Electrifying Classic Cars
Discussion
a8hex said:
singlecoil said:
How about if you took a Triumph Spitfire and put a Dolomite Sprint engine in it, would it be that not be a Spitfire anymore too?
You might think so, but to me it would be a Triumph Spitfire with a Dolomite Sprint engine in it. Simple as that.
Your position is untenable, manufactured items don't suddenly become something else just because one or more of the parts have been changed.
That was a mod people did while the Spitfire was still in production, the forum in the workshop at a place I used to work ran one. I remember him saying it was lighter than the original lump and provided a little more poke too. You might think so, but to me it would be a Triumph Spitfire with a Dolomite Sprint engine in it. Simple as that.
Your position is untenable, manufactured items don't suddenly become something else just because one or more of the parts have been changed.
Henry_b said:
Not a fan myself.
I watched A video on Utube of a RRC that had been converted.
It looked good but to get over 140mi range they had to cut up the boot floor and raise it up removing about 25% of boot space.
The front end was packed with batteries aswell+motors and it weighed so much they had to put Police spec springs on it to make it level and it couldn't tow!
I thought eh the conversion 3 grand 4 maybe??!
Nope...
50k!!!
Yep to make a RRC effectively worthless they spunked 50k into it!
And with all those batteries in the front i can imagine a crash would be interesting?!
Personally a Classic car is all about the fragility and fettling, if you disagree then you don't get it!
With all the doom and gloom you all talk about, there is a new Pez station being built near me and most new cars are Petrol/ICE = Hybrid so tbf petrol will be around for a good while yet..
And..
The new Electric Jag XJ will be getting a Petrol hybrid variant in the future so eh?
E10 is set to be rolled out next year/
No hint of EV in the commercial sector either in regards to HGV's and LGV's and tbf 4x4's themselves aren't really EV yet..
I'm all for it in the cities but imo leave the minority alone..
If pez disappears overnight pfft you can run a classic quite happily on LPG alone..
But thats a worst case if you want the engine..
Or..
Move to alaska lol
The client went fully to town on that one, using all new parts and wanted a 200 mile range. The springs bit is a bit of red herring also as it just uses the heavy duty option from the later Disco 1 at the back. I watched A video on Utube of a RRC that had been converted.
It looked good but to get over 140mi range they had to cut up the boot floor and raise it up removing about 25% of boot space.
The front end was packed with batteries aswell+motors and it weighed so much they had to put Police spec springs on it to make it level and it couldn't tow!
I thought eh the conversion 3 grand 4 maybe??!
Nope...
50k!!!
Yep to make a RRC effectively worthless they spunked 50k into it!
And with all those batteries in the front i can imagine a crash would be interesting?!
Personally a Classic car is all about the fragility and fettling, if you disagree then you don't get it!
With all the doom and gloom you all talk about, there is a new Pez station being built near me and most new cars are Petrol/ICE = Hybrid so tbf petrol will be around for a good while yet..
And..
The new Electric Jag XJ will be getting a Petrol hybrid variant in the future so eh?
E10 is set to be rolled out next year/
No hint of EV in the commercial sector either in regards to HGV's and LGV's and tbf 4x4's themselves aren't really EV yet..
I'm all for it in the cities but imo leave the minority alone..
If pez disappears overnight pfft you can run a classic quite happily on LPG alone..
But thats a worst case if you want the engine..
Or..
Move to alaska lol
Considering the Rangie only had 135bhp and sub 209 ftlbs for the V8 the single motor Leaf set up makes more sense and rather than using pretty much a full set of very expensive Tesla packs from an S and a pair of top end new motors, you can source replacement Leaf packs for a fraction of the cost.
As with most engine conversions a rather large part of the cost is the labour. A proper LS conversion of a Rangie wouldn’t be much cheaper. 15 years ago my LSE saw someone pay Overfinch well over £50k for their full conversion. His total spend was £110k. I bought it pretty much unused for £30k, spent £5k making it work properly and sold it for £45.
I stand corrected, the chap spent £80k on the conversion. The other £30k was on the sound system, which did seem to deliver Radio 4 with a little more base than I was used to.
https://www.bramley.com/carsales/details/Land-Rove...
It was still a Range Rover even without a Rover V8 engine.
Henry_b said:
I watched A video on Utube of a RRC that had been converted.
It looked good but to get over 140mi range they had to cut up the boot floor and raise it up removing about 25% of boot space.
The front end was packed with batteries aswell+motors and it weighed so much they had to put Police spec springs on it to make it level and it couldn't tow!
Could always run a smaller battery pack installed in the vehicle for local trips, allowing towing of a trailer carrying additional batteries when long range was needed. In effect, a non-ICE range extender It looked good but to get over 140mi range they had to cut up the boot floor and raise it up removing about 25% of boot space.
The front end was packed with batteries aswell+motors and it weighed so much they had to put Police spec springs on it to make it level and it couldn't tow!
Here's another Range Rover Classic conversion. Bloody fantastic!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4&li...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGjOY4JBmy4&li...
singlecoil said:
DonkeyApple said:
It was still a Range Rover even without a Rover V8 engine.
It's amazing how many people don't seem to be able to grasp that simple concept. My problem with electrifying classics isn't about puritanism, it's about FUN.
NDNDNDND said:
My problem with electrifying classics isn't about puritanism, it's about FUN.
Different people get their fun in different ways. Do you like football?lowdrag said:
Being way behind the game, what happens when you notify the DVLA of all the changes? Does the car have to go for an IVA test? What about road tax etc? And do insurers throw their hands in the air or welcome you with open arms?
Whether a car needs an IVA or not will depend on the extent of the changes, more info available from the DVLA. Simple conversion such as the Morris Minor featured at the start of this thread would not need one.Road tax situation is changing gradually, but AIUI it's very low for electric cars.
If you watch the video linked at the start of the thread you will hear that the insurance was raised slightly.
Electric cars, classics or otherwise, are all about matching the vehicle to the owner's requirements. I commute to work and go home for lunch, 4 journeys, total mileage approx 11 miles. An electric car would be ideal for me. Something like the aforementioned Triumph Dolomite with say a 60bhp motor attached to the existing gearbox would do me nicely. For my mileage only a relatively small battery pack would be needed.
singlecoil said:
Electric cars, classics or otherwise, are all about matching the vehicle to the owner's requirements. I commute to work and go home for lunch, 4 journeys, total mileage approx 11 miles. An electric car would be ideal for me. Something like the aforementioned Triumph Dolomite with say a 60bhp motor attached to the existing gearbox would do me nicely. For my mileage only a relatively small battery pack would be needed.
a 600bhp tesla sport engine would fit, just saying singlecoil said:
An electric car would be ideal for me. Something like the aforementioned Triumph Dolomite with say a 60bhp motor attached to the existing gearbox would do me nicely. For my mileage only a relatively small battery pack would be needed.
That's the situation where an all electric works very well and exactly what my friend did with the Corolla. The conversion requires a lot of mechanical and some body modification, more than an engine swap. Plus, our government and the DVLA don't seem to have a fixed plan of what they want. For those reasons, I feel it's better to convert something like the Corolla rather than a Dolly. For a classic, I'd certainly not go beyond electric assist or mild hybrid until the powers that be force us. Peter3442 said:
singlecoil said:
An electric car would be ideal for me. Something like the aforementioned Triumph Dolomite with say a 60bhp motor attached to the existing gearbox would do me nicely. For my mileage only a relatively small battery pack would be needed.
That's the situation where an all electric works very well and exactly what my friend did with the Corolla. The conversion requires a lot of mechanical and some body modification, more than an engine swap. Plus, our government and the DVLA don't seem to have a fixed plan of what they want. For those reasons, I feel it's better to convert something like the Corolla rather than a Dolly. For a classic, I'd certainly not go beyond electric assist or mild hybrid until the powers that be force us. In my case it's not about finding a way to keep a Dolomite on the road, it's about having an electric car for the reasons stated earlier, and enjoying a classic at the same time.
NDNDNDND said:
singlecoil said:
DonkeyApple said:
It was still a Range Rover even without a Rover V8 engine.
It's amazing how many people don't seem to be able to grasp that simple concept. My problem with electrifying classics isn't about puritanism, it's about FUN.
I agree 100% in your view that it isn’t about puritans and their extremism but all about fun. Fun comes from liberty, the puritans have a view as to what fun specificallynis and they seek to regulate and control an environment to force everyone to adhere to their belief.
Fun is subjective. What gives one person fun might not another, which is obviously why no one at all is stating that old cars should be converted to EV. It’s the role of the puritan to tell everyone what they should be doing. The general thrust has been that some classics might benefit from EV, giving a new experience and fun to some, whereas with other old cars it would seem a terrible waste. Someone earlier mentioned an Audi Quattro Turbo, that would strike me as an awful waste to convert to EV but there might be someone out there who is absolutely obsessed with the look and style of such a car but wants an electric drivetrain. I would struggle to understand them but it is their car, their life and their liberty and their subjective belief of what is fun.
If we go back to the 80s 2 door Rangie, just how much engine noise do you think you can hear inside a cabin that has next to no sound deadening and where you are sitting on top of the loudest two mechanical parts, the box and transfer case and these sounds reasonable up rather nicely but help drown out the noise from the wheelarches?
Besides, what is the defining character of the early RRC? As good as the RV8 is it is manifestly not the defining character of that car. I would argue that it only in fact gains real relevance in the later cars where sound deafening and improved drivetrain means that you can hear it and the whole fan set up gives it that iconic sound on pulling away or acceleration that everyone recognises. I think if you were to try and argue that in the early Rangies it is the engine that gives it its unique character people would think you were mad. It’s the iconic shape, the iconic ride, the iconic seating position, the agricultural sounds from the running gear. None of these are actually lost by fitting an electric motor.
And then we should move on to the Diesel engine that Leyland dropped into the Classic. An absolutely ghastly lump of powerless, soulless, clattering junk. Take a diesel powered Rangie and sling that engine in the bin and replace with an electric motor and you have vastly improved the vehicle. You’ve ditched the broken tractor noise and given it the torque of the V8.
Plus, you’ve got something that’s a bit better as a gun bus as you can move more quietly.
For me, I can see the fun in an electric Rangie. I could use it for all the local pottering with free electricity by slinging some panels on one of the roofs or in a field. I still have the look, ride and feel of an old Rangie but it would be a bit different from my others and it would be a good thing. It may not be considered fun by someone else but that’s because funnis subjective and a function as much as anything of our childhoods.
I have an old 2 door and chassis sitting a couple of miles away. Hmmm. LS3 with 6L box or a Nissan Leaf pull out.
On 12 August I posted this:
I'm wary of buying an off-brand or counterfeit battery or charger for my vape- due to the risk of, you know, inextinguishable Lithium fires and such.
That's only 2,500mAhAgree. Another point to consider is IVA https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/individ...
Quote
"You must apply for vehicle approval if you’ve:
built a vehicle
rebuilt a vehicle
radically altered a vehicle
reconstructed a classic vehicle
imported a vehicle"
The checks are to ensure that your vehicle meets C21 standards. Replacing the entire drive train (effectively engine/gearbox / axles suspension etc) would make your classic liable to IVA. And that opens a whole world of problems.
If an individual were to convert a car to EV you might 'slip it under the radar' so to speak. But once the first home converted EV is involved in an accident..........
For example a T35 Bugatti wouldn't meet any of todays standards. Nor would a Morris Minor.
Have a read through of the Kit Car section here on PHI offer no opinion as to the desirability of a classic car EV. But would just like to repeat the gist of the above post.
Whilst people are carrying out EV conversions on the quiet they may be circumnavigating the legislation but the moment a classic car EV conversion has an accident a whole can of worms will be flung open.
If you were simply to replace an ICE engine / petrol tank with a EV plus battery pack you might get away with it but to make a 'classic' car suitable for todays roads (suspension mods etc) I'm certain that a classic car EV conversion will need an IVA
Very few old car conversions would comply with the requirements. Its not just emissions its things like safety for pedestrians - an 'old' car just won't cut the mustard.
As I said, ask the kit car section about IVA.
alfaspecial said:
HustleRussell said:
Dave Hedgehog said:
companies will develop lower cost kits
Oh yeah, that'll be good! I'm wary of buying an off-brand or counterfeit battery or charger for my vape- due to the risk of, you know, inextinguishable Lithium fires and such.
That's only 2,500mAh
Quote
"You must apply for vehicle approval if you’ve:
built a vehicle
rebuilt a vehicle
radically altered a vehicle
reconstructed a classic vehicle
imported a vehicle"
The checks are to ensure that your vehicle meets C21 standards. Replacing the entire drive train (effectively engine/gearbox / axles suspension etc) would make your classic liable to IVA. And that opens a whole world of problems.
If an individual were to convert a car to EV you might 'slip it under the radar' so to speak. But once the first home converted EV is involved in an accident..........
For example a T35 Bugatti wouldn't meet any of todays standards. Nor would a Morris Minor.
Have a read through of the Kit Car section here on PH
Whilst people are carrying out EV conversions on the quiet they may be circumnavigating the legislation but the moment a classic car EV conversion has an accident a whole can of worms will be flung open.
If you were simply to replace an ICE engine / petrol tank with a EV plus battery pack you might get away with it but to make a 'classic' car suitable for todays roads (suspension mods etc) I'm certain that a classic car EV conversion will need an IVA
Very few old car conversions would comply with the requirements. Its not just emissions its things like safety for pedestrians - an 'old' car just won't cut the mustard.
As I said, ask the kit car section about IVA.
Dave Hedgehog said:
Massively improved performance and reliability, far better drivability, and can be used in low emission zones
Hardly futile
What makes people think that a converted classic will deliver improved reliability?Hardly futile
Nearly every engine conversion I've ever encountered comes with a healthy level of teething troubles which seam to last for years, still setting-up this, still adjusting that.... takes forever until a heathy compromise is found. And now we are expected to think that a conversion from IC to EV power in a classic will make the car ultra reliable, a conversion that will carry even more 'teething problems' due to the complete change in power unit.
Tesla are consistently the poorest performing manufacturer when it comes to reliability, yet we are expected to believe that a back-street conversion of their woeful technology into a aged classic will instantly cure all the unreliability associated with a simple petrol engine?
alfaspecial said:
If you were simply to replace an ICE engine / petrol tank with a EV plus battery pack you might get away with it but to make a 'classic' car suitable for todays roads (suspension mods etc) I'm certain that a classic car EV conversion will need an IVA
Why do you think an electric car would need suspension mods etc? Do you think the resultant car would be heavier that the same car with engine etc? And if so, by how much? Any other reasons for insisting it would need an IVA?What about the Morris Minor in the OP link?
singlecoil said:
alfaspecial said:
If you were simply to replace an ICE engine / petrol tank with a EV plus battery pack you might get away with it but to make a 'classic' car suitable for todays roads (suspension mods etc) I'm certain that a classic car EV conversion will need an IVA
Why do you think an electric car would need suspension mods etc? Do you think the resultant car would be heavier that the same car with engine etc? And if so, by how much? Any other reasons for insisting it would need an IVA?What about the Morris Minor in the OP link?
alfaspecial said:
Quote
"You must apply for vehicle approval if you’ve:
built a vehicle
rebuilt a vehicle
radically altered a vehicle
reconstructed a classic vehicle
imported a vehicle"
"You must apply for vehicle approval if you’ve:
built a vehicle
rebuilt a vehicle
radically altered a vehicle
reconstructed a classic vehicle
imported a vehicle"
singlecoil said:
alfaspecial said:
If you were simply to replace an ICE engine / petrol tank with a EV plus battery pack you might get away with it but to make a 'classic' car suitable for todays roads (suspension mods etc) I'm certain that a classic car EV conversion will need an IVA
Why do you think an electric car would need suspension mods etc? Do you think the resultant car would be heavier that the same car with engine etc? And if so, by how much? Any other reasons for insisting it would need an IVA?What about the Morris Minor in the OP link?
( total weight Tesla Model X = 2300kg, BMW series 5 1600kg)
The RR mentioned had suspension mods
According to the link I posted https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/individ... changing an power source would require an IVA
Changing the engine power source (ICE to EV) is a 'radically altered vehicle'.
You might get away with it but at some time there WILL be an accident 'caused' ( court action) by the conversion of a classic car.
And THEN legislation will crush the conversion business. IMHO
alfaspecial said:
Don't claim to be an expert but the battery pack on (say) a Tesla is pretty heavy.
( total weight Tesla Model X = 2300kg, BMW series 5 1600kg)
The RR mentioned had suspension mods
According to the link I posted https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/individ... changing an power source would require an IVA
Changing the engine power source (ICE to EV) is a 'radically altered vehicle'.
You might get away with it but at some time there WILL be an accident 'caused' ( court action) by the conversion of a classic car.
And THEN legislation will crush the conversion business. IMHO
Try this link for some info, in the shop section, on the weight of the necessary components for a conversion such as the one I have described.( total weight Tesla Model X = 2300kg, BMW series 5 1600kg)
The RR mentioned had suspension mods
According to the link I posted https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/individ... changing an power source would require an IVA
Changing the engine power source (ICE to EV) is a 'radically altered vehicle'.
You might get away with it but at some time there WILL be an accident 'caused' ( court action) by the conversion of a classic car.
And THEN legislation will crush the conversion business. IMHO
https://www.electricclassiccars.co.uk/
And if you read through your own links you will see that the engine only amounts to one point.
Edited by singlecoil on Tuesday 27th August 11:15
Conversion to EV isn't simple. There are a lot of components required: traction motor, traction motor control unit (including DC to 3-phase AC conversion), battery pack, structural support for the battery pack (batteries are heavy), traction motor operation circuitry, control of regenerative braking if you want to use it, DC to DC conversion and control of 12V circuit, emergency shut-offs (inertia and manual), vacuum pump for the braking system, electric power steering pump, battery pack charging system (mains to DC), integration with air-con system, earth leak detection, mechanical coupling of the traction motor to the existing gearbox (depending on what size motor you use) and drive train (keeping in mind that even a small electric motor produces huge torque from rest). And there's a major logistic problem of fitting it all in the existing space and maintaining a good weight distribution.
To be really independent, you may also want to install your own overnight charging system with a mass of solar panels the garage roof.
The Jaguar E-Zero system is reversible, but that probably means an expensive visit to JLR Classic Workshop type reversible. Their 'plug-in' is engineered to a cost beyond a hundred thousand pounds. In addition, they have the advantages of an excellent team of engineers. They are replacing a big and very heavy XK engine which makes things less difficult. Still their range is 125 miles - enough for commuting and a bit of fun, but not much more.
To be really independent, you may also want to install your own overnight charging system with a mass of solar panels the garage roof.
The Jaguar E-Zero system is reversible, but that probably means an expensive visit to JLR Classic Workshop type reversible. Their 'plug-in' is engineered to a cost beyond a hundred thousand pounds. In addition, they have the advantages of an excellent team of engineers. They are replacing a big and very heavy XK engine which makes things less difficult. Still their range is 125 miles - enough for commuting and a bit of fun, but not much more.
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