Morris Marina - was it really that bad?
Discussion
Turbobanana said:
CDP said:
Apparently the 1300 isn't so bad on the handling but is sideways at 10mph on wet roundabouts...
Utter rubbish. I passed my test in a 1.3, which meant for the least experienced period of my driving career I drove too fast in a car I had few skills in. I never got it sideways at 10mph on a wet roundabout. To do that you'd have needed bald tyres. You might have stood a chance in a 1.8 but I didn't own mine long enough to find out.At the inquest the police investigator said the car was fine, the tyres were fine, but it was a badly designed car that was difficult to control in damp.conditions. we were doing 20 mph less than the speed limit in drizzle.
They were s
t. Well, whether you agree or not, this is something to peruse:-
https://www.carandclassic.com/magazine/1975-morris...
https://www.carandclassic.com/magazine/1975-morris...
lowdrag said:
Well, whether you agree or not, this is something to peruse:-
https://www.carandclassic.com/magazine/1975-morris...
Anhhh, the TC. The car VW copied when they thought about the Golf GTi...https://www.carandclassic.com/magazine/1975-morris...
...well, the red trim around the radiator grill..
You never know. It might have some BL "special tuning" parts on it
williamp said:
Anhhh, the TC. The car VW copied when they thought about the Golf GTi...
...well, the red trim around the radiator grill..
You never know. It might have some BL "special tuning" parts on it
To me the Marina TC always nicely illustrates the 'inefficiency of effort' on BL's part when it came to the Marina. ...well, the red trim around the radiator grill..
You never know. It might have some BL "special tuning" parts on it
Think about what Ford offered with the Mk2 Escort - you had basic 1100 and 1300 versions, in Popular, Popular Plus, L and GL spec. Then you had the Ghia for those who wanted real snob appeal, and the option of a Ghia with the 1600 single-carb engine for those who really wanted to kid themselves they were driving a luxury saloon. You had the RS Mexico and the RS2000 with their bespoke body and suspension tweaks and Pinto OHC engines (plus the nose-job on the 2000). And if you fancied an RS but couldn't afford one you could have a 1600 Sport with the engine from the 1600 Ghia and most of the exterior and interior bits of the Mexico, but not the body or running gear upgrades.
It was a comprehensive and logical model range, using one bodyshell (in two- and four-door form - let's not count the estate for now) and all but the specialist RSs used the same engine range, with modular and progressive upgrades to the interior and mechanical bits. A bit of variety at the bottom of the range to fulfill the needs of the majority, then a split in the range at the top between 'luxury' and 'performance'.
With the Marina, BL offered just the 1.3, the 1.8 and the twin-carb 1.8. Those engines also represented trim levels (DL, Super and TC) and there was minimal variation and options within those trim levels. You couldn't have a basic 1.8, or a luxurious 1.3. Beyond the engine there was no mechanical difference between the TC and the standard Super, and the TC had to serve as both the most luxurious Marina and the one with vaguely sporty imagery, making it badly-suited to be either. There was no proper sporty Marina, maybe with a 1.7 O-Series and the S/T suspension and brake upgrades. Neither was there a Vanden Plas Marina with leather seats, proper carpets and four ashtrays.
And those three engines/trim levels had to be delivered across two bodies (coupe and saloon), and the coupe had to be treated as the entry-level replacement for the 2-door Morris Minor, robbing it of any potential to be a more upmarket Capri/Magnum/Rapier competitor.
Just really muddled thinking and, as I said, a strange inefficiency of effort not getting the most from the 'building blocks' available. And this from a company with a legacy of over-extensive badge engineering and offering the Mini in five different trim levels under two different marques for most of the 1960s!
2xChevrons said:
And those three engines/trim levels had to be delivered across two bodies (coupe and saloon), and the coupe had to be treated as the entry-level replacement for the 2-door Morris Minor, robbing it of any potential to be a more upmarket Capri/Magnum/Rapier competitor.
But two door models used to be the cheap version. For example back with the E30 BMW 3 series the 2 door model was quite a bit cheaper than the 4 door one, building doors is more expensive than having a fixed bit of body work. Then the marketing guys realised that you can call a 2 door a "coupe" and then you can charge more for it.It also made the Marina - a big selling car intended mainly for the fleet market - very profitable with low unit costs. BL had learned from the 1100/1300 the cost of having so many different models and even Ford cut down the Mark 3 Cortina range around 1972. There was an 1800 Deluxe base model early on but they didn't sell many.
BL did expand the Marina range later on with a plush 1300HL and a basic 1700L and did very well from it.
BL did expand the Marina range later on with a plush 1300HL and a basic 1700L and did very well from it.
Very interesting post about the trim levels. I wonder if the culture was carried over from a few years ago- you want a luxury austin? Buy the Wolsley. Sporting? Riley. More sporty? MG (feel free to argue on the riley v MG marques during BMC. Not sure I know...).but with those brands dead, dying or no longer in contention, the Morris had to do it all.. and they forgot about what the other brands could offer the customer???
Touring442 said:
It also made the Marina - a big selling car intended mainly for the fleet market - very profitable with low unit costs. BL had learned from the 1100/1300 the cost of having so many different models and even Ford cut down the Mark 3 Cortina range around 1972. There was an 1800 Deluxe base model early on but they didn't sell many.
BL did expand the Marina range later on with a plush 1300HL and a basic 1700L and did very well from it.
Well they didn’t do that well did they ??BL did expand the Marina range later on with a plush 1300HL and a basic 1700L and did very well from it.
Mr lestat said:
Well they didn’t do that well did they ??
Not bad, but no Cortinahttps://www.aronline.co.uk/opinion/essay-morris-ma...
Better then some of the Euro porridge from renault et al??
My father used to sell these when they were new. He said it was a regular occurrence for brand new BL/Austin Rover cars to fail the PDI and for his dealership bodyshop to paint over the rust in the internal panel joints before delivery to the customer.
There was a campaign at some point called ‘Move over to Austin Rover’. He was sent some big posters to this effect, but the ‘move over’ part was illustrated by a road sign showing a right turning - so he drew on the poster a queue of cars, BMW, Honda etc all coming the opposite way and blocking the right turn.
There was a campaign at some point called ‘Move over to Austin Rover’. He was sent some big posters to this effect, but the ‘move over’ part was illustrated by a road sign showing a right turning - so he drew on the poster a queue of cars, BMW, Honda etc all coming the opposite way and blocking the right turn.
williamp said:
Mr lestat said:
Well they didn’t do that well did they ??
Not bad, but no Cortinahttps://www.aronline.co.uk/opinion/essay-morris-ma...
Better then some of the Euro porridge from renault et al??
a8hex said:
But two door models used to be the cheap version. For example back with the E30 BMW 3 series the 2 door model was quite a bit cheaper than the 4 door one, building doors is more expensive than having a fixed bit of body work. Then the marketing guys realised that you can call a 2 door a "coupe" and then you can charge more for it.
That was my point. A two-door saloon was the standard entry-level option for a small family car at the time, hence why there were two-door versions of the Escort, the Viva, the Avenger and so on. One of the inherent problems with the Marina was that it straddled the small and medium saloon sizes because BL didn't want to fork out for two new platforms but desperately needed to replace both the Morris Minor and the Farina-B range. Roy Haynes originally drew up the Marina coupe with bespoke outer panels as a direct Capri equivalent, but BL wouldn't sign off on those costs and insisted that the coupe had to use the same panels from the B-pillar forwards as the saloon, including the doors. That made the coupe a clear derivative of the saloon and impossible to pitch as a Capri-style aspirational premium 'personal luxury vehicle' (imagine if the Capri had the front end of a Cortina?!), so they decided to drop any thoughts of a two-door Marina saloon and have the coupe as the entry-level 2-door body style - right through the range, the Marina was always slightly cheaper as a coupe than as the equivalent saloon.
The 1.3 Coupe was the replacement for the Minor 2-door, the 1.3 Saloon the replacement for the Minor 4-door, the 1.8 saloon the replacement for the Farina-B. The 1.8-engined coupes had no real antecedents in the BMC/BL range, but as I mentioned suffered from the one-size-fits all 'TC' spec.
Ford managed to offer two-door saloon Escorts (and Cortinas) in both ultra-basic 'cooking' spec and as genuinely sporty performers with meaningful mechanical upgrades with the RS versions. So did Vauxhall with the Viva/Firenza. The Marina coupe had to do double duty at both ends of the range, and suffered as a result.
Touring442 said:
It also made the Marina - a big selling car intended mainly for the fleet market - very profitable with low unit costs. BL had learned from the 1100/1300 the cost of having so many different models and even Ford cut down the Mark 3 Cortina range around 1972. There was an 1800 Deluxe base model early on but they didn't sell many.
BL did expand the Marina range later on with a plush 1300HL and a basic 1700L and did very well from it.
I didn't know about the brief existence of the 1.8 Deluxe Marina. And yes, they did expand the range with the Marina 2. BL did expand the Marina range later on with a plush 1300HL and a basic 1700L and did very well from it.
I do agree that it's possible that BL were (rightly) over-reacting to BMC's sprawling, over-complicated and counter-productive tendency to offer models in a blizzard of trim levels and badges. And it should be remembered that the Marina was a quickly thrown-together stopgap using whatever was going in the parts bin to replace the antiques in BL's inherited rear-wheel drive range and hold the fort until the ADO77 could do the job properly. I can see the logic in the simple three-trim/three-engine combined spec system there.
williamp said:
Very interesting post about the trim levels. I wonder if the culture was carried over from a few years ago- you want a luxury austin? Buy the Wolsley. Sporting? Riley. More sporty? MG (feel free to argue on the riley v MG marques during BMC. Not sure I know...).but with those brands dead, dying or no longer in contention, the Morris had to do it all.. and they forgot about what the other brands could offer the customer???
Possibly. It's certainly similar to the 1950s when it was common for car makers to offer a 'range' that was really closer to what we'd call trim levels today:Ford - Consul (four-cylinder), Zephyr (six-cylinder and a bit more chrome) Zodiac (six-cylinder with even more chrome and jazzy paint)
Vauxhall - Wyvern (four-cylinder), Velox (six-cylinder), Cresta (six-cylinder with two-tone paint)
Morris - Cowley (basic four-cylinder), Oxford (standard four-cylinder), Isis (six-cylinder)
all those models used the same bodyshell and the same engine families. The Marina was much more in that spirit than Ford's perfectly pitched and carefully honed 'ladder' of trim levels and engine options which offered buyers more flexibility as well as tempting people to upgrade or treat themselves.
Back in our early motoring days one of our group of mates had the 1.8 TC Coupe , we were all apart from him running around in various fast Fords back then . His father was a used car dealer and bought it for him , car was maybe 5 yrs old , absolute piece of crap and handled like a boat .
The TC had a very rorty engine, but not much else . Unbelievably awful ride, especially in the back seat, and understeered for England. I was in one when it felled a lamp post after failing to negotiate a modest bend and the driver ran out of lock . His fault, undeniably , but a crap car. Successors my friend enjoyed were a Golf Mk 1 1100 (a revelation after the Marina ) and a sublime Alfasud Ti .
Re badge engineering, my first car was , I think , the last Riley of all - the 1300 . Wooden dash , comfy seats , rev counter and a house trained Cooper S engine. Performance enhanced by a Hesketh Racing sticker, a whip aerial and a 13" Astrali . I loved it - or at least I did until the floor started to fall out...
Re badge engineering, my first car was , I think , the last Riley of all - the 1300 . Wooden dash , comfy seats , rev counter and a house trained Cooper S engine. Performance enhanced by a Hesketh Racing sticker, a whip aerial and a 13" Astrali . I loved it - or at least I did until the floor started to fall out...
Mr lestat said:
williamp said:
Mr lestat said:
Well they didn’t do that well did they ??
Not bad, but no Cortinahttps://www.aronline.co.uk/opinion/essay-morris-ma...
Better then some of the Euro porridge from renault et al??
In the 70s once borrowed the company pool car, some sort of Marina on a short notice overnight visit to a steelworks up near Redcar, Lackenby strip Mill iirc.
Best bit about the Marina was the handbrake, you could h/b turn it really effectively, and it didn't actually fall over.
But after that experience went back to using my own runabout snotter of Mk1Escort 1300, or if that was having one of its regular non starting hissy fits, typical Ford in Cold and damp, then used to rent something and claim the mileage. In those days could rent even a Granada and make a profit.
Best bit about the Marina was the handbrake, you could h/b turn it really effectively, and it didn't actually fall over.
But after that experience went back to using my own runabout snotter of Mk1Escort 1300, or if that was having one of its regular non starting hissy fits, typical Ford in Cold and damp, then used to rent something and claim the mileage. In those days could rent even a Granada and make a profit.
FiF said:
... and claim the mileage. In those days could rent even a Granada and make a profit.
The one time I got to claim mileage the company had various bands, I think the top one was 1850cc upwards, my Doli was an 1854cc engine. I think I got more than a weeks pay in mileage allowance 
mind my pay was st. CDP said:
LuS1fer said:
4rephill said:
Tiff Needell has said in interviews/Youtube videos that the Minor 1000 was ideal for learning about controlling power over-steer because the rear wheel drive, combined with cross-ply tyres, made it east to get the rear end to step out and hold a slide on roundabouts and such like, all at slow, safe speeds.
I do wonder about things like this. I had the lower, faster Austin A40 Farina but the fact is that while the crossplies easily let go, the brakes were rubbish, the steering was far too slow and the suspension would just load up and squirrel and bounce about. A tautly suspended German saloon it was not Had the Minor been built as intended, it would have been a very much better car than it was.
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