Electrifying Classic Cars

[Escapegoat]

bigdog3 said:

Wonder what you are doing to cause all these engine problems? Perhaps in your case an electric motor is the best solution

And there we go, another potentially (geddit?) useful PH thread eventually turns into ad homs when the overly religious run out of arguments.

Answer this one question: why do you think Toyota's warranty for the ICE is much shorter than for the electrical drivetrain?

(And this being the Toyota that is famed for building reliable ICEs.)

[Peter3442]

I’ll own up that I’m not exactly in favour of EVs for anything other than local/city use. I would encourage more hybrid. I don’t think we have the generating capacity to support them if we are replacing all liquid hydrocarbon consumption with pure electric. Also, the economics are in some ways misleading as a large part of the cost of running an IC car is tax. Undoubtedly, the government will still want that money and tax something else, probably EVs once most of the IC cars have disappeared.

I have a friend who has worked with his son to convert a 1999 Toyota Corolla all to their own design. The father and son are professional engineers, mechanical and electrical. The conversion is a success. The son uses the car for his daily commute to work and reliability has been very good. The economics have broken even. The biggest problems were waiting for special/one-off mechanical components. It has instant torque from zero speed, so you have to be a bit gentle off the line to protect the rest of the drive train.

I agree that a lot of the character of an old car is in the engine. I am in favour of upgrading engines and would never rule out an A or B series to Rover V8 swap or an XK6 to AJ16. However, DVLA don’t seem to agree with me. I fear that such swaps may (if not now then soon in the future) give DVLA an excuse to claim a vehicle has lost its identity or at least its historic status. There are get outs for changes that are good or can be passed off as good for the environment or safety and I guess that would apply to EV conversions.

So, would I convert my Jaguar Mk2 from IC to EV? Only if very severely pushed.

[DonkeyApple]

You raise an interesting point there, I wonder what you need to do to keep the tax status? Typical conversions currently don’t change anything but the engine so should be fine but if you end up changing enough to warrant a breach, what is the mechanism for claiming the tax benefits under the current EV legislation?

[lowdrag]

Escapegoat said:

HMG expects the market to sort out plentiful charging points.

(TBH, there are BH weekends when I decide not to travel at all - not even train bus replacement service.)

You do as you wish, but the question hasn't been answered. To start with the question was based on the problems in France. It would require a vast expansion of the parking areas and charging points to install enough supply for these "black" periods, periods which for the majority of the year will remain unused. Will people need to think of taking two days to get home instead of one? And the same for the outward journey? Please reply to the question, and do not make fascetious comments.

[DonkeyApple]

lowdrag said:

You do as you wish, but the question hasn't been answered. To start with the question was based on the problems in France. It would require a vast expansion of the parking areas and charging points to install enough supply for these "black" periods, periods which for the majority of the year will remain unused. Will people need to think of taking two days to get home instead of one? And the same for the outward journey? Please reply to the question, and do not make fascetious comments.

But why is anyone going to buy an EV if it doesn’t fit their needs?

[bigdog3]

singlecoil said:

I'm getting tired of your attempts to provoke me. If you have nothing useful to say on this thread you should cease posting on it. You've already made your position clear.

Oh dear, my heart bleeds

[bigdog3]

Escapegoat said:

Answer this one question: why do you think Toyota's warranty for the ICE is much shorter than for the electrical drivetrain?

(And this being the Toyota that is famed for building reliable ICEs.)

Because electrical powertrains subjected to the rigourous Toyota Product Development Process are likely to be more durable than their ICE equivalents, allowing Toyota to extend warranty period without risking high claims. Or possibly it's a marketing gimmick but that's doubtful.

But that's not the topic of this thread. Discussion here relates to electrical powertrains installed in old cars by semi-professionals at best and rank amateurs at worst. Neither is likely to result in satisfactory durability or reliability. The development process has hardly been initiated.

[Johnspex]

singlecoil said:

Johnspex said:

An MGBGT with an electric motor is just an MGBGT shaped box with most of the character sucked out. What's the point of that?

The nasty engine was one of the worst features of the MGB and GT. Another pre-war design engine pressed into service because it was the only one the makers had access to.

But if it hasn't got an ICE , if not the original type but at least an ICE of some sort, it isn't an MGB , any more, is it?
It might as well be a Nissan Leaf or something. It would just be a modern car (in part) in an old dress. Unless one happens to think the particular classic is the best looking thing ever made I just don't see the point.

[singlecoil]

Johnspex said:

singlecoil said:

Johnspex said:

An MGBGT with an electric motor is just an MGBGT shaped box with most of the character sucked out. What's the point of that?

The nasty engine was one of the worst features of the MGB and GT. Another pre-war design engine pressed into service because it was the only one the makers had access to.

But if it hasn't got an ICE , if not the original type but at least an ICE of some sort, it isn't an MGB , any more, is it?
It might as well be a Nissan Leaf or something. It would just be a modern car (in part) in an old dress. Unless one happens to think the particular classic is the best looking thing ever made I just don't see the point.

I think an MGB with an electric motor and batteries would be an MGB with an electric motor and batteries. If you see it as something different that would be ok by me, after all, there are some people who like football and even go and watch it.

To me whatever provides the motive force for a car, especially an old car like an MGB or a Triumph Dolomite is a very small part of the experience.

[a8hex]

bigdog3 said:

Don't corrupt the classics, just get a modern ...

All sorts of people modify classic cars for all sorts of reasons, so where would you draw the line?
I had an XK150, I put in an uprated Jaguar XK engine, is that acceptable? It was still a Jaguar XK straight six.
While doing that I had an overdrive greatbox fitted as my particular 150 didn't have one fitted. The beefier 4.2 engine ate the overdrive unit and I ended up fitting a 5speed gearbox, is this acceptable? It massively changed the characteristics of the car. The original Moss box required a lot of thought and care to use. I used to love the feeling of the gears meshing as you slotted the box into 2nd just so it would slide into first. I loved the care needed when changing down. These were key elements of the XK's personality. Yet a great many owners whimp out and put a modern style gearbox in them.
When I first considered selling the 150 I was advised to switch to radial tyres. I'd always loved the way the crossplies hunt around and follow features of the road surface. Switching over to radials made driving the car much easier, but fundamentally altered the cars 1950's characteristics, yet a great many owners decide to go for an easy life.
I'd not countenance swapping out the XK engine, but why should this be unacceptable while changing the gearbox, or tyres or fitting power steering, or fitting disc brakes to 120s and 140s which are frequently done without people wanting to berate the owners?

[NDNDNDND]

singlecoil said:

To me whatever provides the motive force for a car, especially an old car like an MGB or a Triumph Dolomite is a very small part of the experience.

This attitude is more typical of a non-enthusiast car owner, for whom cost and practicality are paramount.

among classic and enthusiast car owners, your view is that of an extreme minority.

[singlecoil]

NDNDNDND said:

singlecoil said:

To me whatever provides the motive force for a car, especially an old car like an MGB or a Triumph Dolomite is a very small part of the experience.

This attitude is more typical of a non-enthusiast car owner, for whom cost and practicality are paramount.

among classic and enthusiast car owners, your view is that of an extreme minority.

Can you prove that you speak for the majority? I thought not. You are simply projecting your own opinion and claiming that others share it.

[a8hex]

NDNDNDND said:

singlecoil said:

To me whatever provides the motive force for a car, especially an old car like an MGB or a Triumph Dolomite is a very small part of the experience.

This attitude is more typical of a non-enthusiast car owner, for whom cost and practicality are paramount.

among classic and enthusiast car owners, your view is that of an extreme minority.

So which bits of a Doli would you feel are OK to change?

[bigdog3]

There is always a challenging car project in my workshop and I was wondering how we would approach electrifying a classic car.

Just installing an electric motor, control equipment and battery pack into an old car poses significant engineering and development challenges. Finding sufficient space for batteries providing usable range, won't be easy.

But why not go down the path manufacturers take - the "top hat" solution? Use the whole platform from a crashed EV, cut off the top hat from the old car (external bodywork which maintains classic aesthetics) and mate the two together. Gives the best of both worlds - classic appearance combined with modern powertrain and chassis specifically engineered for electric traction. Would even benefit from "safe" FWD dynamics

[DonkeyApple]

a8hex said:

All sorts of people modify classic cars for all sorts of reasons, so where would you draw the line?
I had an XK150, I put in an uprated Jaguar XK engine, is that acceptable? It was still a Jaguar XK straight six.
While doing that I had an overdrive greatbox fitted as my particular 150 didn't have one fitted. The beefier 4.2 engine ate the overdrive unit and I ended up fitting a 5speed gearbox, is this acceptable? It massively changed the characteristics of the car. The original Moss box required a lot of thought and care to use. I used to love the feeling of the gears meshing as you slotted the box into 2nd just so it would slide into first. I loved the care needed when changing down. These were key elements of the XK's personality. Yet a great many owners whimp out and put a modern style gearbox in them.
When I first considered selling the 150 I was advised to switch to radial tyres. I'd always loved the way the crossplies hunt around and follow features of the road surface. Switching over to radials made driving the car much easier, but fundamentally altered the cars 1950's characteristics, yet a great many owners decide to go for an easy life.
I'd not countenance swapping out the XK engine, but why should this be unacceptable while changing the gearbox, or tyres or fitting power steering, or fitting disc brakes to 120s and 140s which are frequently done without people wanting to berate the owners?

The other aspect to consider is that we are the generation that had fun and found pleasure from sticking bigger or more modern engines into old cars, culminating in the entire RestoMod industry. The generation behind us is going to want to be doing the same but with the kit of their time and that’s going to be big electric motors rather than big V8s.

And arguably what will fuel much of it will be the collapse in classic values as the generation above us pass away and across the whole of the West the market is flooded with classics that the younger generation can not afford to buy at current prices.

The people I hear most discussing classic EVs are the chaps twenty years younger than me in the City who want a classic car for local pottering but don’t want to be pumping out a load of exhaust fumes. And they have the money to make to it happen.

[Henry_b]

Not a fan myself.

I watched A video on Utube of a RRC that had been converted.

It looked good but to get over 140mi range they had to cut up the boot floor and raise it up removing about 25% of boot space.

The front end was packed with batteries aswell+motors and it weighed so much they had to put Police spec springs on it to make it level and it couldn't tow!


I thought eh the conversion 3 grand 4 maybe??!

Nope...

50k!!!

Yep to make a RRC effectively worthless they spunked 50k into it!


And with all those batteries in the front i can imagine a crash would be interesting?!


Personally a Classic car is all about the fragility and fettling, if you disagree then you don't get it!

With all the doom and gloom you all talk about, there is a new Pez station being built near me and most new cars are Petrol/ICE = Hybrid so tbf petrol will be around for a good while yet..

And..

The new Electric Jag XJ will be getting a Petrol hybrid variant in the future so eh?

E10 is set to be rolled out next year/


No hint of EV in the commercial sector either in regards to HGV's and LGV's and tbf 4x4's themselves aren't really EV yet..


I'm all for it in the cities but imo leave the minority alone..

If pez disappears overnight pfft you can run a classic quite happily on LPG alone..

But thats a worst case if you want the engine..

Or..

Move to alaska lol

[Johnspex]

NDNDNDND said:

singlecoil said:

To me whatever provides the motive force for a car, especially an old car like an MGB or a Triumph Dolomite is a very small part of the experience.

This attitude is more typical of a non-enthusiast car owner, for whom cost and practicality are paramount.

among classic and enthusiast car owners, your view is that of an extreme minority.

ll




If you had a Supermarine Spitfire and put a modern jet engine in it then it wouldn't really be a Spitfire anymore, would it? It's as simple as that.

[singlecoil]

Johnspex said:

NDNDNDND said:

singlecoil said:

To me whatever provides the motive force for a car, especially an old car like an MGB or a Triumph Dolomite is a very small part of the experience.

This attitude is more typical of a non-enthusiast car owner, for whom cost and practicality are paramount.

among classic and enthusiast car owners, your view is that of an extreme minority.

ll

If you had a Supermarine Spitfire and put a modern jet engine in it then it wouldn't really be a Spitfire anymore, would it? It's as simple as that.

How about if you took a Triumph Spitfire and put a Dolomite Sprint engine in it, would it be that not be a Spitfire anymore too?

You might think so, but to me it would be a Triumph Spitfire with a Dolomite Sprint engine in it. Simple as that.

Your position is untenable, manufactured items don't suddenly become something else just because one or more of the parts have been changed.

[a8hex]

singlecoil said:

How about if you took a Triumph Spitfire and put a Dolomite Sprint engine in it, would it be that not be a Spitfire anymore too?

You might think so, but to me it would be a Triumph Spitfire with a Dolomite Sprint engine in it. Simple as that.

Your position is untenable, manufactured items don't suddenly become something else just because one or more of the parts have been changed.

That was a mod people did while the Spitfire was still in production, the forum in the workshop at a place I used to work ran one. I remember him saying it was lighter than the original lump and provided a little more poke too.

[eccles]

DonkeyApple said:

a8hex said:

All sorts of people modify classic cars for all sorts of reasons, so where would you draw the line?
I had an XK150, I put in an uprated Jaguar XK engine, is that acceptable? It was still a Jaguar XK straight six.
While doing that I had an overdrive greatbox fitted as my particular 150 didn't have one fitted. The beefier 4.2 engine ate the overdrive unit and I ended up fitting a 5speed gearbox, is this acceptable? It massively changed the characteristics of the car. The original Moss box required a lot of thought and care to use. I used to love the feeling of the gears meshing as you slotted the box into 2nd just so it would slide into first. I loved the care needed when changing down. These were key elements of the XK's personality. Yet a great many owners whimp out and put a modern style gearbox in them.
When I first considered selling the 150 I was advised to switch to radial tyres. I'd always loved the way the crossplies hunt around and follow features of the road surface. Switching over to radials made driving the car much easier, but fundamentally altered the cars 1950's characteristics, yet a great many owners decide to go for an easy life.
I'd not countenance swapping out the XK engine, but why should this be unacceptable while changing the gearbox, or tyres or fitting power steering, or fitting disc brakes to 120s and 140s which are frequently done without people wanting to berate the owners?

The other aspect to consider is that we are the generation that had fun and found pleasure from sticking bigger or more modern engines into old cars, culminating in the entire RestoMod industry. The generation behind us is going to want to be doing the same but with the kit of their time and that’s going to be big electric motors rather than big V8s.

And arguably what will fuel much of it will be the collapse in classic values as the generation above us pass away and across the whole of the West the market is flooded with classics that the younger generation can not afford to buy at current prices.

The people I hear most discussing classic EVs are the chaps twenty years younger than me in the City who want a classic car for local pottering but don’t want to be pumping out a load of exhaust fumes. And they have the money to make to it happen.

The restomod thing certainly isn't the norm, and I expect it takes up a tiny percentage of classics out there. Much the same as city types wanting to convert a classic to electric, I bet the real numbers are tiny, and certainly not a generational thing.