Are Jaguar "E" types overpriced?
Discussion
2xChevrons said:
You won't get any disagreement from me personally...
You said it yourself that the DS has glamour, but of a strange kind. Which is absolutely true. Just as most classic Citroens aren't typical 'Pistonhead' fodder, majoring as they do on completely isolating you from the experience of driving and just conveying you slowly but comfortably. I like Alex Moulton's summary:
"The first time I drove a D-Series I understood why the French were a nation of philosophers. Here was a car so comfortable, so stable but so slow that you could prop a book by Voltaire or Sartre in front of you on the steering wheel and read it as you drove from one end of France to the other."
The E-type's glamour is very obvious and emotional....
Roland Barthes wrote and entire essay on the DS and reckoned it was France's 20th century equivalent of a medieval cathedral:
"We are therefore dealing here with a humanized art, and it is possible that the DS marks a change in the mythology of cars. Until now, the ultimate in cars belonged rather to the bestiary of power; here it becomes at once more spiritual and more object-like, and despite some concessions to neomania (such as the empty steering wheel), it is now more homely , more attuned to this sublimation of the utensil which one also finds in the design of contemporary household equipment.The dashboard looks more like the working surface of a modern kitchen than the control room of a factory; the slim panes of matt fluted metal, the small levers topped by a white ball, the very simple dials, the very discreetness of the nickel-work, all this signifies a kind of control exercised over motion rather than performance. One is obviously turning from an alchemy of speed to a relish in driving."
Snipped purely for brevity - excellent post 2xChevrons, thankyou for that You said it yourself that the DS has glamour, but of a strange kind. Which is absolutely true. Just as most classic Citroens aren't typical 'Pistonhead' fodder, majoring as they do on completely isolating you from the experience of driving and just conveying you slowly but comfortably. I like Alex Moulton's summary:
"The first time I drove a D-Series I understood why the French were a nation of philosophers. Here was a car so comfortable, so stable but so slow that you could prop a book by Voltaire or Sartre in front of you on the steering wheel and read it as you drove from one end of France to the other."
The E-type's glamour is very obvious and emotional....
Roland Barthes wrote and entire essay on the DS and reckoned it was France's 20th century equivalent of a medieval cathedral:
"We are therefore dealing here with a humanized art, and it is possible that the DS marks a change in the mythology of cars. Until now, the ultimate in cars belonged rather to the bestiary of power; here it becomes at once more spiritual and more object-like, and despite some concessions to neomania (such as the empty steering wheel), it is now more homely , more attuned to this sublimation of the utensil which one also finds in the design of contemporary household equipment.The dashboard looks more like the working surface of a modern kitchen than the control room of a factory; the slim panes of matt fluted metal, the small levers topped by a white ball, the very simple dials, the very discreetness of the nickel-work, all this signifies a kind of control exercised over motion rather than performance. One is obviously turning from an alchemy of speed to a relish in driving."
I go through phases with E-Types but I've always had a soft spot for the early FHCs, ever since my uncle built the large scale (1/12th maybe?) Revell kit of it back in the '70s, painted metallic brown it looked fabulous and more than a little exotic next to his smaller scale Lola T70. A school mate's Dad had a ratty 2+2 in the mid '70s but I only saw it once, disappearing up the road in a cloud of blue smoke, it was spoken of in slightly hushed tones in the playground but was pretty much forgotten when someone brought in his newly acquired Italian exotica set of Top Trump cards.
My perfect E would be a S1 FHC in a dark colour with matching painted wires and maybe a red interior. Just the job!
Strela said:
I always thought it was straddling an unhappy line between classic and modern, which grates with the jawdropping understated extravagance of the exterior.
This is not good
But from this angle wot I have just found on the internet, I have to say it looks pretty classy
Suppose I ought to reserve judgement until I try one.
Are there many interiors which look as good from footwell level as from eyelevel?This is not good
But from this angle wot I have just found on the internet, I have to say it looks pretty classy
Suppose I ought to reserve judgement until I try one.
Strela said:
I always thought it was straddling an unhappy line between classic and modern, which grates with the jawdropping understated extravagance of the exterior.
I know what you mean, but saying that the insideof the SM doesn't quite reach the same heights of design perfection as the outside is scarcely a criticism. The top picture you chose doesn't really do it justice - bad angle, harsh lighting to emphasise the 1970-era plastics and flatten the surfaces and textures; not the best colour/trim combo either. The second pic is much better. As ghastly as it sounds in description, the best SM interior is the early one with velour seats in pea-soup green, green-tinged brightwork and exterior in "Feuille Dorée" or Lemon Yellow. It just fully embraces the Jetsons-futuristic wierdness of the car while also being very luxurious and high-end in an incredibly 1970s way. And I will forgive a lot of the SM cabin's failings because of 'that' gear lever.Strela said:
Setright waxed lyrical about them, though not without comparing them to the rest of Jaguar's range in an observation that has been mostly true right up to the present day: "Clearly pretentious heaps of cheaply made junk masquerading as high performance luxury cars, and ...commercially very successful because they attracted the sort of customers at whom they were aimed."
LJKS as acerbic...and correct, as ever! You don't have to spend long with a classic (or not so classic Jaguar) to realise how they were able to sell cars that could beat a BMW for handling and a Mercedes for ride quality at a third of the price - they're usually woefully badly made. Even (especially...) my beloved XJs. Just catching up with this thread after being away for a while. I can relate to Lowdrag's post of a few days ago.
At 13 years of age I remember dragging my father (in the family Vauxhall Victor) down to Horace Gould's showroom in Bristol in 1961 to see a red DHC. The reg number was 444NHT. Horace was a bit of a local hero being an ex-GP driver. I vowed to own an E-Type one day. I eventually owned 1E1737, 850342 and 877794 (when I lived in California). I'm not sure the pension could afford any of them now. Happy days.
At 13 years of age I remember dragging my father (in the family Vauxhall Victor) down to Horace Gould's showroom in Bristol in 1961 to see a red DHC. The reg number was 444NHT. Horace was a bit of a local hero being an ex-GP driver. I vowed to own an E-Type one day. I eventually owned 1E1737, 850342 and 877794 (when I lived in California). I'm not sure the pension could afford any of them now. Happy days.
Strela - I can see what you mean about the SM in a way, the same dash was used in LHD Maser Meraks too but I think it still looks the part in the SM all these years later.
The dashing middle aged blade who lives round the corner went past our gaff in his primrose yellow SIII E-Type about half an hour ago, the Wolfrace alloys it wears give it a very unusual look!
The dashing middle aged blade who lives round the corner went past our gaff in his primrose yellow SIII E-Type about half an hour ago, the Wolfrace alloys it wears give it a very unusual look!
As beautiful and fantastic E-types are, they are over priced IMO. But just as equally over priced are the parts; just look at how much these cost:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_t...
£499,00 for a pair of covered dashboards, and 134 quid for a passenger side dashboard panel?. Crazy prices.
I'd love to re-trim the interior of the E-type kit car I have, but at the prices it costs just for a few pieces of carpet or hardura, I think I'll have to leave the way it is.
https://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_t...
£499,00 for a pair of covered dashboards, and 134 quid for a passenger side dashboard panel?. Crazy prices.
I'd love to re-trim the interior of the E-type kit car I have, but at the prices it costs just for a few pieces of carpet or hardura, I think I'll have to leave the way it is.
Longnose said:
Just catching up with this thread after being away for a while. I can relate to Lowdrag's post of a few days ago.
At 13 years of age I remember dragging my father (in the family Vauxhall Victor) down to Horace Gould's showroom in Bristol in 1961 to see a red DHC. The reg number was 444NHT. Horace was a bit of a local hero being an ex-GP driver. I vowed to own an E-Type one day. I eventually owned 1E1737, 850342 and 877794 (when I lived in California). I'm not sure the pension could afford any of them now. Happy days.
Something that is going to do in the values of all of these cars is the average age of the owners and the simple fact that not only do the up and coming generations behind them have the wealth to buy these cars as the estates put them up for sale but judging by the cultural divide between ‘Millenials and Gammons’ they may not have any desire to own them? If rising interest rates don’t appear sooner to rebase values then average age of the current owners is going to. At 13 years of age I remember dragging my father (in the family Vauxhall Victor) down to Horace Gould's showroom in Bristol in 1961 to see a red DHC. The reg number was 444NHT. Horace was a bit of a local hero being an ex-GP driver. I vowed to own an E-Type one day. I eventually owned 1E1737, 850342 and 877794 (when I lived in California). I'm not sure the pension could afford any of them now. Happy days.
A typical owner may have owned their car for many years and paid a far lower amount for it as well as having had the income to run it and use it. What we do know is that the younger generations do not have the wealth to pay today’s values nor the income to run it.
DonkeyApple said:
...What we do know is that the younger generations do not have the wealth to pay today’s values nor the income to run it.
While that's very true for most young people it isn't universally true. There's no shortage of 20ish looking people driving around here in MwhatEver BMWs, Range Rovers and other very expensive motors, so there is clearly no shortage of disposable income for some.Strela said:
DonkeyApple said:
as the estates put them up for sale but judging by the cultural divide between ‘Millenials and Gammons’ .
Que? The usual clarity of your posts is absent here, for those of us who, to quote Withnail and I, "aren't from London."
You lost me at estates. I think you mean shooting brakes.
a8hex said:
DonkeyApple said:
...What we do know is that the younger generations do not have the wealth to pay today’s values nor the income to run it.
While that's very true for most young people it isn't universally true. There's no shortage of 20ish looking people driving around here in MwhatEver BMWs, Range Rovers and other very expensive motors, so there is clearly no shortage of disposable income for some.There simply isn’t the true wealth in the lower generations to purchase the chattels of the senior generation without values rebasing to meet the lower purchasing power.
And that’s still assuming they want those chattels. In this thread we’ve seen a fair few tales of people desiring a car because of a childhood memory. That demand has fuelled prices. The next potential owners won’t have childhood memories for these particular machines. They may even be paying up for Nintendo’s or whatever aspirational goods seized them in their childhood. Personally, I can see there being an awful lot less demand for cars like E-Types once the generation that grew up staring at them have passed.
And to add to that, we’ve all borne testament to the ‘massive celeb die-off’ of the last few years. But we all understand that this is nothing mystical but a mere matter of statistics and probabilities. The same will be true of the average historic car owner and that means that it’s not just demand that may fall but supply is catagorically going to increase at a growing rate from a relatively near point in the future. And excess supply of aspirational goods impacts negatively on demand any way.
DonkeyApple said:
That’s not exactly a sign of true wealth though. In the majority of cases it is just diverting monthly income away from property and savings (the two things that create true wealth) into financing a hobby.
There simply isn’t the true wealth in the lower generations to purchase the chattels of the senior generation without values rebasing to meet the lower purchasing power.
And that’s still assuming they want those chattels. In this thread we’ve seen a fair few tales of people desiring a car because of a childhood memory. That demand has fuelled prices. The next potential owners won’t have childhood memories for these particular machines. They may even be paying up for Nintendo’s or whatever aspirational goods seized them in their childhood. Personally, I can see there being an awful lot less demand for cars like E-Types once the generation that grew up staring at them have passed.
And to add to that, we’ve all borne testament to the ‘massive celeb die-off’ of the last few years. But we all understand that this is nothing mystical but a mere matter of statistics and probabilities. The same will be true of the average historic car owner and that means that it’s not just demand that may fall but supply is catagorically going to increase at a growing rate from a relatively near point in the future. And excess supply of aspirational goods impacts negatively on demand any way.
This is possibly already happening with pre war stuff. Bugattis, Mercs and Silver Ghosts aside, I don't see any appeal in a 1932 Pratt and Harbinger 20/35 2 seater dicky seat open body sports tourer with a Torvyl & Dene coach built body. This stuff is already been ignored in museums as old crocks whilst the kidz look at seventies Ferraris. Post war is as old as I'd want to go, Minors, Zephyrs and big Wolseleys. But you wonder who will look after these cars in 20 years time when there's nobody old enough to remember them.There simply isn’t the true wealth in the lower generations to purchase the chattels of the senior generation without values rebasing to meet the lower purchasing power.
And that’s still assuming they want those chattels. In this thread we’ve seen a fair few tales of people desiring a car because of a childhood memory. That demand has fuelled prices. The next potential owners won’t have childhood memories for these particular machines. They may even be paying up for Nintendo’s or whatever aspirational goods seized them in their childhood. Personally, I can see there being an awful lot less demand for cars like E-Types once the generation that grew up staring at them have passed.
And to add to that, we’ve all borne testament to the ‘massive celeb die-off’ of the last few years. But we all understand that this is nothing mystical but a mere matter of statistics and probabilities. The same will be true of the average historic car owner and that means that it’s not just demand that may fall but supply is catagorically going to increase at a growing rate from a relatively near point in the future. And excess supply of aspirational goods impacts negatively on demand any way.
iSore said:
This is possibly already happening with pre war stuff. Bugattis, Mercs and Silver Ghosts aside, I don't see any appeal in a 1932 Pratt and Harbinger 20/35 2 seater dicky seat open body sports tourer with a Torvyl & Dene coach built body. This stuff is already been ignored in museums as old crocks whilst the kidz look at seventies Ferraris. Post war is as old as I'd want to go, Minors, Zephyrs and big Wolseleys. But you wonder who will look after these cars in 20 years time when there's nobody old enough to remember them.
I think there will always be a market but I can’t’ per se, see the next generations giving them the same monetary value. Anglia Auctions have a few E-types today and their estimates are not that dear. As regards future values, when I was at the Barratt Jackson auction 10 years ago they were saying that 1950s cars would start to fall as that generation died. On the contrary, they have more than doubled. The E-type has always been considered a style icon, so perhaps it is one car that will remain in the comparative stratosphere, but prices have come off their highs of a year or so back.It has to be an exceptional outside lock early car to command high prices now. But markets are funny things; no one knows when the bell will ring.
lowdrag said:
Anglia Auctions have a few E-types today and their estimates are not that dear. As regards future values, when I was at the Barratt Jackson auction 10 years ago they were saying that 1950s cars would start to fall as that generation died. On the contrary, they have more than doubled. The E-type has always been considered a style icon, so perhaps it is one car that will remain in the comparative stratosphere, but prices have come off their highs of a year or so back.It has to be an exceptional outside lock early car to command high prices now. But markets are funny things; no one knows when the bell will ring.
Ten years ago they turned on QE and triggered the greatest Western asset inflation and currency debasing program in history. Such has been the power of this debasement of currency and the inflation of assets that the Austin Allegro has 5-10 fold against the GBP.
But Western QE is ending, interest rates are rising (forget base rates, look at how the overleveraged retail chains are failing to refinance as corporate debt costs are rising). Money is increasing in value after a decade of decreasing.
The generation that was behind the one you mention dying off were the Boomers, the largest and most wealthiest group of humans that have ever lived in the planet. Their buying power dwarfs anything that has gone before and we will see again for a long time. They had the excess wealth to make the decision to retain or buy the assets of the deceased. If we put this in very base terms just looking at the common man and forgetting the business and pension wealth of this demographic, when they inherited their parent’s house they had already bought and paid for their own home and so this new wealth was excess wealth etc.
What we are staring at today is a very different set of conditions. The generations following behind don’t have properly or overly funded pensions, they don’t have enormous property equity, they don’t have low to zero debt to income ratios. They don’t have the same investment or leisure concepts either. They don’t have the space to keep large assets. And they aren’t stating currency debasement in the face but instead the rising costs of true debt and its implications.
We are looking at a hugely different mindset, priorities and wealth between generations and it is almost impossible for this enormous socio-economic difference to not trigger a change in markets such as classic cars. What this will Be is obviously hugely open to guessing but the least likely scenario is for things to remain as they are. If QE continues to be cut and debt rates continue to strengthen then its impossible for asset values to grow or remain static and that’s before we even consider that in the U.K. many estates that incorporate high value classics cars will see huge amounts of wealth removed from the system via IHT.
So if the current economic trend continues over the next decade or so we will see a big change.
Looking at ETypes you may even see weird things like the younger generations preferring the later V12s over the models more synonymous with a generation they are keen not to identify with. You may find they want to rip out those dirty 6 pot kitten killers and fit battery packs and electric motors!!!
Whatever it is I think we will see a huge cultural change to how all assets are regarded and valued as the Boomer generation passes to Gen X and the Millenials.
The advantage that the E-Type has over Local Heros, as I call them, is that some have managed to get into the international league of classics.
So while local demand for classics may wane, other territories may well take up the slack as they look for interesting things to do with their money.
So while local demand for classics may wane, other territories may well take up the slack as they look for interesting things to do with their money.
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