E-Type Tyre Dilemma
Discussion
lowdrag said:
vpr said:
Yeah. 205/70 on a 5.5 wheel.
Yeah I love the hardtop look better too. I used to leave it on on my S3 Commy too. Clean line.
I am having one repaired for my '61 roadster. You'll never have seen one I guess and it took me 30 years to find mine. But then again, you may or may not like it. This is the only photo I have and the other is from the 1965 advert. It will arrive just before the Le Mans Classic I've this photo of mine being worked on and the other is the 1965 advert:-
And I'm with you Swisstoni; I do find it hard to fold down a hard top
Hi Lowdrag,Yeah I love the hardtop look better too. I used to leave it on on my S3 Commy too. Clean line.
I am having one repaired for my '61 roadster. You'll never have seen one I guess and it took me 30 years to find mine. But then again, you may or may not like it. This is the only photo I have and the other is from the 1965 advert. It will arrive just before the Le Mans Classic I've this photo of mine being worked on and the other is the 1965 advert:-
And I'm with you Swisstoni; I do find it hard to fold down a hard top
Edited by lowdrag on Monday 10th April 17:13
I have a 61 roadster too.
Any words of advice for someone who’s always driven with synchromesh boxes and finds the Moss box and absolute effing b
d to get used to?So much so that I’ve hardly used the car.
Moss boxes vary. When I bought my XK150 it had the original CR non overdrive box and I really enjoyed it. OK, it didn't like to be rushed but changing up was never a problem. 4th to 3rd was fine, 3rd to 2nd just needed a little more time. It was only ever changing into 1st that required a knack.
I could be teaching granny to suck eggs here - if so I'm sorry.
Before selecting 1st go into 2nd and then slot it forward into first and it would usually be fine.
Or at low speed you could change from 2nd into first and you'd feel all the mechanical bits slotting neatly into place. I think this was the feeling I really enjoyed with that box.
I never found the need to double declutch.
So that was the first Moss box in my 150.
When I swapped over to a 4.2 engine I also had an overdrive box installed and this entailed changing the whole gearbox. This one didn't feel quite as nice and was a bit slower to slot between gears. What no one told me before fitting the overdrive box was that it wasn't likely to take the torque of the engine. It didn't and it totally lunched the Laycock de Normanville unit in very little time.
So the ultimate way to improve the gear change is to swap the Moss box for a modern 5 speed unit. Guy Broad had a casting developed which uses the Ford internals, I thought it was from an MT75, but I also thought it was the one used in the RS500 which would make it a T5, I'm obviously forgetting something here. Anyway it uses modern internals while the casing has all the right bolt holes to be a straight replacement for the Moss box. You can get this gearbox from a few places, I got mine from Winspeed, I believe they deal directly with the people manufacturing it these days. There are versions suitable for the different models of XKs and E types. Everything comes out in the right place so the only things you need to worry about at the speedo cable and the fact it weighs considerably less than a Moss box. It was never an issue to me but I was told I could have any sets of ratios I liked fitted, all the gears are easily available.
This 5 speed made the car very much easier to drive. Changing gear was just like any modern manual. I.E. no big event.
For me, that was a downside.
Tony (Lowdrag) later suggested I should have gone back to the original Moss box and just had the rear axle ratio changed. Sadly it was too late by then.
I could be teaching granny to suck eggs here - if so I'm sorry.
Before selecting 1st go into 2nd and then slot it forward into first and it would usually be fine.
Or at low speed you could change from 2nd into first and you'd feel all the mechanical bits slotting neatly into place. I think this was the feeling I really enjoyed with that box.
I never found the need to double declutch.
So that was the first Moss box in my 150.
When I swapped over to a 4.2 engine I also had an overdrive box installed and this entailed changing the whole gearbox. This one didn't feel quite as nice and was a bit slower to slot between gears. What no one told me before fitting the overdrive box was that it wasn't likely to take the torque of the engine. It didn't and it totally lunched the Laycock de Normanville unit in very little time.
So the ultimate way to improve the gear change is to swap the Moss box for a modern 5 speed unit. Guy Broad had a casting developed which uses the Ford internals, I thought it was from an MT75, but I also thought it was the one used in the RS500 which would make it a T5, I'm obviously forgetting something here. Anyway it uses modern internals while the casing has all the right bolt holes to be a straight replacement for the Moss box. You can get this gearbox from a few places, I got mine from Winspeed, I believe they deal directly with the people manufacturing it these days. There are versions suitable for the different models of XKs and E types. Everything comes out in the right place so the only things you need to worry about at the speedo cable and the fact it weighs considerably less than a Moss box. It was never an issue to me but I was told I could have any sets of ratios I liked fitted, all the gears are easily available.
This 5 speed made the car very much easier to drive. Changing gear was just like any modern manual. I.E. no big event.
For me, that was a downside.
Tony (Lowdrag) later suggested I should have gone back to the original Moss box and just had the rear axle ratio changed. Sadly it was too late by then.
Thanks for that helpful reply. I have looked at replacement 5 speed boxes but I assume that its an engine out job?
The car is currently in perfect condition as it’s a total restoration and I don’t really want to disturb too much about the car at all.
I think I just need to get some miles in with the Moss box. It’s just a bit nerve wracking around my way as there’s lots of traffic and hill starts I never noticed before this baulky box of cogs.
Selecting 1st reliably when at a stop is a priority for me to perfect.
The car is currently in perfect condition as it’s a total restoration and I don’t really want to disturb too much about the car at all.
I think I just need to get some miles in with the Moss box. It’s just a bit nerve wracking around my way as there’s lots of traffic and hill starts I never noticed before this baulky box of cogs.
Selecting 1st reliably when at a stop is a priority for me to perfect.
Edited by swisstoni on Monday 10th April 21:11
a8hex has hit the nail on the head. At a standstill the box will often baulk when trying to find first gear, so pull back to second and then forward for 1st. That usually works but f not declutch once more and try again. It is just a question of getting used to this cantankerous old beast. But there is a deep satisfaction once you get into the rhythm and get it right without even having to think, especially from third to second. If you can't get on with it, Guy Broad makes a 5-speed at a reasonable price, or you could go for a Jaguar 4-speed, but for me that would be admitting defeat. I remember when a friend and I were touring and we filled up at a petrol station. We looked at each other and grinned as we heard simultanious graunches as we selected first gear. The boxes are unbreakable and if your's is a matching numbers car what ever you do keep the original box.
Thanks for the replies.
Am I right in understanding an earlier comment that 3 to 2 should be possible without double declutching if taken slow?
This sounds a bit counter-intuitive as I thought the point of declutching was to allow a blip of throttle to bring the various rotating bits to a similar speed.
Going slow would seem to allow more time for the engine revs to drop low.
Am I right in understanding an earlier comment that 3 to 2 should be possible without double declutching if taken slow?
This sounds a bit counter-intuitive as I thought the point of declutching was to allow a blip of throttle to bring the various rotating bits to a similar speed.
Going slow would seem to allow more time for the engine revs to drop low.
swisstoni said:
Thanks for the replies.
Am I right in understanding an earlier comment that 3 to 2 should be possible without double declutching if taken slow?
This sounds a bit counter-intuitive as I thought the point of declutching was to allow a blip of throttle to bring the various rotating bits to a similar speed.
Going slow would seem to allow more time for the engine revs to drop low.
It doesn't like to be rushed, going too slowly might also cause issues I guess. There should be synchromesh on 2nd it just isn't as fast acting as that in a more modern design even that of the slightly later Jaguar 4 speed box used on the later E's and S-types.Am I right in understanding an earlier comment that 3 to 2 should be possible without double declutching if taken slow?
This sounds a bit counter-intuitive as I thought the point of declutching was to allow a blip of throttle to bring the various rotating bits to a similar speed.
Going slow would seem to allow more time for the engine revs to drop low.
Sadly I don't have mine any longer so I can't easily talk you through it, Tony is in a better position to describe the process. I just remember it as being a slow deliberate action. If it's being really difficult I'd suggest getting someone to look at the box, if you're being told "They all do that" they don't.
swisstoni said:
Thanks for the replies.
Am I right in understanding an earlier comment that 3 to 2 should be possible without double declutching if taken slow?
This sounds a bit counter-intuitive as I thought the point of declutching was to allow a blip of throttle to bring the various rotating bits to a similar speed.
Going slow would seem to allow more time for the engine revs to drop low.
If you can change from 3rd to second without graunching the gears you are a better man than I Gunga Din. It is a change that needs to be practiced:-Am I right in understanding an earlier comment that 3 to 2 should be possible without double declutching if taken slow?
This sounds a bit counter-intuitive as I thought the point of declutching was to allow a blip of throttle to bring the various rotating bits to a similar speed.
Going slow would seem to allow more time for the engine revs to drop low.
From third.....declutch - neutral - release clutch - rev - declutch - second - release clutch. That's why it is called a double declutch. Being an old fart I grew up around cars with no synchro, so it became second nature. And there is a lad I have taught in my E-type and he has got it off pat after a few tries.
If you can't master it, then I recommend the Guy Broad 5-speed because it replaces the Moss box with no modifications and moreover is nowhere near the price of some of the boxes out there. But I'll stick with my old Moss! At least 4th to third needs no shenanigans!
One of the (few) advantages of being an old fart is that we grew up driving old cars with either no synchro or knackered synchro. My first car was a 1963 Triumph Convertible with no synchro on first and non-functioning on second so double-declutching and engaging second before first from a standstill was second nature. I still find myself doing it from habit on moderns.
rovermorris999 said:
One of the (few) advantages of being an old fart is that we grew up driving old cars with either no synchro or knackered synchro. My first car was a 1963 Triumph Convertible with no synchro on first and non-functioning on second so double-declutching and engaging second before first from a standstill was second nature. I still find myself doing it from habit on moderns.
My late father was the same, was still doing it out of habit way past the need to.....but then he learnt to drive on Bedford QL lorries in Egypt when he was in the Army
As such even though I didn't need to learn double clutching when I learned to drive in 1980, my old man still felt the need to teach me.
I'm glad he did, as it came in handy 10 or so years later when I started getting involved in driving a lot of different WW2 era vehicles, when it was a necessity to know how to, and it really didn't take long to fall back into doing what he had thankfully taught me.
Of all the Jaguars with Moss boxes iv'e driven over the last 20 years (50+?) i only remember driving one, which was in a nice old XK140, which had a decent positive gear change. Didn't crunch at all going 1st to 2nd or 3rd to 2nd. (still had to select 1st when stationary) so it must be possible.
The rest were really bad, not too bad or just acceptable but still had to be driven carefully .
the 2nd gear syncro on the Moss box has to be set up in a press with shims under the springs to get the correct specified pre-load to operate. this does mean a removal and dismantle though. And maybe different gearboxes, although should be the same, may need slightly altered pre-loads to operate more adequately? but who would dismantle a gearbox several times for trial and error?
make sure you have the right oil. Engine oil for the Moss Box and make sure the clutch has good clearance as this can drag a little of not set up correctly.
The rest were really bad, not too bad or just acceptable but still had to be driven carefully .
the 2nd gear syncro on the Moss box has to be set up in a press with shims under the springs to get the correct specified pre-load to operate. this does mean a removal and dismantle though. And maybe different gearboxes, although should be the same, may need slightly altered pre-loads to operate more adequately? but who would dismantle a gearbox several times for trial and error?
make sure you have the right oil. Engine oil for the Moss Box and make sure the clutch has good clearance as this can drag a little of not set up correctly.
Edited by Bozwell on Tuesday 11th April 22:57
I have owned my XK120 for 23 years and for the majority of those years ran the car with the original Moss box. I rather enjoyed the challenge of it and also the 'knuckly' feel of the change action. It also reminded you who was boss as whenever you had the audacity to believe you had mastered it it would reward you with an almighty graunch - normally, if I recall correctly, from 3rd to 2nd.
Sadly it is no longer in the car (although still in my possession). It developed a habit of grinding on heavy breaking (or even lighter braking on a downhill) so something was clearly shifting backwards and forwards. I was told that the particular parts I needed were no longer available and was encouraged to buy a Guy Broad 5 speed conversion. I have to say that is a marvelous bit of kit and gives me a much higher top gear. All that said, I do feel a bit of a wuss not having the Moss box in the car any more.
A word of caution to people doing a similar thing to have the speedo recalibrated. If you do not the original speedo will under-read massively. I did not and flashed a speed camera in a few minutes into my test drive of the new box.
In case anyone is interested, the previous owner of my XK120 was the late Dr Harvey Postlethwaite who, accordingly to the history file, overhauled the box personally during his ownership.
In an effort to guide us back to the original topic I run with full profile Pirelli Cinturatos 185VR16s and nice they are too. Now I think about it they are probably stale dated.
Glad to hear Low Drag is restoring his unusual E-Type hardtop. Please keep us posted.
Sadly it is no longer in the car (although still in my possession). It developed a habit of grinding on heavy breaking (or even lighter braking on a downhill) so something was clearly shifting backwards and forwards. I was told that the particular parts I needed were no longer available and was encouraged to buy a Guy Broad 5 speed conversion. I have to say that is a marvelous bit of kit and gives me a much higher top gear. All that said, I do feel a bit of a wuss not having the Moss box in the car any more.
A word of caution to people doing a similar thing to have the speedo recalibrated. If you do not the original speedo will under-read massively. I did not and flashed a speed camera in a few minutes into my test drive of the new box.
In case anyone is interested, the previous owner of my XK120 was the late Dr Harvey Postlethwaite who, accordingly to the history file, overhauled the box personally during his ownership.
In an effort to guide us back to the original topic I run with full profile Pirelli Cinturatos 185VR16s and nice they are too. Now I think about it they are probably stale dated.
Glad to hear Low Drag is restoring his unusual E-Type hardtop. Please keep us posted.
Tyres were smaller section back in the day but you could have got a free muscle-building course if you had gone for 205's. And of course crossplies are so much easier but are an absolute bh to keep running straight. They dance all over the place on the road but are great fun on the track. I reckon that more people buy 205's for the look than the performance since I know very few people who actually drive an E-type hard. That is why the JDC have dropped the hill climb day at Prescott and the May track day at Goodwood. The latter started with a full complement 25 years ago, then they allowed other clubs to join in to make up the numbers and now there aren't enough people at all.
h to keep running straight. They dance all over the place on the road but are great fun on the track. I reckon that more people buy 205's for the look than the performance since I know very few people who actually drive an E-type hard. That is why the JDC have dropped the hill climb day at Prescott and the May track day at Goodwood. The latter started with a full complement 25 years ago, then they allowed other clubs to join in to make up the numbers and now there aren't enough people at all.Ah the lovely singing Blockley cross plies. I found they hunted about less than the Avon's my car came with when I originally bought it.
As you say, great fun on the track, at least once they've had a few miles on them.
Being a mad bd I quite liked the way they hunted about on the road, but then I was driving a classic to have a totally different experience to everyday driving. The radials are much quieter and more civilised but had the downside of making the the car feel almost modern 
not as modern as an E obviously.
The Blockley crossplies sing because all the blocks are lined up and regular so they all hit the road and leave it in sync.
As you say, great fun on the track, at least once they've had a few miles on them.
Being a mad b
d I quite liked the way they hunted about on the road, but then I was driving a classic to have a totally different experience to everyday driving. The radials are much quieter and more civilised but had the downside of making the the car feel almost modern not as modern as an E obviously. The Blockley crossplies sing because all the blocks are lined up and regular so they all hit the road and leave it in sync.
OLDBENZ said:
Glad to hear Low Drag is restoring his unusual E-Type hardtop. Please keep us posted.
I shall be getting the first set of photos today I'm told but it would be unfair to the OP to continue here because we would be going completely off track. The rebuild is a spare time project for those doing it while for example awaiting deliveries etc but will be finished and on the car at the end of June. I've known these people for 20+ years. So I'll start a new thread in the Classic Cars forum.I never double de-clutched my old Mk2 with its Moss box and I never had much difficulty changing gear. Some careful grinding of the selector mechanism helps to eliminate some of the notches in neutral. I'd echo the need for 2nd before first. I always put it along the line that the 2nd shared its the synchromesh cones with 1st.
Once, the clutch slave cylinder gave up at Oulton Park. I drove home to Chester without a clutch. Surprisingly, the old Moss box changed gear quite well without it!
Once, the clutch slave cylinder gave up at Oulton Park. I drove home to Chester without a clutch. Surprisingly, the old Moss box changed gear quite well without it!
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