The cloudy future of the German Car industry gets worse..

The cloudy future of the German Car industry gets worse..

Author
Discussion

RDMcG

Original Poster:

13,801 posts

154 months

Thursday 19th September
quotequote all
https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-09...


Earlier in the year I drove a Panamera into Berlin, straight into a huge anti fossil fuel demonstration.
I am fairly convinced at this stage that very big changes are coming and one of the reasons I went to Germany at the time was to have another long series of trips to the tracks and of course, autobahn.

I do understand that thing are changing, which is fair enough. I very much doubt if the 20 year olds of today will want anything to do with ICE or even car ownership in general. It has been a brilliant ride for me, and of course I will enjoy it when I can. Maybe I will end up wth some kind fo EV in the future.

Life will go on.

JMBMWM5

1,686 posts

145 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
I have been lucky car wise and had most high performance cars, I have to agree youngsters of today will struggle if they want "performance" with petrol cars, I think 10 years from now and thats is EV....... I hate them by the way.

Dave Hedgehog

11,646 posts

151 months

Tuesday 1st October
quotequote all
please post more paywall links smile

nightflight

789 posts

164 months

Monday 14th October
quotequote all
This has probably been asked elsewhere, but if you're correct (I think you are), what will be the effect on future prices of todays high performance cars and some of the desirable modern classics ?

Dave Hedgehog

11,646 posts

151 months

Monday 14th October
quotequote all
nightflight said:
This has probably been asked elsewhere, but if you're correct (I think you are), what will be the effect on future prices of todays high performance cars and some of the desirable modern classics ?
large numbers of rare and desirable cars just sit in warehouses rarely if ever driven

for a long time fun / interesting and rare cars will still be desirable but to be used sparingly and for actual fun whilst daily duties are taken care of by eco boxes

eco pickup with trailer to track, plug it in, wiz around track in your polluting planet killer, trailer it home

cardigankid

7,630 posts

159 months

Wednesday 16th October
quotequote all
They haven’t yet built an battery driven electric car that is capable of taking the place of an ICE unit. Nor in my view will they ever. Beyond your fashion gurus, Joe 90 wannabes and ‘early adopters’ there isn’t a market for these things. People will not buy them en masse, despite all the propaganda. If a different technology, like hydrogen fuel cell, comes along, I’m open minded, but they have been trying to make the battery tech work for years with no serious success. Now Dyson, insofar as he was ever a serious player, has packed it, because it isn’t viable. Neither it is,

As far as fossil fuel demos are concerned, once kids are involved it is a sure sign of a con. And the Germans are immature when it comes to this kind of stuff. Therefore they are easy to brainwash, and that is why we are getting all this Greta Thunberg tripe. The day we are dictated to by demonstrations and mindless rabbles is the day democracy is finished. I’m quite sure that Extinction Rebellion is UK Government sponsored, the whole thing is just too slick, always in the right place at the right time with the right placards and plenty of people. We are supposed to be convinced that there is mass support for this, and everyone just goes along with it like a bunch of nodding Churchill dogs.

I treasure my ICE vehicles, and when it is not possible to use them in the UK, then it’s cheerio UK.

nightflight

789 posts

164 months

Thursday 17th October
quotequote all
I went to my local Porsche dealer recently, and I was told that by 2025 Porsche will only be selling electric cars. I find this surprising , but if that's the case, then we will forced into these electric vehicles against our will. It will still take years for for the petrol powered stuff to disappear just by natural wastage. We need to enjoy it while we can, and look forward to showing the grandchildren what we used to do.

cardigankid

7,630 posts

159 months

Thursday 17th October
quotequote all
Mark my words, we are turning into a nation of robots, governed by plebiscite and orchestrated mass demonstration, with children subject to relentless one sided unreasoning propaganda. It's like the early stages of Nazi Germany.

'First they came for the car owners.....' as Bonhoeffer might have said.

Which politically exposed victim group is next?

And we, the Great British have become a nation of nodding Churchill dogs, Yes-Men, compliant sheep, ironically wearing t-shirts with slogans like 'Dare to be Different!'. Is this what Britain fought the Second World War for? It's hard to believe it is the same country.

As far as I am concerned they can stick their electric Porsches so far up their back passages that they can clean the headlights with their toothbrushes. I can't believe I am alone in that.

Technological revolution, like the Wheel, like the Bronze Age, like the Iron Age, like Steam, like the Horseless Carriage, happened because the new technology was so much better than the old that the old was redundant. These were big revolutions that affected many people. This is not the same. The 'new' (actually rather older) technology of electric drive was tried many times and found inadequate. That is why it has never been adopted. It is not better, it is demonstrably worse, nor is it in any way environmentally friendly, but we are to be forced into it because particular interest groups and their three and sixpenny politicians tell us its for our own good. And we are all supposed to adopt the Emperor's New Clothes so we can feel good about ourselves and get praise from our puppetmasters. Because that is all most of us are, puppets who do as we are told even when that means saying black is white.

All the car manufacturers are to be forced to spend many tens of billions to produce rubbish most of us don't want to buy. Who will cover their losses this time?

This is the result of political ‘correctness’. Companies do not what is commercially viable but what the politicians tell them to do. Whole industries spring up not because they serve a real need, but because the government is prepared to throw huge sums of money (our money, incidentally) at them. That is the real legacy of Tony Blair and that halfwit bully Gordon Brown. Then they crow about their successes, which are totally contrived. They fund their pet projects, and become the country's biggest customer, acting surprised when everyone agrees with them. Of course they agree with them, the customer is always right. The whole economy is rigged. And when the money runs out, as it inevitably does, because politicians are not business people, they quietly walk away, the companies are left to sink, while the politicians move on to the House of Lords. And this country, on that basis, is going to compete in the world as a trading nation? Trading what, hot air - its the only commodity we have loads of? Pull the other one.


Edited by cardigankid on Sunday 20th October 15:02

eAyeAddio

45 posts

27 months

Wednesday 23rd October
quotequote all
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.

An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......

And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......

There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.

CrgT16

654 posts

55 months

Wednesday 23rd October
quotequote all
I think it’s a change of mentality. New generations do not have the same interest in cars as older ones. I am not old but all my peers couldn’t wait to get a driving licence and cars were very much an interesting and enthusiastically discussed subject. So because of that I enjoy manual gearboxes, petrol engines with all their imperfections, sounds and smells.

If you don’t really care about that than an electric car looks great on paper, fast, “clean” and will take you A-B with the same efficiency that a modern smartphone makes a call. The speed and acceleration are certainly there and if you are not n enthusiast... well its pretty cool. Probably feels a different age car compared to the old ICEs.

For me the main benefit of an electric car are improving air quality in city centres. they may or not be more environmentally friendly over their lifespan but I really haven’t researched enough to know.

I can see the appeal but for the time being I will enjoy my ICE and will probably buy a white goods electric carriage at some point if battery tech develops a bit more.

wisbech

1,182 posts

68 months

Wednesday 23rd October
quotequote all
Electric propulsion is objectively better than ICE. Max torque from zero RPM, can have individual motor per wheel, quiet, lower maintenance. There’s a reason that when the energy storage issue is solved, as it has been for trains/ trams, electric motors are used. (Diesel electric or electrified lines)

Heck, the QE aircraft carrier is electric powered.


LuS1fer

35,433 posts

192 months

Wednesday 23rd October
quotequote all
eAyeAddio said:
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.
Thus far, all electric cars are uninspired or ugly, especially the Taycan.
I have no issue with electric cars, bar them being a bit white goods - I like gearboxes.
My issues with electric cars are their cost - I can't afford one - their longevity in terms of battery life because while they depreciate like any car, you never know if a full charge is going to be available, down the line.

Finally, you can't just scrap a few million cars to accommodate a change to electricity, that's hardly green.

Dave Hedgehog

11,646 posts

151 months

Wednesday 23rd October
quotequote all
LuS1fer said:
Finally, you can't just scrap a few million cars to accommodate a change to electricity, that's hardly green.
it will happen naturally, a number of cars are bought each year, there are then many levels of second hand cars traded at different price points based on age and mileage, then a number of cars will be scrapped each year due to being uneconomical to repair due to failed parts or damage

Political policy is to incentivise buyers to purchasing BEV cars rather than ICE cars (except in germany where it is to support the creating and selling of giant diesel SUV's) , if all new car buyers purchased BEVs only it would still be 10-15 years before 95% of the current 30 mill+ uk personal car fleet was replaced.

and we are not buying 100% new BEVs only 1-2%, the transition is going to be a very long and slow process


QuantumTokoloshi

4,003 posts

164 months

Wednesday 23rd October
quotequote all
wisbech said:
Heck, the QE aircraft carrier is electric powered.
Not quite the same thing, when you use fossil fuels to generate electricity, that is like calling a coal fired powered station "electric".

wisbech

1,182 posts

68 months

Wednesday 23rd October
quotequote all
QuantumTokoloshi said:
wisbech said:
Heck, the QE aircraft carrier is electric powered.
Not quite the same thing, when you use fossil fuels to generate electricity, that is like calling a coal fired powered station "electric".
It is. The electric motor is what makes it electric. Can be powered by an onboard ICE, like a train or a Chevy Bolt carrying its own genset

ICE power delivery is poor compared to induction motors - which is why they need the added complexity and cost of gear boxes.

Mazda are trying to use rotary engines as the genset - might be better than a normal engine (small and light, and as running at one rpm only, fewer problems)


cardigankid

7,630 posts

159 months

Friday 1st November
quotequote all
eAyeAddio said:
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.

An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......

And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......

There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
Wrong question and consequently wrong answer.

Porsches aren't all about acceleration and top speed. The damn thing weighs 2,380kg, i.e. more than a Bentley Continental. It won't handle. Colin Chapman (remember him?) was right - add lightness - we are adding weight which cannot possibly be the way forward. And so far as range, charging time and battery life is concerned, friends of mine who have owned Teslas tell a rather different story to the one you suggest.

I can't charge one of these things outside my flat, even if I wanted to, nor at work. It is said to be cheaper to run, and maybe just now it is. But if we get to the point, which I seriously doubt, where EV's are in the majority, you can bet that the Government will slap massive taxes on car charging and it won't be cheaper at all.

You are the one who needs to wake up.

Instead of slinging easy mob chants like 'Climate change denier' around, you need to look at the facts. You are not looking at the implications of battery manufacture, at battery life, or the implications of battery disposal. You think people are going to pay a huge premium for a briefly fashionable but impractical technology? You're wrong. We are only facing this wave of electric car development and propaganda through political and regulatory pressure, nothing else. The big manufacturers are saying that openly. Autocar talk about 'the supremacy of the battery powered vehicle' in their latest issue (in discussion about hydrogen fuel cell, in my opinion a far more suitable technology). There is no such thing. I doubt if there are 1% of the cars on the road in the UK battery powered. That is only supremacy in the eyes of a fantasist. I cancelled my subscription rather than take any more of this nonsense.

The harsh reality, or should I say, the 'inconvenient truth' in the words of that political carpetbagger Al Gore, is that beyond inner city bubble taxis, the technology doesn't work and the show is only being kept on the road though public funding. How are heavy vehicles going to work? how are ships going to work? How are building sites and heavy plant going to work? How are aircraft going to work? Who is doing anything about deforestation, or container recycling, or waste processing, which are real environmental issues? You have no idea, not the remotest clue, yet you are dancing around calling people Climate Change Deniers.

Can you begin to understand how Soviet Russia, or the GDR, or Nazi Germany worked? Exactly like this. The truth is what the politicians say it is and no one is allowed to argue. Now, because our politicians have become so arrogant and surrounded by sycophants, they think that they can make anything happen, we are in exactly the same position.



mikeiow

1,717 posts

77 months

Friday 1st November
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
They haven’t yet built an battery driven electric car that is capable of taking the place of an ICE unit. Nor in my view will they ever.

<stuff>

I treasure my ICE vehicles, and when it is not possible to use them in the UK, then it’s cheerio UK.
Well, you are a classic 'petrolhead' who cannot see the wood for the trees!

I too love ICEs.....but having now got a KonaEV on the driveway, it has blown me away.
MOST people don't drive frequent 300+ mile journeys. MOST people have daily journeys under 40 miles.
Our Kona will give well over 200 miles in pretty well all conditions, closer to 260+ in summer.....& at normal speeds. If you get into hypermiling, fair play, but we drive it like all other cars.
Fuel is around 1/5th the price - never visit a petrol station again (unless doing one of those 200+ mile trips, obviously).
Yes, the things are ludicrously expensive (perhaps 10K above a 'normal' ICE equivalent), but often with more tech - the Kona EV is MILES ahead of a KONA ICE!
Yes, the UK infrastructure is....embryonic......but the first long weekend I had away in it was around 500 miles to deepest darkest mid-Wales, & cost me a tenner in 'fuel'!!
Acceleration is great - a very quick hot hatch feel to it - & handling isn't as bad as you suggest - obviously they are heavy....but the weight is very low.

& yes, a HUGE number of people do not have the ability to charge at home.....this is not something that will change overnight: this is a multi-year transition.
For anyone able to have two-cars, now is a great time to leap in - ours is now the "go-to" motor.

cardigankid said:
eAyeAddio said:
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.

An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......

And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......

There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
Wrong question and consequently wrong answer.

Porsches aren't all about acceleration and top speed. The damn thing weighs 2,380kg, i.e. more than a Bentley Continental. It won't handle. Colin Chapman (remember him?) was right - add lightness - we are adding weight which cannot possibly be the way forward. And so far as range, charging time and battery life is concerned, friends of mine who have owned Teslas tell a rather different story to the one you suggest.

I can't charge one of these things outside my flat, even if I wanted to, nor at work. It is said to be cheaper to run, and maybe just now it is. But if we get to the point, which I seriously doubt, where EV's are in the majority, you can bet that the Government will slap massive taxes on car charging and it won't be cheaper at all.

You are the one who needs to wake up.
What eAyeAddio said.
ICEs will ultimately be relegated to track day fun. Many years away, yes, & sorry to break it to you, but those who cannot see advantages in EVs are the blinkered luddites of this generation!

borcy

512 posts

3 months

Friday 1st November
quotequote all
I thought I'd read some thoughts about EV, but likening the sale of them to some sort of nazi/stasi state oppression. Bizarre, that's some real mental gymnastics to get there.

Lt. Coulomb

26 posts

1 month

Friday 1st November
quotequote all
Good riddance.

aeropilot

18,898 posts

174 months

Friday 1st November
quotequote all
cardigankid said:
eAyeAddio said:
I just don't get why some people are so opposed to electric cars......... Have you seen the performance figures for the Porsche Taycan?.......... They are astonishing.

An all-electric Taycan is the only car capable of out-performing (0 - 60 mph) my motorbike at sub 3 secs ......

And surely there are no complaints about it's top-speed?........ Even it's range and a battery recharge time of 80% in 20 mins. is perfectly acceptable......

There is no shortage of climate-change deny-ers on this forum and it's time they woke up to the harsh realities of life - the days of petrol / diesel powered cars are finished and the sooner they accept it the better it will be for all.
Wrong question and consequently wrong answer.

Porsches aren't all about acceleration and top speed. The damn thing weighs 2,380kg, i.e. more than a Bentley Continental. It won't handle. Colin Chapman (remember him?) was right - add lightness - we are adding weight which cannot possibly be the way forward. And so far as range, charging time and battery life is concerned, friends of mine who have owned Teslas tell a rather different story to the one you suggest.

I can't charge one of these things outside my flat, even if I wanted to, nor at work. It is said to be cheaper to run, and maybe just now it is. But if we get to the point, which I seriously doubt, where EV's are in the majority, you can bet that the Government will slap massive taxes on car charging and it won't be cheaper at all.

You are the one who needs to wake up.

Instead of slinging easy mob chants like 'Climate change denier' around, you need to look at the facts. You are not looking at the implications of battery manufacture, at battery life, or the implications of battery disposal. You think people are going to pay a huge premium for a briefly fashionable but impractical technology? You're wrong. We are only facing this wave of electric car development and propaganda through political and regulatory pressure, nothing else. The big manufacturers are saying that openly. Autocar talk about 'the supremacy of the battery powered vehicle' in their latest issue (in discussion about hydrogen fuel cell, in my opinion a far more suitable technology). There is no such thing. I doubt if there are 1% of the cars on the road in the UK battery powered. That is only supremacy in the eyes of a fantasist. I cancelled my subscription rather than take any more of this nonsense.

The harsh reality, or should I say, the 'inconvenient truth' in the words of that political carpetbagger Al Gore, is that beyond inner city bubble taxis, the technology doesn't work and the show is only being kept on the road though public funding. How are heavy vehicles going to work? how are ships going to work? How are building sites and heavy plant going to work? How are aircraft going to work? Who is doing anything about deforestation, or container recycling, or waste processing, which are real environmental issues? You have no idea, not the remotest clue, yet you are dancing around calling people Climate Change Deniers.

Can you begin to understand how Soviet Russia, or the GDR, or Nazi Germany worked? Exactly like this. The truth is what the politicians say it is and no one is allowed to argue. Now, because our politicians have become so arrogant and surrounded by sycophants, they think that they can make anything happen, we are in exactly the same position.
Well said.