Engineer and proud?
Discussion
olf said:
DJC said:
olf said:
DJC said:
olf said:
Mechie with a BEng and Chartered and a Member of the IMechE.
Not sure why so many people have a downer on the Institutions... I can understand the comments but remember they are run by engineers so if you don't like it either join and change it or join and don't change it. Don't snipe from the edges because guess what? You're not really contributing to the future of engineering in this country by publicly devaluing the professional bodies and not explaining why.
Not sure why so many people have a downer on the Institutions... I can understand the comments but remember they are run by engineers so if you don't like it either join and change it or join and don't change it. Don't snipe from the edges because guess what? You're not really contributing to the future of engineering in this country by publicly devaluing the professional bodies and not explaining why.
Because they are meaningless. Why should I waste my time and money on them when I can happily ignore them? Meaningless to me is irrelevent, ergo, they are irrelevent.
Well as a software 'engineer' I would imagine that yes, they are meaningless to you. Good point well made.
The TVR one by quite a long way!
That really was the wrong question to ask
Except that the IEE, IEEE and BCS all seem to think they represent me and want my cash.
As to the "engineer" pts scoring...it only works on those who have their egos mixed up with them being an engineer. Ive got a Sagaris in the car park, who gives a damn what ppl think of my job!
BEng CEng
or
BSc TVR
Which one is going to win your next contract?
Wrong question to ask Im afraid on several fronts.
An easy answer though is the TVR one.
Edited by DJC on Friday 13th October 15:50
bales said:
DJC said:
Do some research. You may find it's worth your time and CV!
Well i appreciate your help, but at the moment all i can find is motorcyles and a town in cumbria which is strangely close to where i live?!
Edited to add
Oh and for some reason I have just remebered that in another thread you told me that I was responsible for manufacturers keep making hot hatches, I thought tha was very impressive of me.
I didn't realise that you were an engineer in the other thread especially as you said how much you hated hot hatches - I would have thought as an engineer you would recognise the advantages of said vehicles for the masses?
Edited by bales on Friday 13th October 15:11
OK, google, Brough Hawk.
cymtriks said:
RR-Eng said:
3. Work your way up the ladder, the top engineer at R-R earns something like £700K, this is long term solution and it has no guarantee of working.
The top guys at RR come from outside the company, the last top guy to come up through the ranks, all the way from being an apprentice, was Ralph Robbins.
Actually I was thinking along the lines of Colin Smith who is nominally the most senior engineer in the company, he started as a grad at Leavesdon.
cymtriks said:
Anyway the top engineers get paid less than a tenth of that.
Roughly it goes-
grad recruit 23K
senior engineer 30K
principal engineer 35K
staff 40K
high level staff 45K
fellow 50K plus
As I pointed out in my posts it is correct that you aren't going to make large amounts of money on an engineer’s pay scale. However there are a large number of people on M grades (managers) and CSS (senior managers) who in those positions because of their engineering ability. I don't think they would let someone be a chief engineer whose background was in general management.
That said you could potentially be a staff engineer before the age of 30 which is by most people standards not a bad wage for a 30 year old. Isn’t it professional/specialist grades above staff technologist then fellows who are equivalent to company senior staff (CSS) (I’m guessing 75K+ for a fellow but then you are pretty much the best person in the world at what you do so that only fair
) A contractor earns about 40K
cymtriks said:
You get paid two K more on day one if you join the graduate management course. They have to pay managers more because they're short of engineers.
Actually they recruited the people on the professional excellence scheme and the management scheme from the same pool of applicants. The reason the management people are paid more is because they will be on that scheme for about 4 years where as the professional excellence grads will be in a proper job in a year and a half and hence seeing an immediate pay rise when they do.
I've just been dipped with the task of managing graduates for turbine systems Derby so I can be mean to both...
The long and short of my posts up to this point;
If you work hard and smart engineering is a good pathway to jobs that pay pretty well. However it can't be guaranteed if the breaks don't come your way. This is as opposed to certain career paths where is you work hard you are pretty much guaranteed a large salary simply for doing your functional job without management responsibility.
Edited by RR-eng on Friday 13th October 18:27
cj_eds said:
Without managers pressing timescales, alot of engineers I know would keep fiddling and improving and tweaking forever.
Engineers are managers in their own right. They need to be managed by other (senior) engineers, not members of other professions, especially accountants or even non-professionals.
Edited by saddle bum on Friday 13th October 16:24
Just to clear up a misconception, management and engineering are not two mutually exclusive activities.
Management is one element of engineering.
Managers are those simply trained to undertake one single element of the Engineers portfolio of responsibilities.
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Management is one element of engineering.
Managers are those simply trained to undertake one single element of the Engineers portfolio of responsibilities.
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
I'd agree that being able to manage a project is a major part of being an engineer. How else does one communicate ideas and work to schedules and budgets without being able to undertake some form of project management? One of the few ways to improve your salery as an engineer is to take on more responsibility, which always involves extra management duties. Trouble is the more management you do the less time you have for creative engineering, which is generally the aspect of the job an engineer enjoys most, in my opinion
I suppose it comes down to what you find more important - doing a job you enjoy or earning more money...
I suppose it comes down to what you find more important - doing a job you enjoy or earning more money...
ferrisbueller said:
Scrufter said:
Through out all these posts, Money seems to be a reocuuring theme.
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
£100k seems a fair target.
100k when, at 30 years old, 40 ?
Which branch of engineering ?
Seems possible sometime inbetween 40-50 years old
Ben
It's a good point really, engineering vs managament. I have a long standing gripe about engineering companies particularly in the energy sector but elewhere too... and it goes something like this.
They listen to HR too much by far. HR insist that every graduate employed needs to be a future captain of industry, must have excellent communication skill, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, must be an xceptional team worker, blh blah blah.
No HR bunny in their right mind will go near the quiet one, the one who finds talking a grind, hates working in teams because he gets talked over by the exceptional leader, doesn't seem to mix well in the staged evening event... blah blah blah
Thats the one that continually slips through the net.
So in short HR bugger off. Engineering managers, go with your gut instinct when recruiting.
They listen to HR too much by far. HR insist that every graduate employed needs to be a future captain of industry, must have excellent communication skill, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, must be an xceptional team worker, blh blah blah.
No HR bunny in their right mind will go near the quiet one, the one who finds talking a grind, hates working in teams because he gets talked over by the exceptional leader, doesn't seem to mix well in the staged evening event... blah blah blah
Thats the one that continually slips through the net.
So in short HR bugger off. Engineering managers, go with your gut instinct when recruiting.
benyeats said:
ferrisbueller said:
Scrufter said:
Through out all these posts, Money seems to be a reocuuring theme.
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
£100k seems a fair target.
100k when, at 30 years old, 40 ?
Which branch of engineering ?
Seems possible sometime inbetween 40-50 years old
Ben
At 30, very difficult almost impossible. At 40, not beyond the realms of reality, but a challenge. At 50 a distinct possibility. Most likely way of making this happen is to start in engineering and move into a different business area to exploit your knowledge. Senior management roles or consultancy obviously the way to the £££.
swilly said:
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Most good engineers would do a better job of managing a supermarket than most supermarket managers. The average store manager for a large store (eg Tesco or Asda) earns rather a lot of money...
On the flip side, retail is a disgusting exploitative industry which is generally populated by some of the most dislikable people alive, or at least that's my limited experience of it
After spending 3 years getting an engineering degree, spending ages looking for a job I could afford to take, giving up and ending up in a total dead end job in a totally unrelated field, I now regard my degree as a total waste of 3 years of my life. My degree wasn't even deemed sufficient to get me onto a teacher training course, so i'm having to do an "enhancement" course to start that, dunno if i'll be teaching in ten years time, but at least it's not likely to be too boring, and the pro-rata pay isn't shabby
Despite not actually working as an engineer, I would still consider myself to be one, wierd huh?
olf said:
It's a good point really, engineering vs managament. I have a long standing gripe about engineering companies particularly in the energy sector but elewhere too... and it goes something like this.
They listen to HR too much by far. HR insist that every graduate employed needs to be a future captain of industry, must have excellent communication skill, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, must be an xceptional team worker, blh blah blah.
No HR bunny in their right mind will go near the quiet one, the one who finds talking a grind, hates working in teams because he gets talked over by the exceptional leader, doesn't seem to mix well in the staged evening event... blah blah blah
Thats the one that continually slips through the net.
So in short HR bugger off. Engineering managers, go with your gut instinct when recruiting.
They listen to HR too much by far. HR insist that every graduate employed needs to be a future captain of industry, must have excellent communication skill, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, must be an xceptional team worker, blh blah blah.
No HR bunny in their right mind will go near the quiet one, the one who finds talking a grind, hates working in teams because he gets talked over by the exceptional leader, doesn't seem to mix well in the staged evening event... blah blah blah
Thats the one that continually slips through the net.
So in short HR bugger off. Engineering managers, go with your gut instinct when recruiting.
nicely put
ferrisbueller said:
benyeats said:
ferrisbueller said:
Scrufter said:
Through out all these posts, Money seems to be a reocuuring theme.
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
£100k seems a fair target.
100k when, at 30 years old, 40 ?
Which branch of engineering ?
Seems possible sometime inbetween 40-50 years old
Ben
At 30, very difficult almost impossible. At 40, not beyond the realms of reality, but a challenge. At 50 a distinct possibility. Most likely way of making this happen is to start in engineering and move into a different business area to exploit your knowledge. Senior management roles or consultancy obviously the way to the £££.
One word - Contract.
cabinet enforcer said:
swilly said:
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Most good engineers would do a better job of managing a supermarket than most supermarket managers. The average store manager for a large store (eg Tesco or Asda) earns rather a lot of money...
On the flip side, retail is a disgusting exploitative industry which is generally populated by some of the most dislikable people alive, or at least that's my limited experience of it
After spending 3 years getting an engineering degree, spending ages looking for a job I could afford to take, giving up and ending up in a total dead end job in a totally unrelated field, I now regard my degree as a total waste of 3 years of my life. My degree wasn't even deemed sufficient to get me onto a teacher training course, so i'm having to do an "enhancement" course to start that, dunno if i'll be teaching in ten years time, but at least it's not likely to be too boring, and the pro-rata pay isn't shabby
Despite not actually working as an engineer, I would still consider myself to be one, wierd huh?
Some of my friends took the teaching route upon graduation and enjoy it very much. They are still degree qualified engineers and as such will always have that background knowledge and ability in their back pocket, whether they choose to use it or not.
As said above engineers are solid alrounders. In all likelihood the aptitudes required can be applied to a huge variety of jobs. Engineering in itself is no golden ticket but can open doors to a range of choices outside of the field.
On the wages front, people should bear in mind that 22k ish is the average starting wage for a grad in any field. WTF do people expect fresh out of uni? Make a note of when the first salary review is, most have one 6 months in. People are not going to give top dollar to someone with no track record or expertise. Companies are gambling on you, they don't owe you a living. Rather than starting wages consider what you'll be on in three years time. It's only natural to want more, but an air of realism needs to be adopted.
Davislove said:
olf said:
It's a good point really, engineering vs managament. I have a long standing gripe about engineering companies particularly in the energy sector but elewhere too... and it goes something like this.
They listen to HR too much by far. HR insist that every graduate employed needs to be a future captain of industry, must have excellent communication skill, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, must be an xceptional team worker, blh blah blah.
No HR bunny in their right mind will go near the quiet one, the one who finds talking a grind, hates working in teams because he gets talked over by the exceptional leader, doesn't seem to mix well in the staged evening event... blah blah blah
Thats the one that continually slips through the net.
So in short HR bugger off. Engineering managers, go with your gut instinct when recruiting.
They listen to HR too much by far. HR insist that every graduate employed needs to be a future captain of industry, must have excellent communication skill, leadership skills, interpersonal skills, must be an xceptional team worker, blh blah blah.
No HR bunny in their right mind will go near the quiet one, the one who finds talking a grind, hates working in teams because he gets talked over by the exceptional leader, doesn't seem to mix well in the staged evening event... blah blah blah
Thats the one that continually slips through the net.
So in short HR bugger off. Engineering managers, go with your gut instinct when recruiting.
nicely put
What he said...
ferrisbueller said:
cabinet enforcer said:
swilly said:
A professional engineer, therefore should be able to step into any mangement task without too much difficulty. Say for instance, managing a Tesco store. But a Tesco store manager could not step into the Engineers role.
Most good engineers would do a better job of managing a supermarket than most supermarket managers. The average store manager for a large store (eg Tesco or Asda) earns rather a lot of money...
On the flip side, retail is a disgusting exploitative industry which is generally populated by some of the most dislikable people alive, or at least that's my limited experience of it
After spending 3 years getting an engineering degree, spending ages looking for a job I could afford to take, giving up and ending up in a total dead end job in a totally unrelated field, I now regard my degree as a total waste of 3 years of my life. My degree wasn't even deemed sufficient to get me onto a teacher training course, so i'm having to do an "enhancement" course to start that, dunno if i'll be teaching in ten years time, but at least it's not likely to be too boring, and the pro-rata pay isn't shabby
Despite not actually working as an engineer, I would still consider myself to be one, wierd huh?
Some of my friends took the teaching route upon graduation and enjoy it very much. They are still degree qualified engineers and as such will always have that background knowledge and ability in their back pocket, whether they choose to use it or not.
As said above engineers are solid alrounders. In all likelihood the aptitudes required can be applied to a huge variety of jobs. Engineering in itself is no golden ticket but can open doors to a range of choices outside of the field.
On the wages front, people should bear in mind that 22k ish is the average starting wage for a grad in any field. WTF do people expect fresh out of uni? Make a note of when the first salary review is, most have one 6 months in. People are not going to give top dollar to someone with no track record or expertise. Companies are gambling on you, they don't owe you a living. Rather than starting wages consider what you'll be on in three years time. It's only natural to want more, but an air of realism needs to be adopted.
25.5k starter for mech grads in the southeast. 35 within 3 years. 37 in time for Chartership then 40k to 50k for you late 20's AND 30s. 60k in your 40s. That's assuming your're good but don't break out of eng for management.
Edited to say...
Thats IF you stay Staff.
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:45
Edited by olf on Friday 13th October 20:47
olf said:
ferrisbueller said:
benyeats said:
ferrisbueller said:
Scrufter said:
Through out all these posts, Money seems to be a reocuuring theme.
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
Just what do folks consider a fair wage for Engineering postions?
£100k seems a fair target.
100k when, at 30 years old, 40 ?
Which branch of engineering ?
Seems possible sometime inbetween 40-50 years old
Ben
At 30, very difficult almost impossible. At 40, not beyond the realms of reality, but a challenge. At 50 a distinct possibility. Most likely way of making this happen is to start in engineering and move into a different business area to exploit your knowledge. Senior management roles or consultancy obviously the way to the £££.
One word - Contract.
OK Olf, I'll bite. Show me the money...
links to the relevant sites will be fine
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