Morris Marina - was it really that bad?
Discussion
We was mainly a Ford family... My first car was a Escort 1.3L.
Dad... Went to GLS Viva / Chevette / Cavalier route.
It interests me sometimes... If a lot of the BL products wore a Ford Badge ( or A.N. Other), would they have been more accepted.
It’s like the later Skodas where they covered the badges over... it went well but people’s attitudes changed after the reveal.
My brother had a Marina TC & a neighbour had a 1.3.
I have driven quite a few of BL cars too...
I have never actually driven a Marina... but done plenty of miles in the works Ital estate.
Dad... Went to GLS Viva / Chevette / Cavalier route.
It interests me sometimes... If a lot of the BL products wore a Ford Badge ( or A.N. Other), would they have been more accepted.
It’s like the later Skodas where they covered the badges over... it went well but people’s attitudes changed after the reveal.
My brother had a Marina TC & a neighbour had a 1.3.
I have driven quite a few of BL cars too...
I have never actually driven a Marina... but done plenty of miles in the works Ital estate.
Edited by Milkyway on Thursday 2nd December 21:19
Sticks. said:
aeropilot said:
You must be joking.
The Marina had a terrible interior, and was much worse than the same year Cortina 2.0GT I had before, and it was far from a solid feel. Comparing with an Escort is unfair as the Marina was supposed to be in the same class as the Cortina, not the Escort, which was Allegro class.
Having said that, the Escorts I had still had a better interior than the Marina, and my Marina was a TC, so top of the range ffs.
If it was a TC you're talking about the earlier model. I was comparing 1.3 T reg Escort and Marina. Allegro was Fiesta size wasn't it? The Marina had a terrible interior, and was much worse than the same year Cortina 2.0GT I had before, and it was far from a solid feel. Comparing with an Escort is unfair as the Marina was supposed to be in the same class as the Cortina, not the Escort, which was Allegro class.
Having said that, the Escorts I had still had a better interior than the Marina, and my Marina was a TC, so top of the range ffs.
Rob 131 Sport said:
They were bad. Try comparing a Mid Range 78 Marina to a Fiat 131 Supermirafiori 1.6 TC and you’ll see the difference.
I wouldn't. That wasn't my point. The Fiat was more up to date, more exciting, of course. But at the time, running costs, reliability and rust would've been issues. aeropilot said:
Panamax said:
Sticks. said:
I think it's the thing to bash the Marina, as you say, forgetting how bad other cars were in the 70s.
A decade newer than the MGB and yet people rave about the MGB as a classic. It's most odd.People similarly revile the TR7 although it was a decent car in its day.
The problem with the TR7 was yet again, BL doing it on the cheap and replacing a hairy chested fuel-injected straight 6 sport car, with a limp wristed, almost hairdressers car. Triumph were still making the Spitfire to cover that base, and it had the Stag further up the marketplace, but the TR7 was just too tame. It should have had the 16v Sprint engine in it from the beginning at least. I think that would have quashed a lot of the stigma that never left the TR7, even when they brought out the TR8, which by then was too late, and NA market only anyway.
Sprint engine was not emissions capable for the USA the TR7 main market.
V8 was not intended to be USA only but limited production capability of engines & gearboxs meant it went to where it could ear most money.
aeropilot said:
It was supposedly pitched between the two, as BL couldn't afford to develop a new competitor to the Escort and the Cortina, so sized it between the two....which seems really strange given the ADO16 was really Anglia/Escort sized and that was replaced by the Allegro.
The Maxi was out just before the Marina, which was Cortina sized, so why on earth did they even think they needed the Marina?
Size wise, the Marina was really only a competitor to the Hillman Avenger, which was also between the Escort and Cortina in size.
The Avenger was dynamically a much better car than the Marina in everyway.
This was a symptom of BMC and BL being hamstrung by the Mini.The Maxi was out just before the Marina, which was Cortina sized, so why on earth did they even think they needed the Marina?
Size wise, the Marina was really only a competitor to the Hillman Avenger, which was also between the Escort and Cortina in size.
The Avenger was dynamically a much better car than the Marina in everyway.
The Mini's tiny size was somewhat arbitrary, being dictated by Len Lord who wanted a four-seater car to compete against microcars and bubble cars. The extraordinary packaging provided by its design meant that it was smaller than a Ford 100E but offered more interior volume, while having better performance than the 1172cc Ford with only an 848cc engine.
When the Mini's blueprint was carried over and expanded into the ADO16 1100/1300, the same applied - the BMC car was physically smaller than the original Ford Cortina but had more cabin space and similar performance despite the Ford's engines being 1.2 and 1.5 litres. Rinse and repeat for the ADO17, the 1800, which was truly vast inside, offering the same functional role as a Zephyr/Zodiac but in a car with roughly the external dimensions of the Cortina and a 1.8 engine instead of a 2.5-litre one. The BMC FWD range was sensibly staggered within itself (Mini --> ADO16 --> ADO17 being a perfectly logical progression of size and design) but due to their unique packaging were out of kilter with the market norms. And because of the Mini's arbitrarily small size, the whole range's 'anchor point' was too small.
The 1100/1300 may have been functionally a Cortina competitor but in terms of its physical size and engine options it was an Anglia equivalent, while the 1800 may have had the cabin space and comfort of a Zephyr but, likewise, was viewed more often as a Cortina rival.
Ford deliberately designed the Cortina to slot into this gap. They quickly realised that the Mini was not financially viable to make, and one Ford engineer said that they never understood why BMC bothered with the Mini, which had no real purpose beyond being an intellectual exercise in packaging - in their opinion BMC's smallest car should have been the ADO16.
This is exactly how Ford player it - the Anglia was the external size of an 1100, the price of a Mini and had 998cc and 1198cc engines. The Cortina was a conventional, stylish mid-size saloon pared down to the bone (making it cheap to buy and simple and economical to run) offering buyers a larger (on the outside) car with bigger engines for the same price as BMC's small but spacious two-box ADO16. Whatever the BMC cars' technical virtues, they seemed to be poor value for money compared to the Fords, and always one step 'off kilter' size wise.
Of course Ford's assessment was completely right, as shown by the development of the 'supermini', which retained all the Mini's good qualities but in a more sensible size.
BMC belatedly tried to fix this problem with the Maxi, specifically intended to be a 1.5-litre Cortina-sized product, but they made a complete hash of it.
As said, the Marina was a one-shot attempt to compete against both the Escort and Cortina but continued the tradition of being an odd between-segment size, partly because BMC lacked decent mid-sized engines suitable for RWD use (hence why the Marina had only 1.3 and 1.8, while Ford offered the Kent and Pinto engines in everything between 1.1 and 2.0).
The Allegro was similarly badly conceived, being part Escort equivalent and part FWD Marina stablemate. Size wise it was Escort-esque, but engines ran from 1100 to 1750 and the Cortina's growth from Mk2 to Mk3 left it awkwardly in between.
This legacy was to plague BL and its successors for years - the Metro was smaller than the supermini norm because of its Mini engineering base. That meant that BL couldn't offer a 3-door hatchback in the Golf/Astra/Escort/205 mold because it would render the Metro pointless, so the Maestro was significantly bigger than the class norm and only available with 5-doors. But that left a weird hole in the BL range between the smaller-than-normal Metro and the bigger-than-normal Maestro.
Even in the 1990s, the R3 Rover 200 (built on the back end of the Maestro) struggled because it was neither a properly small supermini or a C-segment family hatch, but a weird in-between size. It was priced to match its C-segment equivalents, which just made it seem expensive, while it was too big and upmarket to price down in the supermini segment.
All because Len Lord wanted the Mini to be 10ft by 4ft.
Yes, all very well and sage words but the 1100/1300 were the best sellers for very many years.
The Allegro was where it went wrong, like an inflated 1100/1300. Even as a teenager, you knew it just wasn't right. The Marina was no match for the rockstar Cortina Mk III and the 1800/2200 was just ugly, make no bones about it. "Land Crab" was not a term of affection.
The Allegro was where it went wrong, like an inflated 1100/1300. Even as a teenager, you knew it just wasn't right. The Marina was no match for the rockstar Cortina Mk III and the 1800/2200 was just ugly, make no bones about it. "Land Crab" was not a term of affection.
In the day families were very marque-oriented, I seem to remember. My father ran a Ford dealership so he was naturally biased, but often one neighbour was always buying Austins and another Morris each swearing by their choice as being better when in reality it was basically it was only the grille that was different. For the last 30 years all I have driven is a Mercedes of one kind or another so I guess I fall into the same category. In my younger days it was Hobson's choice (including two horrible Marinas) because the group I worked for bought all cars from Appleyards in Edinburgh. Was your family like that in the day? Here in France there is a noticeable change where families that were always to be seen in a Renault/Peugeot/Citroen are now often to be seen in a Kia/Dacia/Hyundai.
lowdrag said:
In the day families were very marque-oriented, I seem to remember. My father ran a Ford dealership so he was naturally biased, but often one neighbour was always buying Austins and another Morris each swearing by their choice as being better when in reality it was basically it was only the grille that was different. For the last 30 years all I have driven is a Mercedes of one kind or another so I guess I fall into the same category. In my younger days it was Hobson's choice (including two horrible Marinas) because the group I worked for bought all cars from Appleyards in Edinburgh. Was your family like that in the day? Here in France there is a noticeable change where families that were always to be seen in a Renault/Peugeot/Citroen are now often to be seen in a Kia/Dacia/Hyundai.
Family members and myself will generally move between Marques. However for me it’s mainly been BMW’s as since 1993 I’ve owned 8 of them. Within that period, I’ve also had 2 Vauxhall’s (Cavalier and Vectra) an Alfa 159, Audi A4 and an E Class Mercedes. 70’s: Ford v Vauxhall v BL....Mainly Fords in the family.
Cortinas 1/ 2 & Escort 2’s
My Dad switched to the dark side in 78... Brand new Viva GLS.
(+Uncle, Fiat & then devout Lada Man... Best Cars in the world)
Neighbours: Morris 1300 VDP / Allegro VDP, Marina 1.3, Metro & Skoda Favorit....the Japanese crept in with the 120Y / Cherry too.
Many wind ups always ensued then.
You chose a marque & stuck with it...regardless weather it was the best or not.
Learned to drive in a Chevette, but most of the 80’s was spent driving BL cars, for work & personal choice. Some lovely cars then.
(I had an Acclaim & EFI)
Top Gears view on the Allegro & Marina... for what it’s worth.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3UJfbunHVuc
Cortinas 1/ 2 & Escort 2’s
My Dad switched to the dark side in 78... Brand new Viva GLS.
(+Uncle, Fiat & then devout Lada Man... Best Cars in the world)
Neighbours: Morris 1300 VDP / Allegro VDP, Marina 1.3, Metro & Skoda Favorit....the Japanese crept in with the 120Y / Cherry too.
Many wind ups always ensued then.
You chose a marque & stuck with it...regardless weather it was the best or not.
Learned to drive in a Chevette, but most of the 80’s was spent driving BL cars, for work & personal choice. Some lovely cars then.
(I had an Acclaim & EFI)
Top Gears view on the Allegro & Marina... for what it’s worth.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3UJfbunHVuc
Edited by Milkyway on Friday 3rd December 17:22
AW111 said:
I bought my first car in 1979.
After looking at sundry cars including a Marina (probably a 1973 version), I ended up with a 1967 Corolla, which was actually a significantly better and newer design.
The more I think back on those times, the more I realise that the UK car buyer was very badly served.After looking at sundry cars including a Marina (probably a 1973 version), I ended up with a 1967 Corolla, which was actually a significantly better and newer design.
The well heeled could buy a Mercedes or BMW but it took the Japanese to show that you could actually engineer vehicles for the ordinary buyer that weren’t f
ked by 6 years old. swisstoni said:
The more I think back on those times, the more I realise that the UK car buyer was very badly served.
The well heeled could buy a Mercedes or BMW but it took the Japanese to show that you could actually engineer vehicles for the ordinary buyer that weren’t fked by 6 years old.
My dad tells me of the Corona one of his colleagues bought new. Everybody was dead impressed by the finish and equipment for the price. A year later they weren't so impressed as it was rusting through. 6 years would be amazing....The well heeled could buy a Mercedes or BMW but it took the Japanese to show that you could actually engineer vehicles for the ordinary buyer that weren’t f
ked by 6 years old. Similar story with the 70's Nissans, significantly worse than anything made in the UK.
The difference is the Japanese learnt quickly from their mistakes.
LuS1fer said:
The Marina was originally designed to compete with the Escort before being redirected at the Cortina.
Knowing the BL management and brand infighting, the Marina was more likely originally designed to compete with another BL car.Like in F1, your main competitor is always the one from your own team.
Wacky Racer said:
My mum had a brand new white Austin 1100 automatic in 1971, I often drove it around, it was pretty slow but had a certain charm about it, I seem to remember the steering wheel was huge.
You were probably very small 
Most cars without power assisted steering had quite big wheels.
I had (very) second hand 1.8 super, swapped for a 100cc motorbike. As a speed mad 18 yr old, it was the fastest car for cheapest insurance group (3, when they only went up to 7). Apart from fitting a s/h gearbox (jumped out of 1st) and filling the hole on one wheel arch (rust) it was an ok set of wheels, helped by some furry dice and furry seat covers. And it was orange!
Edit. On a camping trip from Wales to Cornwall, I had to stop at Exeter as the water pump was leaking! Changed it in Halfords car park… try doing that on anything modern, Marina’s are Awesome
Edit. On a camping trip from Wales to Cornwall, I had to stop at Exeter as the water pump was leaking! Changed it in Halfords car park… try doing that on anything modern, Marina’s are Awesome
Edited by sideways man on Saturday 4th December 12:40
aeropilot said:
LuS1fer said:
The Marina was originally designed to compete with the Escort before being redirected at the Cortina.
It was supposedly pitched between the two, as BL couldn't afford to develop a new competitor to the Escort and the Cortina, so sized it between the two....which seems really strange given the ADO16 was really Anglia/Escort sized and that was replaced by the Allegro.The Maxi was out just before the Marina, which was Cortina sized, so why on earth did they even think they needed the Marina?
Size wise, the Marina was really only a competitor to the Hillman Avenger, which was also between the Escort and Cortina in size.
The Avenger was dynamically a much better car than the Marina in everyway.
Sid's Dad said:
The fleet market was absolutely huge, but never took to front-wheel-drive or hydrolastic suspension, so the ADO16, ADO17 and others never succeeded in this all-important sector. It wanted rear wheel drive, cart springs, simple, proven mechanicals and a good range of trim and engine levels. Exactly what Ford provided in spades which is why it dominated the fleet market. BL hired Roy Haynes (who developed the Mk2 Cortina) to develop a fleet-targeted model to give access to that huge market. The Marina was the outcome. It was quite successful at its job, but like every other BL product, suffered from a lack of development and so failed to keep up with the market.
This.The Transit and Sprinter vans nicely demonstrate the fleet market isn't that bothered about later life issues like rust as long as the operating costs during their ownership are low.
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