Lotus Exige V6 SC (Exige (S3?) - New Elise SC
Discussion
sidsideways]Really enjoying the pleasure you guys are getting from the anticipation [and you know what they say about that in all walks of life said:
but thought a 'distance view' might add some perspective to all the euphoria.
I was almost the first person to put my money down it seems years ago one August[bejabers, it was years ago!]
I won't bore you with the details but one has to judge anything on results and speculation as to reasons is interesting but unproductive. The results for me were a long term shambles and I cancelled, fairly recently because I decided that Lotus cars [who you are buying from irrespective of ownership] could not, will not, and never has been able to organise a piss up in a brewery and I was suffering from this for the fourth time over 3 decades! Also I have read nothing since I cancelled to make me regret my decision as it appears from your comments to be continuing as before.
I am an ex biker and have always been into fast but flickable vehicles. I think the new Exige is an amazing looking car but apart from 'the problems' look at the facts. What top sports car doesn't have LSD? [electronic ones put the brakes on not get the power down!] ALL LOTUS RACE CARS HAVE LSD!
Lotus sells on 'flickability' but how can you flick something that feels like a tank [imho, because I don't want to get sued!] because you need weight training to turn it. Also when it supposedly doesn't matter, at speed, I tried to adjust on an 70 mph [very approx] corner and added to the cornering forces was the steering effort which certainly did not make it feel light and flickable imho but then I am not a brilliant driver so what do I know? It is however my money to decide with and I did.
I have gone from the frying pan into the fire however as I am now waiting, again. This time for a 991 GT3 but at least I know it will happen; on time; with quality guaranteed and all [in some opinions, too much] of the very latest technology.
But its double the price you say and you are right. However if you remember long ago when this car was first tested by EVO [ and received good reports] I was lucky enough to talk to some of the testers who told me that it is an excellent British sports car but GT3s are excellent world sports cars! When asked by me as to which previous GT3 roughly equated to the Exige V6 they thought possibly the 997.1 which currently sells for around £50k.
In 3 years time which car do you think would be worth more and wearing better out of these 2 £50k cars?
Maybe it doesn't matter as with my opinions so all pistonheads enjoy whatever you drive before it all goes electric or banned!
Euphoria? Hardly.I was almost the first person to put my money down it seems years ago one August[bejabers, it was years ago!]
I won't bore you with the details but one has to judge anything on results and speculation as to reasons is interesting but unproductive. The results for me were a long term shambles and I cancelled, fairly recently because I decided that Lotus cars [who you are buying from irrespective of ownership] could not, will not, and never has been able to organise a piss up in a brewery and I was suffering from this for the fourth time over 3 decades! Also I have read nothing since I cancelled to make me regret my decision as it appears from your comments to be continuing as before.
I am an ex biker and have always been into fast but flickable vehicles. I think the new Exige is an amazing looking car but apart from 'the problems' look at the facts. What top sports car doesn't have LSD? [electronic ones put the brakes on not get the power down!] ALL LOTUS RACE CARS HAVE LSD!
Lotus sells on 'flickability' but how can you flick something that feels like a tank [imho, because I don't want to get sued!] because you need weight training to turn it. Also when it supposedly doesn't matter, at speed, I tried to adjust on an 70 mph [very approx] corner and added to the cornering forces was the steering effort which certainly did not make it feel light and flickable imho but then I am not a brilliant driver so what do I know? It is however my money to decide with and I did.
I have gone from the frying pan into the fire however as I am now waiting, again. This time for a 991 GT3 but at least I know it will happen; on time; with quality guaranteed and all [in some opinions, too much] of the very latest technology.
But its double the price you say and you are right. However if you remember long ago when this car was first tested by EVO [ and received good reports] I was lucky enough to talk to some of the testers who told me that it is an excellent British sports car but GT3s are excellent world sports cars! When asked by me as to which previous GT3 roughly equated to the Exige V6 they thought possibly the 997.1 which currently sells for around £50k.
In 3 years time which car do you think would be worth more and wearing better out of these 2 £50k cars?
Maybe it doesn't matter as with my opinions so all pistonheads enjoy whatever you drive before it all goes electric or banned!
What, honestly, is motivating you to try and talk people out of getting a V6 Exige and into a Porsche?
I am genuinely at a loss to understand.
Presumably you think Lotus are so hopeless that you're doing the poor lost souls on here a favour?
Why not just get the 991 GT3 and demonstrate it's awesome, crushing superiority on track days instead?
Edited by The Pits on Sunday 28th April 14:40
Edited by The Pits on Sunday 28th April 14:41
sidsideways]Really enjoying the pleasure you guys are getting from the anticipation [and you know what they say about that in all walks of life said:
but thought a 'distance view' might add some perspective to all the euphoria.
I was almost the first person to put my money down it seems years ago one August[bejabers, it was years ago!]
I won't bore you with the details but one has to judge anything on results and speculation as to reasons is interesting but unproductive. The results for me were a long term shambles and I cancelled, fairly recently because I decided that Lotus cars [who you are buying from irrespective of ownership] could not, will not, and never has been able to organise a piss up in a brewery and I was suffering from this for the fourth time over 3 decades! Also I have read nothing since I cancelled to make me regret my decision as it appears from your comments to be continuing as before.
I am an ex biker and have always been into fast but flickable vehicles. I think the new Exige is an amazing looking car but apart from 'the problems' look at the facts. What top sports car doesn't have LSD? [electronic ones put the brakes on not get the power down!] ALL LOTUS RACE CARS HAVE LSD!
Lotus sells on 'flickability' but how can you flick something that feels like a tank [imho, because I don't want to get sued!] because you need weight training to turn it. Also when it supposedly doesn't matter, at speed, I tried to adjust on an 70 mph [very approx] corner and added to the cornering forces was the steering effort which certainly did not make it feel light and flickable imho but then I am not a brilliant driver so what do I know? It is however my money to decide with and I did.
I have gone from the frying pan into the fire however as I am now waiting, again. This time for a 991 GT3 but at least I know it will happen; on time; with quality guaranteed and all [in some opinions, too much] of the very latest technology.
But its double the price you say and you are right. However if you remember long ago when this car was first tested by EVO [ and received good reports] I was lucky enough to talk to some of the testers who told me that it is an excellent British sports car but GT3s are excellent world sports cars! When asked by me as to which previous GT3 roughly equated to the Exige V6 they thought possibly the 997.1 which currently sells for around £50k.
In 3 years time which car do you think would be worth more and wearing better out of these 2 £50k cars?
Maybe it doesn't matter as with my opinions so all pistonheads enjoy whatever you drive before it all goes electric or banned!
I'm pretty confused by this.I was almost the first person to put my money down it seems years ago one August[bejabers, it was years ago!]
I won't bore you with the details but one has to judge anything on results and speculation as to reasons is interesting but unproductive. The results for me were a long term shambles and I cancelled, fairly recently because I decided that Lotus cars [who you are buying from irrespective of ownership] could not, will not, and never has been able to organise a piss up in a brewery and I was suffering from this for the fourth time over 3 decades! Also I have read nothing since I cancelled to make me regret my decision as it appears from your comments to be continuing as before.
I am an ex biker and have always been into fast but flickable vehicles. I think the new Exige is an amazing looking car but apart from 'the problems' look at the facts. What top sports car doesn't have LSD? [electronic ones put the brakes on not get the power down!] ALL LOTUS RACE CARS HAVE LSD!
Lotus sells on 'flickability' but how can you flick something that feels like a tank [imho, because I don't want to get sued!] because you need weight training to turn it. Also when it supposedly doesn't matter, at speed, I tried to adjust on an 70 mph [very approx] corner and added to the cornering forces was the steering effort which certainly did not make it feel light and flickable imho but then I am not a brilliant driver so what do I know? It is however my money to decide with and I did.
I have gone from the frying pan into the fire however as I am now waiting, again. This time for a 991 GT3 but at least I know it will happen; on time; with quality guaranteed and all [in some opinions, too much] of the very latest technology.
But its double the price you say and you are right. However if you remember long ago when this car was first tested by EVO [ and received good reports] I was lucky enough to talk to some of the testers who told me that it is an excellent British sports car but GT3s are excellent world sports cars! When asked by me as to which previous GT3 roughly equated to the Exige V6 they thought possibly the 997.1 which currently sells for around £50k.
In 3 years time which car do you think would be worth more and wearing better out of these 2 £50k cars?
Maybe it doesn't matter as with my opinions so all pistonheads enjoy whatever you drive before it all goes electric or banned!
1) Lotus have had a lot of (well publicised) problems since the DRB takeover, but if you take a look over on SELOC you'll see a lot of cars being delivered, and a lot of new owners who seem very happy with quality. I'm not sure how that's consistent with being unable to organise a piss-up/brewery interface.
2) Lotus don't sell on "flickability" they sell on outstanding dynamics.
3) You tried to adjust on a 70mph corner and you couldn't? I assume this was on a test drive, because you didn't buy the car, right? How anyone thinks a short test drive is representative of the way a car really works is beyond me... but my test drive experience, for the littls it's worth, was totally different.
4) Over 3 years, I think the v6 will cost, far, far far less to run than a 911 GT3. The depreciation will be higher, sure, but one's a brand new car with a warranty, and much lower consumable costs - the other is a porsche (new wiper blades sir? That'll be £100 please).
Good luck with your 991 GT3. I'm sure it will be a lovely car (and it should be for 100k) but it's a whole other level of cost from the v6. And why would you spend 100k on that when you could by an MP4-12c for the same money?
From your contribution I note you are in error about the price of a McLaren which is more expensive than 458s etc. Also a £100 Porsche wiper [if that is correct] will actually wipe the screen which a £50 Lotus one may not and everyone says 'how cute and idiosyncratic'.
Finally as you are indulging in semantics [flickable being a biking term with an auto equivalent] I get the impression you surrender that particular point.
No I am not trying to get everyone into Porsches just looking for balance driven by frustration that Lotus could be so brilliant but, as I said, imho, fall tantalisingly short. I did want one remember!
Finally as you are indulging in semantics [flickable being a biking term with an auto equivalent] I get the impression you surrender that particular point.
No I am not trying to get everyone into Porsches just looking for balance driven by frustration that Lotus could be so brilliant but, as I said, imho, fall tantalisingly short. I did want one remember!
That's the problem with being so angry all the time, it clouds your judgement.
Enjoy the 911. Sounds like just the ideal car for you and your withered arms, you won't even need to depress any stupid clutch pedal either so your left leg can waste away too! Hopefully you won't feel the need to save any of us misguided idiots from ourselves any more.
Enjoy the 911. Sounds like just the ideal car for you and your withered arms, you won't even need to depress any stupid clutch pedal either so your left leg can waste away too! Hopefully you won't feel the need to save any of us misguided idiots from ourselves any more.
Edited by The Pits on Sunday 28th April 17:35
Edited by The Pits on Sunday 28th April 17:35
sidsideways said:
From your contribution I note you are in error about the price of a McLaren which is more expensive than 458s etc. Also a £100 Porsche wiper [if that is correct] will actually wipe the screen which a £50 Lotus one may not and everyone says 'how cute and idiosyncratic'.
Finally as you are indulging in semantics [flickable being a biking term with an auto equivalent] I get the impression you surrender that particular point.
No I am not trying to get everyone into Porsches just looking for balance driven by frustration that Lotus could be so brilliant but, as I said, imho, fall tantalisingly short. I did want one remember!
Thanks, but I'm not conceding any point. Finally as you are indulging in semantics [flickable being a biking term with an auto equivalent] I get the impression you surrender that particular point.
No I am not trying to get everyone into Porsches just looking for balance driven by frustration that Lotus could be so brilliant but, as I said, imho, fall tantalisingly short. I did want one remember!
On the mclaren I'm using your logic. If a gen1 997 gt3 is a competitor to a v6, a second hand mp4 costs the same as a new gt3 (110 - 120k - the price of a "properly optioned" car)
On the flickability point again, I get what you mean. With lotus it's all about matched control weights, predictable and balanced handling and an excellent ride/ handling compromise. That might be flickable. It might not. What you certainly can do is cause the car to behave as you want it too mid corner - which i think is what you mean, and certainly is, in my experience, what you can do with the v6.
And I've run old Porsches and lotuses. There is really no comparison on cost. And on reliability.... The lotus is better. Really. On the core drivetrain stuff (thanks to Toyota) it really, honestly is.
Again, I think the gt3 will be an excellent car and i wish you much luck with it but you're not comparing apples and apples if you compare it to a v6. It's in a completely different league on price (2x).
Had been waiting for months and months and I finally got behind the wheel of the V6 and came away underwhelmed. For me, the best part of £60K into a 997 GT3 Clubsport would get you a far superior car if you want to commit that sort of dosh. In terms of Lotus, my old 240pp gave me far greater 'bang for bucks' at 30kish and I have therefore now started the search for a 260 Cup.
The 'chuckability' mentioned earlier in the thread does matter and I've no doubt on track or at warp factor 7 the new Exige may have it, but for me it was too big, too heavy and I couldn't even heel and toe the thing - the pedal set up seemed all wrong.
TBF the one I drove had no sports exhaust and no race pack so it might have been a question of spec but I fully expected to want to sell the Mother in Law to buy one and lie awake at night imagining it on my driveway but nope, it left me ambivalent.
Coupled with the fiasco Lotus Cars have made of the deposit/delay/delivery process, some of the posts on this thread have a point!
240
The 'chuckability' mentioned earlier in the thread does matter and I've no doubt on track or at warp factor 7 the new Exige may have it, but for me it was too big, too heavy and I couldn't even heel and toe the thing - the pedal set up seemed all wrong.
TBF the one I drove had no sports exhaust and no race pack so it might have been a question of spec but I fully expected to want to sell the Mother in Law to buy one and lie awake at night imagining it on my driveway but nope, it left me ambivalent.
Coupled with the fiasco Lotus Cars have made of the deposit/delay/delivery process, some of the posts on this thread have a point!
240
I share the view that there's something special about the S2 Exige, especially in 260 Cup guise.
The V6 is a little less agile than the S2 but compared to nearly every other car on sale today it's still exceptional. Certainly in a different league to a 911 which feels much heavier, which it is. I love the 8500 limit and banshee scream of the 2ZZGE and would have preferred that the V6 would rev higher. I also think the S2 Exige is ultimately the better looking of the two.
However the V6 counters with a range of noises and refinement that the 4 cylinder cannot match. The V6 has a more complex, exotic sound with greater variety of noises through the rev range along with the considerable power and torque increase. With taller gearing it brings some extra ability over longer distances on the road to the recipe too but it's still every inch an Exige. The electronic package is also very impressive.
It is a larger car but closer in feel to a shrink-wrapped 'supercar' than a bloated Exige. I was surprised how the extra weight manifested itself as a more 'planted' feeling, I struggled to find any evidence of a downside to it on the road. I have yet to drive the V6 on track, I would be really disappointed if it didn't work well (for a road optimized car of course). Certainly, if the Evora on track is anything to go by there should be no cause for concern.
The V6 is a little less agile than the S2 but compared to nearly every other car on sale today it's still exceptional. Certainly in a different league to a 911 which feels much heavier, which it is. I love the 8500 limit and banshee scream of the 2ZZGE and would have preferred that the V6 would rev higher. I also think the S2 Exige is ultimately the better looking of the two.
However the V6 counters with a range of noises and refinement that the 4 cylinder cannot match. The V6 has a more complex, exotic sound with greater variety of noises through the rev range along with the considerable power and torque increase. With taller gearing it brings some extra ability over longer distances on the road to the recipe too but it's still every inch an Exige. The electronic package is also very impressive.
It is a larger car but closer in feel to a shrink-wrapped 'supercar' than a bloated Exige. I was surprised how the extra weight manifested itself as a more 'planted' feeling, I struggled to find any evidence of a downside to it on the road. I have yet to drive the V6 on track, I would be really disappointed if it didn't work well (for a road optimized car of course). Certainly, if the Evora on track is anything to go by there should be no cause for concern.
Me angry? Yes I guess I am a little waiting for years with still another to go but obviously not as angry as you with all the insults! At least my comments are facts with an opinion attached which being a forum I am entitled to and anyone can agree or disagree as they wish. Insults, again imo, show a distant lack of logical thought and argument and concede the discussion.
TBH I am not even a Porsche fan as I have lots of criticisms and only mentioned them because I am now in their queue. I keep an open mind about latest cars and judge them on their merits, road tests and yes, the rep of the manufacturer and Pistonhead comments. I get the feeling that some people are such Lotus fans that Lotus could produce a wheelbarrow [probably with a square wheel due to supply difficulties] and you would rush out and buy it. Regarding the windscreen wiper I missed the jibe that it would probably not be available due to supplier difficulties.
I just like open minded honesty and rational thought with a touch of emotion, not 100% emotion.
TBH I am not even a Porsche fan as I have lots of criticisms and only mentioned them because I am now in their queue. I keep an open mind about latest cars and judge them on their merits, road tests and yes, the rep of the manufacturer and Pistonhead comments. I get the feeling that some people are such Lotus fans that Lotus could produce a wheelbarrow [probably with a square wheel due to supply difficulties] and you would rush out and buy it. Regarding the windscreen wiper I missed the jibe that it would probably not be available due to supplier difficulties.
I just like open minded honesty and rational thought with a touch of emotion, not 100% emotion.
sidsideways said:
PS. I still can't find a McLaren for £120k. If I could you would definitely have a point and I could have it now!
check out http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&a... and a bunch of other threads in that forum. On the basis that a car a few months old is 150k you should be able to find an early car for your 120.
It's still all a bit rich for my blood though - not so much the cost of the car, more the cost of replacing bits after a few track days.....
and I agree, let's not get angry - why should anyone? We have different opinions and that's good, and we debate them and that's good too! It's also good to have a few facts here and there.
In terms of the LSD, I've genuinely never found them necessary in road cars. The reason that they're fitted to some race cars is because in motor racing every split second counts and traction out of slow corners is important because often they lead into long straights where tiny advantages in acceleration add up to decent lap time gains after half a mile on full throttle. In road cars, nobody cares about split seconds coming off lap times; it's driving pleasure that counts and often an LSD causes more problems than it solves. There's a PH myth that you need an LSD to drift or even to power oversteer, which is complete rubbish.
In terms of the Exige V6's heavy steering, yes it is on the heavy side at low speeds, certainly compared with the lighter of Lotus' recent cars, but I didn't find it an issue when up to speed. At any rate, the Lotus' feelsome and linear non-PAS steering is certainly better than the 997's variable ratio steering rack, something which I don't think belongs in any sports car, let along something with the intentions of the GT3.
Both capable cars, but I think it's a bit strange to criticise the Exige V6 for a lack of LSD and heavy steering, both of which are like they are for very good reasons.
In terms of the Exige V6's heavy steering, yes it is on the heavy side at low speeds, certainly compared with the lighter of Lotus' recent cars, but I didn't find it an issue when up to speed. At any rate, the Lotus' feelsome and linear non-PAS steering is certainly better than the 997's variable ratio steering rack, something which I don't think belongs in any sports car, let along something with the intentions of the GT3.
Both capable cars, but I think it's a bit strange to criticise the Exige V6 for a lack of LSD and heavy steering, both of which are like they are for very good reasons.
I get the feeling that some people are such Lotus fans that Lotus could produce a wheelbarrow [probably with a square wheel due to supply difficulties] and you would rush out and buy it.
Can't agree. Forums encourage like minded people with like minded passions. Obviously a Lotus forum will attract 'Lotus fans', the vast majority of whom have a huge interest and passion for Lotus cars. The vast majority do not delude themselves either. I find the exchanges informative, useful and interesting. As a fan I believe in the product despite its well documented 'weaknesses' and therefore make an informed decision based on information gleaned. Its not blind faith, but perhaps belief in the Lotus image and desire to be different from the 'porsche buying lobby'. However, if the wheelbarrow was light, with low running costs and different from the crowd, Id probably end up buying one, because it would set me apart from the bavarian tractor brigade.
Can't agree. Forums encourage like minded people with like minded passions. Obviously a Lotus forum will attract 'Lotus fans', the vast majority of whom have a huge interest and passion for Lotus cars. The vast majority do not delude themselves either. I find the exchanges informative, useful and interesting. As a fan I believe in the product despite its well documented 'weaknesses' and therefore make an informed decision based on information gleaned. Its not blind faith, but perhaps belief in the Lotus image and desire to be different from the 'porsche buying lobby'. However, if the wheelbarrow was light, with low running costs and different from the crowd, Id probably end up buying one, because it would set me apart from the bavarian tractor brigade.
RobM77 said:
Both capable cars, but I think it's a bit strange to criticise the Exige V6 for a lack of LSD and heavy steering, both of which are like they are for very good reasons.
I have to say I didn't think the steering weight was that bad - I expected it to be far heavier than it was when I first drove one and I'm built like a stereotypical nerd and sit too far back to be able to muscle a car round with my shoulders.It's heavier than my S1 sure, but it's still fine for me. When the PAS failed on my Subaru THAT was heavy steering.
Likewise I'm not a good enough driver to be limited by the lack of an LSD when I've driven it on road or track. On track in Race Mode it did get out the corners incredibly well though.
Thanks Rob for focusing on my points and the difference between us I think is road and track.
I think all the brilliant cars we like are a waste of time on the road so for the track I think an LSD is important but agree it is irrelevant at road speeds. When cornering at the limit of adhesion in any car the cornering forces cause strong forces on the steering wheel and when small adjustments are added to that large force because of wheel slip the heavy steering I did find noticeable and made the delicate corrections needed much more difficult.
I am really annoyed IN A NICE WAY about the McLaren suggestion as I got all excited so if anyone will sell me one for £100k as originally suggested when can I pick it up please? Otherwise I need an extra £50k for a decent spec! Thanks mate! Wound me up good and proper but good dream.
I think all the brilliant cars we like are a waste of time on the road so for the track I think an LSD is important but agree it is irrelevant at road speeds. When cornering at the limit of adhesion in any car the cornering forces cause strong forces on the steering wheel and when small adjustments are added to that large force because of wheel slip the heavy steering I did find noticeable and made the delicate corrections needed much more difficult.
I am really annoyed IN A NICE WAY about the McLaren suggestion as I got all excited so if anyone will sell me one for £100k as originally suggested when can I pick it up please? Otherwise I need an extra £50k for a decent spec! Thanks mate! Wound me up good and proper but good dream.
Just to clarify, the road and track comparison isn't your usual Pistonheads 'nothing performance related is worth worrying about until you're on track', because I can't stand that stance some people take. I'm aware that we can all use full acceleration on the road, even briefly if we're being legal, some of us corner pretty quickly if it's safe to do so (which it often is in some parts of the UK if you're comfortable with car handling), and to be honest it's generally up to us how we drive our cars, and certainly not for me or anyone else to suggest otherwise. However, the main difference between road and track which unites as all is that the track, or more specifically motor racing, is about speed and lap times; and on the other hand the road or non competitive track days are about feeling, sensation, enjoyment, driveability etc. For those four reasons, plus others, Lotus choose not to fit LSDs on their road cars. In fact there are quite a number of chassis parameters that Lotus tune on a car like the Exige V6 to be specifically not about lap times and more about enjoyment.
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