Time to stop plugging classics as investments?

[Welshbeef]

LarJammer said:

He's not really done well, having lost £4.5m on a single car....
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/chris-ev...

You have to ask yourself unless he needed to cash out or simply the hit is pocket change why he wouldn’t sit on it and wait it out over a decade or so.


Also what was the Coburn engine issue?

[Castrol for a knave]

I see the market as follows;

1) The top end stuff has flown too close to the sun, and values have now fallen. Lesser models that followed in the wake, such as 348's etc are also seeing a correction

2) "Modern classics" are dementedly over priced - £12,000 for a Pug 309GTi?

3) In the middle, are the more everyday cars - the GTV's , Scimtar GTE's, GT6's, Stags etc, that have ticked up and will probably sit or maybe tick up a grand or two every coupe of years. They're affordable, many are under rated and there's churn because for many people a nice X19 or Wedge can be bought cash.

[Welshbeef]

The Ponzi scheme needs new money coming in.

I remember a few Ferrari meets I went to years ago and I was gobsmacked by the way owners were talking. It was this ones going next then that and actually the impression I had was by them if you were not on it or getting to then it was naive to not hop on and get the £’S

They were talking about frankly IMHO bangers of cars and ugly when new still ugly new Ferrari’s (as long as it has a V12 it’s going up).

Clearly I didn’t buy.

Revisiting those experiences reminds me of when in Tenerife I popped along for a “free drink” and it turned out to be a 1/3rd tepid beer to discover it was a timeshare setup. Again why are you not interested don’t you want to make money.
Later that evening one of the hotel guests had also clearly been dragged along .... however got carried away and signed on the dotted line! £70k for a timeshare she could unlikely afford and then reviewing the dates could simply never use it due to work/school commitments.
I digress

[Peter3442]

...and, in spite of the enormous (and rising) value of their cars, Ferrari 250 owners lament spending £1,000 for a set of Pirelli P4000s.

[Welshbeef]

Peter3442 said:

...and, in spite of the enormous (and rising) value of their cars, Ferrari 250 owners lament spending £1,000 for a set of Pirelli P4000s.

Given the miles those cars will do I’d wager the tyres will age last 6/7 years more if stored out of UV light.

Then again you don’t get wealthy splashing the cash about / being tight is a good

[dinkel]

Castrol for a knave said:

2) "Modern classics" are dementedly over priced - £12,000 for a Pug 309GTi?

Over here Alfa 916, 156, 147, 166 and such are up for grabs. Find a good one and hold it forever. Indication: between 2 and 3k euro for a great car. No one wants a Peb Beach example...

[Norfolkandchance]

dinkel said:

Castrol for a knave said:

2) "Modern classics" are dementedly over priced - £12,000 for a Pug 309GTi?

Over here Alfa 916, 156, 147, 166 and such are up for grabs. Find a good one and hold it forever. Indication: between 2 and 3k euro for a great car. No one wants a Peb Beach example...

The very expensive "modern classics" are extreme examples - very low millage / owners etc. Most modern classics, on the cusp of becoming "proper classics" are just old cars, with high mileages and tired bodywork and mechanicals. This doesn't mean they won't appreciate at some point, once the extreme ones have risen too far they will probably drag the others up, as we all are aware. But it could be a long time and I wouldn't see one as an investment. Having said that, anyone my age (mid 40's) will remember when sporty mk1 Escorts and genuine Mini Coopers were also just old cars which spent weeks up on ramps in front gardens.

But, my previous classic-competition-and-sometimes-drive-to-work-car was a MK1 Golf GTI. I did well out of that, price wise, though not as well as the prices some are advertised at. Today, my car in the same role is an EP3 Civic Type R. I've had it about 2 years. Its needed stuff doing because it is old. But I love it and I think it will at least hold its value.

I keep pointing out to my wife - If we bought me a brand new car it would cost £200 per month for something I didn't like, £300 for something I would like. We could afford this, but what I find difficult is at the end of the 3 years we'd spent £10k and have nothing to show for it. Plus it would be too valuable to risk on the track.

The Honda occasionally throws up a big bill, but it is averaging a far less than £200 per month and at the end of 3 years it should be worth at least the £2.5k I paid for it.

Did I also mention I love it!

[ettore]

Welshbeef said:

LarJammer said:

He's not really done well, having lost £4.5m on a single car....
https://www.ferrarichat.com/forum/threads/chris-ev...

You have to ask yourself unless he needed to cash out or simply the hit is pocket change why he wouldn’t sit on it and wait it out over a decade or so.


Also what was the Coburn engine issue?

He did very well because he traded it for a GTO that was then sold relatively quickly for a good chunk. Has had other sports racing Ferrari’s since..

[LotusOmega375D]

I expect John Collins at Talacrest has made more money out of handling Chris Evans’ cars than Chris ever has as owner.

[GG33]

I occasionally hanker after a classic, maybe something from the 70's, but I keep coming back to the thought that they were often uncomfortable, lacked performance and are just not that good to drive, so I end up sticking with my modern classics.

In 1975 when I started my love affair with cars, you could buy a slightly used 246 Dino for £1800. There was one just down the road from my office at the Chequered Flag in Chiswick. One my work colleagues offered me his mk2 E-Type convertible (BRG with chrome wires) for £500. It was up on axle stands at the time, needing new brakes. I declined, instead purchasing a Sunbeam Tiger, recently imported by my next door neighbour from Germany, for which I paid the princely sum of £380. The E-Type was definitely the one that got away. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

GG33

[ettore]

LotusOmega375D said:

I expect John Collins at Talacrest has made more money out of handling Chris Evans’ cars than Chris ever has as owner.

For the sense that the commercial relationship was closer than that.

[lornemalvo]

Ill informed TV presenters trying to make a dull show interesting don't help. I watched "modern wheels, classic steals" the other day. That Emo chap told an 18 year old student, who wanted a fast car, that a £5500 Subaru Impreza was a "guaranteed investment". Even if there is such a thing, which I doubt, He forgot to mention that it could also be a recipe for crippling repair bills. He owns 200 cars, apparently, so I thought he'd know better. The problem is that viewers, especially the less experienced, will believe this crap.

[Matty3]

GG33 said:

I occasionally hanker after a classic, maybe something from the 70's, but I keep coming back to the thought that they were often uncomfortable, lacked performance and are just not that good to drive, so I end up sticking with my modern classics.

In 1975 when I started my love affair with cars, you could buy a slightly used 246 Dino for £1800. There was one just down the road from my office at the Chequered Flag in Chiswick. One my work colleagues offered me his mk2 E-Type convertible (BRG with chrome wires) for £500. It was up on axle stands at the time, needing new brakes. I declined, instead purchasing a Sunbeam Tiger, recently imported by my next door neighbour from Germany, for which I paid the princely sum of £380. The E-Type was definitely the one that got away. Hindsight is a wonderful thing.

GG33

I recall viewing the most immaculate 246 Dino in Leicester, but he wouldn't budge from his asking price of £2,250 - his loss

[JD2329]

If the market is more enthusiast driven that has to be a good thing. Many, myself included, like both the older and newer stuff. If I was spending 40-50k I would not only be looking at 30-40 year old cars, I'd also be looking at those on the cusp of becoming 'classics' - DB9s, R8s, 996/997s, various M cars etc.

These are now getting very affordable, and their availability mean values are unlikely to rise.
That has to have an effect on the enthusiast market, including the older classics.

[soxboy]

Just looking at a back issue of Classic Cars from September 2006. In this ad in the back is an Alpine GTA previously referred to as a ‘Classic You Should Buy Now’, up at £9,950.



Is in next Anglia auction at £7-9k, clearly a great investment

https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/classic/saturday-2...

[lowdrag]

JD2329 said:

. If I was spending 40-50k I would not only be looking at 30-40 year old cars, I'd also be looking at those on the cusp of becoming 'classics' - DB9s, R8s, 996/997s, various M cars etc.

Can someone put there finger on just when what we used to call "an old car" became "on the cusp of being a classic?" We used to be laughed at for keeping an old car running in those days.

[Welshbeef]

soxboy said:

Just looking at a back issue of Classic Cars from September 2006. In this ad in the back is an Alpine GTA previously referred to as a ‘Classic You Should Buy Now’, up at £9,950.



Is in next Anglia auction at £7-9k, clearly a great investment

https://angliacarauctions.co.uk/classic/saturday-2...

But is it a great investment in happiness/memories /experiences/meeting your childhood car hero (rather than financial returns)

[classicaholic]

H&H prices seem down a lot, I suspect a few city boys might start bailing out soon.

How about this Ferrari for 30Khttps://online.handh.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/catalog/118/lot/45910/?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F118%2F

[lowdrag]

classicaholic said:

H&H prices seem down a lot, I suspect a few city boys might start bailing out soon.

How about this Ferrari for 30Khttps://online.handh.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/catalog/118/lot/45910/?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F118%2F

Seems from their site that most cars sold though. The prices will be on line in a day or two and then we can better judge.

[Elderly]

classicaholic said:

H&H prices seem down a lot, ..........

How about this Ferrari for 30Khttps://online.handh.co.uk/m/lot-details/index/catalog/118/lot/45910/?url=%2Fm%2Fview-auctions%2Fcatalog%2Fid%2F118%2F

Which meant that the vendor came away with a little under £28k.