Time to stop plugging classics as investments?
Discussion
lowdrag said:
I'm afraid that I tend to look rather at the other side of the coin. I would, nor could, imagine at the turn of this century that the world would change so quickly. Will our progeny actually be driving cars in 20 years? Will indeed there be petrol stations in the vicinity to fuel them, mechanics to service them, and spare parts available to keep them running? I think that everyone knows that my speciality is Jaguars, and we are very well served as regards any spares we need, but, as times change, will we be able to buy tyres, buy - I don't know - wiper blades - for example? These are just a few of my fears for the future, a future I shall not be here to see it must be said, but nevertheless something people will have to face. So what will become of my cars? Museums - if they exist still - will be stuffed with cars given away by families who have no idea what else to do with them. For who will buy them? Take my E-type; one can say that it is rare, being a 1961 car, but on the other side of the coin it is but only one E-type of 72,000 made. Taken in that context it is hardly rare, now is it?
I have always used and driven my cars because I love the sensations, love the sounds of fury, the raw behaviour compared to our computer-controlled modern transports, but I have never thought of them as investments - ever. They are my hobby, my piece of the past, my youth, and my joy. I am getting older, and physically slowly failing, so I drive the cars less than I used to, but just the fact, on a cold but sunny morning like today, to open the garage and to see them there is worth more than gold, because I see not just art forms, but memories, friendships, friends now passed, rallies, hill climbs, track days, and memories that money can't buy.
But my kids can't. My memories will die with me and so perhaps will my cars.
What a superb post.I have always used and driven my cars because I love the sensations, love the sounds of fury, the raw behaviour compared to our computer-controlled modern transports, but I have never thought of them as investments - ever. They are my hobby, my piece of the past, my youth, and my joy. I am getting older, and physically slowly failing, so I drive the cars less than I used to, but just the fact, on a cold but sunny morning like today, to open the garage and to see them there is worth more than gold, because I see not just art forms, but memories, friendships, friends now passed, rallies, hill climbs, track days, and memories that money can't buy.
But my kids can't. My memories will die with me and so perhaps will my cars.
I've never owned anything as nice as those fabulous Jaguars, but even so I can empathize with the sentiments created with cars. Picking up the to-be Mrs.T66 the very first time in my old rotten Vauxhall Cavalier ("Urgh, it smells rotten in here". I replied "no wonder - the f
king car's rotten..."). My beloved black 2.0 Capri unexpectedly (yeah, I know now..) fishtailing down a snowy country road, and the brakes overheating coming down Hardknott Pass in the Lake District making for a very hairy descent, a summer blast up to Croft race circuit across the Dales in my Puma and a stop-only-for-fuel 12-hour drive in my old KA all the way to Torridon via Applecross... and that's without all the Goodwood Revivals, Oulton Park visits, etc.etc.Perhaps we are the last generation that will see cars as glamorous and exciting, and something to be desired and coveted.
MikeT66 said:
What a superb post.
I've never owned anything as nice as those fabulous Jaguars, but even so I can empathize with the sentiments created with cars. Picking up the to-be Mrs.T66 the very first time in my old rotten Vauxhall Cavalier ("Urgh, it smells rotten in here". I replied "no wonder - the fking car's rotten..."). My beloved black 2.0 Capri unexpectedly (yeah, I know now..) fishtailing down a snowy country road, and the brakes overheating coming down Hardknott Pass in the Lake District making for a very hairy descent, a summer blast up to Croft race circuit across the Dales in my Puma and a stop-only-for-fuel 12-hour drive in my old KA all the way to Torridon via Applecross... and that's without all the Goodwood Revivals, Oulton Park visits, etc.etc.
Perhaps we are the last generation that will see cars as glamorous and exciting, and something to be desired and coveted.
I don't believe we are - well, not wholly. Anyone who is my age (50) will have had a golden era when some new cars were really, really desirable. The original RS Cosworth, E30 M3's (and a lot of other BMW's besides) UR Quattros etc. We passed the driving test in an era where there were no fixed cameras and there were half as many cars on the roads and thus half as many idiots. I've never owned anything as nice as those fabulous Jaguars, but even so I can empathize with the sentiments created with cars. Picking up the to-be Mrs.T66 the very first time in my old rotten Vauxhall Cavalier ("Urgh, it smells rotten in here". I replied "no wonder - the f
king car's rotten..."). My beloved black 2.0 Capri unexpectedly (yeah, I know now..) fishtailing down a snowy country road, and the brakes overheating coming down Hardknott Pass in the Lake District making for a very hairy descent, a summer blast up to Croft race circuit across the Dales in my Puma and a stop-only-for-fuel 12-hour drive in my old KA all the way to Torridon via Applecross... and that's without all the Goodwood Revivals, Oulton Park visits, etc.etc.Perhaps we are the last generation that will see cars as glamorous and exciting, and something to be desired and coveted.
One things is for sure; I'm not alone in finding almost all new cars utterly forgettable. Apart from the odd V12 Ferrari there is nothing I want to even drive, let alone buy. In fact, what new car would I cross the road to look at? Nothing. I spoke to a few young guys at the NEC last month who had E30 325i's that cost more than a lightly used 4 year old M3.
At the NEC I ogled over a beige 1968 Mini Mark II on a dealer stand. The second I opened the door, I was greeted by that whiff - BMC vinyl, old carpets and it took me back a good 45 years to my youth. I guess that is what we are buying. I wanted to jump in and drive it, just for a couple of hours. Then it's back into whatever modern generic s
tbox we have as a daily. I think old cars will go the way of the Kodak camera, FM radios and VHS tapes. Classics have survived because the internal combustion engine has powered machines for the last 120 years. There will be a big push for electric automation to clean up the dirty air and reduce congestion.
Once sentiment changes they will be of no use and their value will plummet. We have a few years to go until that point but ultimately once there are more sellers than buyers then prices will implode. Passion will be usurped by brutal economics.
There will still be a “scene” but once values fall we will see owners want to offload thus creating a bear market impoding vortex.
I love my small collection of classics but I can see the future. Also if a left leaning government get in then it really is game over. Classic owners are invariably more conservative and have grafted to obtain funds to get their dream car. The left hate that sort of person. The Tories (Alan Clark) introduced the rolling 40 year historic tax exemption. As soon as Labour got in they froze the rolling aspect. They utterly detest anyone who gets off their ar$e to get on in life. If you do, they will tax you to until your pips squeak.
Lowdrag is clinging to his dreams and there’s nothing wrong with that. But he’s a realist and can see the future. The golden age is long behind us now.
I just sold one car and the rest are going over the oncoming months. I’ll keep one or two..
Once sentiment changes they will be of no use and their value will plummet. We have a few years to go until that point but ultimately once there are more sellers than buyers then prices will implode. Passion will be usurped by brutal economics.
There will still be a “scene” but once values fall we will see owners want to offload thus creating a bear market impoding vortex.
I love my small collection of classics but I can see the future. Also if a left leaning government get in then it really is game over. Classic owners are invariably more conservative and have grafted to obtain funds to get their dream car. The left hate that sort of person. The Tories (Alan Clark) introduced the rolling 40 year historic tax exemption. As soon as Labour got in they froze the rolling aspect. They utterly detest anyone who gets off their ar$e to get on in life. If you do, they will tax you to until your pips squeak.
Lowdrag is clinging to his dreams and there’s nothing wrong with that. But he’s a realist and can see the future. The golden age is long behind us now.
I just sold one car and the rest are going over the oncoming months. I’ll keep one or two..
Edited by W11PEL on Thursday 5th December 13:56
Edited by W11PEL on Thursday 5th December 14:01
I’m not quite as pessimistic as W11, my outlook is that the next fe decades will see the rise and rise of EDV and hydrogen powered vehicles. ICE will of course be dead so far as new manufacture goes. But I do see a future for ICE classics in historic racing and privately owned cars for show and drive.These cars will be true classics, not the remains of hum drum 1.1 Ford whatever’s, Vauxhall 1.2 whatevers. True classics such as the E type jag, Lancia Delta’s, Escort cossie and such like.
Spares will be expensive and bespoke, fuel hugely expensive and Government will limit use of such cars on the road to certain days.
Unfortunately I will not be around to witness the wisdom or stupidity of my forecast, such is life
Spares will be expensive and bespoke, fuel hugely expensive and Government will limit use of such cars on the road to certain days.
Unfortunately I will not be around to witness the wisdom or stupidity of my forecast, such is life
crankedup said:
I’m not quite as pessimistic as W11, my outlook is that the next fe decades will see the rise and rise of EDV and hydrogen powered vehicles. ICE will of course be dead so far as new manufacture goes. But I do see a future for ICE classics in historic racing and privately owned cars for show and drive.These cars will be true classics, not the remains of hum drum 1.1 Ford whatever’s, Vauxhall 1.2 whatevers. True classics such as the E type jag, Lancia Delta’s, Escort cossie and such like.
Spares will be expensive and bespoke, fuel hugely expensive and Government will limit use of such cars on the road to certain days.
Unfortunately I will not be around to witness the wisdom or stupidity of my forecast, such is life
Few decades? If that was the case I’d be hugely optimistic. Certain elements of Europe are really going for old dirty cars. Spares will be expensive and bespoke, fuel hugely expensive and Government will limit use of such cars on the road to certain days.
Unfortunately I will not be around to witness the wisdom or stupidity of my forecast, such is life
Hopefully I’m going to be proved wrong.
W11PEL said:
Certain elements of Europe are really going for old dirty cars.
Hopefully I’m going to be proved wrong.
Apparently there is a big market for Lada and Moskvitch cars Hopefully I’m going to be proved wrong.
A ZIL I hear will be Boris's car after the election. All I known is one thing for sure. We'll not be hearing often - or at all - that wonderful statement "Gentlemen, start your engines".What's the worst case? Cars become like horses? Though, horses seem to be a very expensive hobby. At least cars don't need 'mucking out' (what ever that is, but it sounds nasty) or vets and other frequent attention. Maybe the horsey set will take up classic cars?
Like horses, other traffic will stop for us, pull their forelocks and get out of the way. We can go where we like and leave whatever environmentally unsavory mess behind without fear of criticism. Could be nirvana, but I'll not count on it.
Like horses, other traffic will stop for us, pull their forelocks and get out of the way. We can go where we like and leave whatever environmentally unsavory mess behind without fear of criticism. Could be nirvana, but I'll not count on it.
There will always be a market for the desirable classics, and there is always the option of selling them abroad, USA.
Most classics don't do many miles anyway. The valuable ones even less, funny thing is they are worth more for not being driven. This is the reason they will be allowed to survive, plus there is too much money in the industry not to.
In the short term I'm guessing popularity will reduce with a lot of lower value modern and ordinary classics dissapearing from the roads which will not get restored by you average man/woman. So yes stop plugging these.
Later on when cars are no longer the hot topic in pollution there will be a resurgence in classics with nostalgia, uniqueness and limited supply pushing values higher.
If you want to keep driving classics, get something fairly popular with parts available worldwide, and easy on fuel and you will be fine.
Most classics don't do many miles anyway. The valuable ones even less, funny thing is they are worth more for not being driven. This is the reason they will be allowed to survive, plus there is too much money in the industry not to.
In the short term I'm guessing popularity will reduce with a lot of lower value modern and ordinary classics dissapearing from the roads which will not get restored by you average man/woman. So yes stop plugging these.
Later on when cars are no longer the hot topic in pollution there will be a resurgence in classics with nostalgia, uniqueness and limited supply pushing values higher.
If you want to keep driving classics, get something fairly popular with parts available worldwide, and easy on fuel and you will be fine.
lowdrag said:
Mikee19 said:
If you want to keep driving classics, get something easy on fuel and you will be fine.
So we throw the Bentleys, Rolly Royces, Jaguars and most pre-war cars away? I get 15 mpg from one of mine.
clive_candy said:
Great thread.
In the same way the bottom fell out of the market for tobacciana, so the bottom will fall out of the market for classic cars?
Scary thought for the investors!
Try going to auctions for enamel advertising of the last century and you'll be surprised at the prices some things are fetching, including tobacco advertising. And the prices are sometimes eye-watering. I bid for one sign and lost out by £9,000!In the same way the bottom fell out of the market for tobacciana, so the bottom will fall out of the market for classic cars?
Scary thought for the investors!
https://www.xxxxantiques.com.au/antiques_collectab...
newsatten said:
If i light foot my Challenger i can get 15 mpg, if i drive properly i can get into single figures , my aim is to make my carbon foot print as close the the Shuttle as possible............
Currently saving my pennies to invest in a 600 cu Kieth Black Hemi ....................... lol
Good man. Currently saving my pennies to invest in a 600 cu Kieth Black Hemi ....................... lol
Keith Black Hemi..........marvellous idea
lowdrag said:
I bet you could:
There are Mondial's, and then there are Mondial's!: https://talacrest.com/Ferrari-Sales/Ferrari-500-Mo...
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/25502/
Celebrity owned, low miles, RHD F12 TDF sold for £605k
Great news if you bought one new at £350k (ish)
Not so good news, if you are the owner of the half a dozen RHD currently for sale at between £145k and £245k more.
But on the other side of the coin, talking classics, these two were certainly good value compared to a year or two ago:-
https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/jaguar-e-type...
https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/1962-jaguar-e...
https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/jaguar-e-type...
https://www.classiccarauctions.co.uk/1962-jaguar-e...
During 1972 we purchased our first home, a two bed post war semi bungalow in Essex. Cost £4250
+ £650 to build a bathroom onto the rear.
Wonder how much a good used early 1960’s E Type would have cost to purchase back then? Seems to indicate the classic car purchased as an investment a poor decision in. those terms only
of course.
+ £650 to build a bathroom onto the rear.
Wonder how much a good used early 1960’s E Type would have cost to purchase back then? Seems to indicate the classic car purchased as an investment a poor decision in. those terms only
of course.
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