Offshore financial services centres are indeed full of crooks, but each year the main ones get more tightly regulated and the crooks are forced out. Cayman, the BVI, Bermuda, and the Channel Islands are not squeaky clean yet, but they are a lot cleaner than they were twenty years ago. The crooks head off to Dubai, Mauritius, and even to sketchy places such as Nevis, the Cook Islands, and the Marshall Islands. One of the sketchiest is still Delaware. USA! USA! USA!
Offshore financial services centres are indeed full of crooks, but each year the main ones get more tightly regulated and the crooks are forced out. Cayman, the BVI, Bermuda, and the Channel Islands are not squeaky clean yet, but they are a lot cleaner than they were twenty years ago. The crooks head off to Dubai, Mauritius, and even to sketchy places such as Nevis, the Cook Islands, and the Marshall Islands. One of the sketchiest is still Delaware. USA! USA! USA!
jeremyc said:
GoodOlBoy said:
I'm in the dark on this, could someone please explain ?
Your post was edited because it contained a potentially defamatory statement that Tuke had defrauded others. you said:
Others will now realise that they have been defrauded by Tuke too.
Rather ironic when I've been vociferous in supporting Mr Tuke in response to some of the unduly negative comments he's received (IMHO of course)
Edited by GoodOlBoy on Thursday 29th October 12:33
Breadvan72 said:
Many of the worst ones are genuine Etonians who have no tattoos. They rely on people mistakenly assuming that a gentleman cannot be a crook.
Offshore financial services centres are indeed full of crooks, but each year the main ones get more tightly regulated and the crooks are forced out. Cayman, the BVI, Bermuda, and the Channel Islands are not squeaky clean yet, but they are a lot cleaner than they were twenty years ago. The crooks head off to Dubai, Mauritius, and even to sketchy places such as Nevis, the Cook Islands, and the Marshall Islands. One of the sketchiest is still Delaware. USA! USA! USA!
So, that's why so many gin palace yachts that I've seen in various ports around the world are registered in Delaware! Offshore financial services centres are indeed full of crooks, but each year the main ones get more tightly regulated and the crooks are forced out. Cayman, the BVI, Bermuda, and the Channel Islands are not squeaky clean yet, but they are a lot cleaner than they were twenty years ago. The crooks head off to Dubai, Mauritius, and even to sketchy places such as Nevis, the Cook Islands, and the Marshall Islands. One of the sketchiest is still Delaware. USA! USA! USA!
Breadvan72 said:
havoc said:
I thought fraud WAS criminal?
Or is this a case of a civil prosecution being brought because the CPS decided not to bother (i.e. not certain of winning)?
Fraud is a criminal offence and also a civil wrong. This was not a civil prosecution, because there is no such thing. This was a civil claim for remedies arising from fraud. A criminal prosecution would involve related but not identical issues. The test for a prosecution is not certainty of winning. Or is this a case of a civil prosecution being brought because the CPS decided not to bother (i.e. not certain of winning)?
I make my customary lament about the failure of the British education system to teach people the basics of the UK's legal systems before people leave school.
As for my education in the legal system, that's entirely down to the media (in various forms), which goes a long way to explaining my lack of accuracy.
You'd almost think the government doesn't WANT people to know how the legal system works (or be able to use logic and critical reasoning - these appear long-absent from the curriculum too...).
As for the test for a prosecution not involving the likelihood of winning...are you sure about that? (in reality, I mean, not in principle)
How about this story of an encounter with JD Classics! I have never heard anything like it in my life:-
"Ha! I supped with that particular devil and had too short a spoon!
Lived fairly close to JD and after a minor nudge in my 69 OTS I chose them to give a repair estimate, as agreed with the insco. Brian ‘Zealia’ Wilkinson followed me down as I left it with JD just before Christmas 2011
Brian and I went back a couple of weeks later to pick up the car and they would not give it to me unless I gave them a grand right there for doing the insurance quote, plus they would charge me storage for every day it had been there if I resisted.
The insurers were as shocked as I was and had never seen anything like it but said they’d reimburse me. Needless to say, I took it elsewhere"
As regards the stories about the cars at JD, there are a lot to tell, especially about Jaguars, and the story about the Jabbeke car for one.
There is a certain dealer on the continent who claims to have the first RHD XK, and I just happen to have a copy of the original Jaguar log book, part of which is shown here. I think we are but two in the world who have this. The last page contains a lot of crucial information, including the change of engine and the new engine number. In my opinion the car is a fake, so I told the owner what I had and asked him if he would confirm the engine number for me. His reply was classic; "you tell me the number and I'll tell you if it is the real one". I may be green, but.........
"Ha! I supped with that particular devil and had too short a spoon!
Lived fairly close to JD and after a minor nudge in my 69 OTS I chose them to give a repair estimate, as agreed with the insco. Brian ‘Zealia’ Wilkinson followed me down as I left it with JD just before Christmas 2011
Brian and I went back a couple of weeks later to pick up the car and they would not give it to me unless I gave them a grand right there for doing the insurance quote, plus they would charge me storage for every day it had been there if I resisted.
The insurers were as shocked as I was and had never seen anything like it but said they’d reimburse me. Needless to say, I took it elsewhere"
As regards the stories about the cars at JD, there are a lot to tell, especially about Jaguars, and the story about the Jabbeke car for one.
There is a certain dealer on the continent who claims to have the first RHD XK, and I just happen to have a copy of the original Jaguar log book, part of which is shown here. I think we are but two in the world who have this. The last page contains a lot of crucial information, including the change of engine and the new engine number. In my opinion the car is a fake, so I told the owner what I had and asked him if he would confirm the engine number for me. His reply was classic; "you tell me the number and I'll tell you if it is the real one". I may be green, but.........
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 29th October 15:24
My neighbour breeds Pedigree Limousin bulls. A local prime cattle buyer said he had a customer looking for a bull and said to my neighbour 'Make sure you ask plenty or he will think it's not very good and he will have no clue whether it is or not.
He sold the bull easily at his best price of the year for his poorest bull. Is this good business or fraud?
He sold the bull easily at his best price of the year for his poorest bull. Is this good business or fraud?
stichill99 said:
My neighbour breeds Pedigree Limousin bulls. A local prime cattle buyer said he had a customer looking for a bull and said to my neighbour 'Make sure you ask plenty or he will think it's not very good and he will have no clue whether it is or not.
He sold the bull easily at his best price of the year for his poorest bull. Is this good business or fraud?
That depends on if he told any lies during the sale. If he sold a cow as a bull you would probably have a problem with the law. He sold the bull easily at his best price of the year for his poorest bull. Is this good business or fraud?
mph said:
jsf said:
That depends on if he told any lies during the sale. If he sold a cow as a bull you would probably have a problem with the law.
Unless of course the cow wanted to be known as a bull....Reckon its all a load of bullocks.
Thank you to those who have taken the time to enlighten us with their professional expertise. The legal judgment is a sober read indeed.
Regrettably, in a totally unregulated market, one suspects that the fudging of vehicle identity is fairly widespread. My reading of the judgement implies to me that the grinding off of the XK120 chassis numbers was probably carried out before JD Classics got hold of it, naturally they were then seeming happy to pass it on, even though one would have thought that an expert seller should have been aware of the issue.
I am always slightly surprised how the high end classic car dealers with glossy magazine adverts, with “POA” against their cars find buyers. To me, every pore of my body sees danger in the words “POA” - it smacks that the seller is seeing how much of a rip off can be perpetrated - not that there is anything at all illegal in seeking to maximise profit, as long as the product is honestly represented. I have only once looked at a car at a high end dealer (it was only an X350), I rapidly decided the guy was a shark trying to sell a slightly doggy example at an extreme top end price, with the aid of some lovely photos & purple prose, so I walked away.
Naturally, I am sure that there are good high end dealers, who are honourable and trustworthy as well.
So I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the plaintiff - if I were wealthy enough to have been doing what he was attempting to do, at this end of the market I would have been doing most of my buying at auction - naturally this involves waiting for appropriate cars to come up (impatience is the cause of so many financial mistakes), and of course is subject to price variability, but these public prices are actually the “market making prices”. I also noticed acknowledgment that the one or two of the cars that he purchased are now worth a lot more - if he has held onto some of the more valuable cars, even being ripped off on original purchase in 2010, should have resulted in a tidy profit by 2020, given the way that the market has moved... Did the pressure to litigate come from “Ruth”?
Regrettably, in a totally unregulated market, one suspects that the fudging of vehicle identity is fairly widespread. My reading of the judgement implies to me that the grinding off of the XK120 chassis numbers was probably carried out before JD Classics got hold of it, naturally they were then seeming happy to pass it on, even though one would have thought that an expert seller should have been aware of the issue.
I am always slightly surprised how the high end classic car dealers with glossy magazine adverts, with “POA” against their cars find buyers. To me, every pore of my body sees danger in the words “POA” - it smacks that the seller is seeing how much of a rip off can be perpetrated - not that there is anything at all illegal in seeking to maximise profit, as long as the product is honestly represented. I have only once looked at a car at a high end dealer (it was only an X350), I rapidly decided the guy was a shark trying to sell a slightly doggy example at an extreme top end price, with the aid of some lovely photos & purple prose, so I walked away.
Naturally, I am sure that there are good high end dealers, who are honourable and trustworthy as well.
So I don’t have a lot of sympathy for the plaintiff - if I were wealthy enough to have been doing what he was attempting to do, at this end of the market I would have been doing most of my buying at auction - naturally this involves waiting for appropriate cars to come up (impatience is the cause of so many financial mistakes), and of course is subject to price variability, but these public prices are actually the “market making prices”. I also noticed acknowledgment that the one or two of the cars that he purchased are now worth a lot more - if he has held onto some of the more valuable cars, even being ripped off on original purchase in 2010, should have resulted in a tidy profit by 2020, given the way that the market has moved... Did the pressure to litigate come from “Ruth”?
Edited by Car_Nut on Thursday 29th October 20:43
lowdrag said:
How about this story of an encounter with JD Classics! I have never heard anything like it in my life:-
"Ha! I supped with that particular devil and had too short a spoon!
Lived fairly close to JD and after a minor nudge in my 69 OTS I chose them to give a repair estimate, as agreed with the insco. Brian ‘Zealia’ Wilkinson followed me down as I left it with JD just before Christmas 2011
Brian and I went back a couple of weeks later to pick up the car and they would not give it to me unless I gave them a grand right there for doing the insurance quote, plus they would charge me storage for every day it had been there if I resisted.
The insurers were as shocked as I was and had never seen anything like it but said they’d reimburse me. Needless to say, I took it elsewhere"
As regards the stories about the cars at JD, there are a lot to tell, especially about Jaguars, and the story about the Jabbeke car for one.
There is a certain dealer on the continent who claims to have the first RHD XK, and I just happen to have a copy of the original Jaguar log book, part of which is shown here. I think we are but two in the world who have this. The last page contains a lot of crucial information, including the change of engine and the new engine number. In my opinion the car is a fake, so I told the owner what I had and asked him if he would confirm the engine number for me. His reply was classic; "you tell me the number and I'll tell you if it is the real one". I may be green, but.........
Issues like this and those in the judgement are why the FIA stopped issuing Heritage Certificates. There was a time when the FIA issued a Historic Technical Passport which provided the documentation as to the the spec of the car, you could also pay an extra fee which if approved, gave you a certificate that authenticated the car. "Ha! I supped with that particular devil and had too short a spoon!
Lived fairly close to JD and after a minor nudge in my 69 OTS I chose them to give a repair estimate, as agreed with the insco. Brian ‘Zealia’ Wilkinson followed me down as I left it with JD just before Christmas 2011
Brian and I went back a couple of weeks later to pick up the car and they would not give it to me unless I gave them a grand right there for doing the insurance quote, plus they would charge me storage for every day it had been there if I resisted.
The insurers were as shocked as I was and had never seen anything like it but said they’d reimburse me. Needless to say, I took it elsewhere"
As regards the stories about the cars at JD, there are a lot to tell, especially about Jaguars, and the story about the Jabbeke car for one.
There is a certain dealer on the continent who claims to have the first RHD XK, and I just happen to have a copy of the original Jaguar log book, part of which is shown here. I think we are but two in the world who have this. The last page contains a lot of crucial information, including the change of engine and the new engine number. In my opinion the car is a fake, so I told the owner what I had and asked him if he would confirm the engine number for me. His reply was classic; "you tell me the number and I'll tell you if it is the real one". I may be green, but.........
Edited by lowdrag on Thursday 29th October 15:24
That's a massive legal can of worms for the FIA, Jean Todt scrapped the Heritage Certificate and expanded the detail on the HTP, but that HTP is only showing the spec is correct for the period assigned to the car.
It's then left up to the various event organisers as to whether they accept cars that have HTP's but don't have proven heritage. Most organisers accept HTP only cars, some events require more proven provenance to gain an entry.
havoc said:
Thanks. OK, civil claim not civil prosecution...used the wrong wording.
As for my education in the legal system, that's entirely down to the media (in various forms), which goes a long way to explaining my lack of accuracy.
You'd almost think the government doesn't WANT people to know how the legal system works (or be able to use logic and critical reasoning - these appear long-absent from the curriculum too...).
As for the test for a prosecution not involving the likelihood of winning...are you sure about that? (in reality, I mean, not in principle)
Please do not misrepresent what I said. You referred previously to the CPPS applying a test of certainty of winning, not likelihood. The CPS considers whether there is a reasonable prospect of a prosecution being successful and also considers the public interest. If as you incorrectly suggested the CPS only proceeded with cases where winning was a certainty, there would be zero prosecutions.As for my education in the legal system, that's entirely down to the media (in various forms), which goes a long way to explaining my lack of accuracy.
You'd almost think the government doesn't WANT people to know how the legal system works (or be able to use logic and critical reasoning - these appear long-absent from the curriculum too...).
As for the test for a prosecution not involving the likelihood of winning...are you sure about that? (in reality, I mean, not in principle)
Edited by anonymous-user on Friday 30th October 04:38
Anyone have a photo of this one ?
Staggering the ££ profit made on this car. Surely Tuke did some homework before lashing out well over £200 grand for this ??
Assuming that it looked like this one ? url]
|https://thumbsnap.com/XkPvJBDy[/url]Edited by neutral 3 on Thursday 29th October 22:45
jsf said:
Issues like this and those in the judgement are why the FIA stopped issuing Heritage Certificates. There was a time when the FIA issued a Historic Technical Passport which provided the documentation as to the the spec of the car, you could also pay an extra fee which if approved, gave you a certificate that authenticated the car.
That's a massive legal can of worms for the FIA, Jean Todt scrapped the Heritage Certificate and expanded the detail on the HTP, but that HTP is only showing the spec is correct for the period assigned to the car.
I don't know about FIA Heritage certificates, but the Jaguar ones don't claim to prove your car is original (although there has been at least one owner arguing they do here on PH). JDHT don't do anything like inspect your car, you basically send them the details of the car and they check that against the factory records and confirm that the numbered parts match the records. If you did don't give a number or it's wrong then those numbers are missing from the certificate. They won't tell you what numbers you should have.That's a massive legal can of worms for the FIA, Jean Todt scrapped the Heritage Certificate and expanded the detail on the HTP, but that HTP is only showing the spec is correct for the period assigned to the car.
The wording on the certificate just says
"We certify that the following is an extract from an original Car Record Book:"
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