S2 TT Supercharger alternatives?
Discussion
May I suggest that for Elise owners happy with both their car and the power it provides that they visit BBS (sorry Ted) - no yawning comparisons with Vectra's there you can be assured!
www.british-cars.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=lotusbbs
>> Edited by oneelevens on Friday 12th July 10:47
www.british-cars.co.uk/cgi-bin/gen5?runprog=lotusbbs
>> Edited by oneelevens on Friday 12th July 10:47
Well it's not good to see you can't take criticism very well can you? I'm hardly dismissing the car but rather pointing the finger at the Lotus management and asking what the hell are they doing.
Lotus gets far too easy a deal from it's customer base and that is what they have been relying on. No other car manufacturer in the world would get as much sympathy or slack as they do.
The Elise was born from them having to create a product that would sell well. They took their heads out of the sand and for once looked at what the market was lacking. Companies will always come up with the best ideas when their survival depends on it.
The Elise drew in brand new fans of the Lotus marque and made a real point of showing what Colin Chapmans philosophy could achieve.
Now look at what Lotus are doing, they are creating cars simply to appeal to their existing customer base. How on earth are they supposed to be getting new customers with an attitude like that? Like with the new Sport 135 "We wanted to put more power in it to provide an option for those existing customers who wanted to buy a faster S2" Eh??
Sorry Lotus you should be making cars that lots of people want to buy or at least lust after and dream of owning. But it's sad to say you haven't got a car that does that yet.
Lotus gets far too easy a deal from it's customer base and that is what they have been relying on. No other car manufacturer in the world would get as much sympathy or slack as they do.
The Elise was born from them having to create a product that would sell well. They took their heads out of the sand and for once looked at what the market was lacking. Companies will always come up with the best ideas when their survival depends on it.
The Elise drew in brand new fans of the Lotus marque and made a real point of showing what Colin Chapmans philosophy could achieve.
Now look at what Lotus are doing, they are creating cars simply to appeal to their existing customer base. How on earth are they supposed to be getting new customers with an attitude like that? Like with the new Sport 135 "We wanted to put more power in it to provide an option for those existing customers who wanted to buy a faster S2" Eh??
Sorry Lotus you should be making cars that lots of people want to buy or at least lust after and dream of owning. But it's sad to say you haven't got a car that does that yet.
Another reason to visit BBS is that there is currently a discussion of the new lotus retro fit 190bhp upgrade for S2s - but not the sport 190, it's a new one apparently. Cost is tbc, wild speculation ranges from 3K to a more realistic 7K.
Cheers
Julian
>> Edited by n209385 on Friday 12th July 12:39
Cheers
Julian
>> Edited by n209385 on Friday 12th July 12:39
well said Adee. (for both posts) Oh and 111s
quote:
as the Elise is all about handling ..... then I think you may be missing the point
I think you are, I drove M100 Elan you know "fastest car from A to B" ie best handling car out there at the time. Lotus have improved their handling but at a cost. The Elan 0-60 6.8 (not blistering fast now) Top speed 137 (still faster than Elise) BUT most importantly the Elan has comfy seats, electric windows, bootspace, a roof that you can put up in a matter of seconds. In other words a very practical sports car but if anyone asked me what was wrong with the Elan I would say it was underpowered.
The difference between the Elan and Elise/Exige isn't that great both in handling terms and the performance. If I actually point this out, saying that the car was a disappointment in comparison to a car thats 12 years old, suddenly I'm some kind of bad guy.
Seems if we point out that on track the Elise is going to get beaten by vectras, hot hatches etc, which isn't very good for a "road legal race car" that costs £30k Then you get into a huff. It also strikes me a little two faced in that you feel free to critisize the new MINI cooper as cr@p (which I agree with BTW) but if anyone critisizes your car then clearly they know nothing.
What this forum has been discussing is how Lotus will be able to improve for the future. They made the right move with the Elise but seem to be going backwards.
>> Edited by smeagol on Friday 12th July 13:04
quote:
What this forum has been discussing is how Lotus will be able to improve for the future. They made the right move with the Elise but seem to be going backwards.
Exactly, and why do you think Smeagol and myself are arguing so passionately about this company? It's because we are both Lotus devotees and want the best for them. Some of you guys seem to think we are just starting an argument which we clearly aren't.
Business is a hard game to play and if you get it wrong you end up flat on your face fast. Which is the last thing I want to happen to Lotus.
I want to see Lotus develop a car that I will drool over... I want it as a desktop background on my PC, I want to dream about sitting behind the wheel and then perhaps about owning one.
That's exactly what it was like for me when the original Elise was launched and that's why I feel so passionate about them still.
There's only one market oppotunity left for Lotus and that's in the Porsche Boxster/Audi TT class. Which is exactly where the M250 was destined to be placed.
But now the Elise is be directed towards this market and it just isn't the right car for the job. Not enough room, too noisy and not enough power.
>> Edited by adeewuff on Friday 12th July 13:50
Without wishing to be seen to be taking sides
I think there are some misconceptions here.
1st - Although I have the 111s version so a bit more power - I have not been overtaken by vectra/hot hatch combinations track day or straight line. so i don't see the relevence of that. Lets face it a well driven elise will see off pretty much any car on a track
caterfields and other dedictaed exotica not withstanding
2nd The elise is not about power - its a lightweight sports car ffs - top speed 135 is entirely acceptable as the cars real strength is its handling on smooth a & b roads.
3. discussion of whch engine variant to put in next is just silly - it would ruin the character of the car. Yes they could make the power outut at least the same as the MGF series of cars I agree - but talk of a V8 in a liz is just arrant nonsense.
4. I like the brand too and wish they would launch the m250 project again - I am worried about the yank strategy and I think they choose a main stream route with the s2 that they could have avoided if they had a wider/newer product range in other market segments - but with only one real car now they just couldn't gamble again
just my thoughts - keep it little and lightweight - if you have a problem being seen in a 'little' car - get out of the marque ?
I think there are some misconceptions here.
1st - Although I have the 111s version so a bit more power - I have not been overtaken by vectra/hot hatch combinations track day or straight line. so i don't see the relevence of that. Lets face it a well driven elise will see off pretty much any car on a track
caterfields and other dedictaed exotica not withstanding
2nd The elise is not about power - its a lightweight sports car ffs - top speed 135 is entirely acceptable as the cars real strength is its handling on smooth a & b roads.
3. discussion of whch engine variant to put in next is just silly - it would ruin the character of the car. Yes they could make the power outut at least the same as the MGF series of cars I agree - but talk of a V8 in a liz is just arrant nonsense.
4. I like the brand too and wish they would launch the m250 project again - I am worried about the yank strategy and I think they choose a main stream route with the s2 that they could have avoided if they had a wider/newer product range in other market segments - but with only one real car now they just couldn't gamble again
just my thoughts - keep it little and lightweight - if you have a problem being seen in a 'little' car - get out of the marque ?
quote:
1st - Although I have the 111s version so a bit more power - I have not been overtaken by vectra/hot hatch combinations track day or straight line. so i don't see the relevence of that.
If you go on a fast circuit you will be murdered in a straight line. That's not a boast or an outrageous claim it's fact. Ignore the 0-60 times, no relevance on a circuit at all, what comes into play are the 80-120mph times which is where you need the power.
quote:
Lets face it a well driven elise will see off pretty much any car on a track caterfields and other dedictaed exotica not withstanding.
Caterfields.. I love it!
quote:
3. discussion of whch engine variant to put in next is just silly - it would ruin the character of the car.
If you think the character of the car is it being slow once you get out of second gear then yes - I suppose it would ruin it!
I cannot add anything to Gargamel's last post so I won't try. One correction I would like to make though is that after I test drove the Mini Cooper S, I think you will find that I wrote that "I was on the wrong side of disappointed". I also made the point out of courtesy to check the PH register to see if anyone actually owned a Cooper S before submitting my post, the result being that as of then nobody actually had registered that they did. Also, believe me that it would take a lot more than a comparison with Vectra to put me in a huff!
quote:
Without wishing to be seen to be taking sides
I think there are some misconceptions here.
1st - Although I have the 111s version so a bit more power - I have not been overtaken by vectra/hot hatch combinations track day or straight line. so i don't see the relevence of that. Lets face it a well driven elise will see off pretty much any car on a track
caterfields and other dedictaed exotica not withstanding
You'll also pass the S2 which is more expensive and heavier. Surely thats the wrong way for a business to go?
quote:
2nd The elise is not about power - its a lightweight sports car ffs - top speed 135 is entirely acceptable as the cars real strength is its handling on smooth a & b roads.
Quite agree but the lightweight bit is wearing thin. It should be competing against other lightweight cars. They should be thinking Caterham, they're thinking porsche which isn't a lightweight sports car. As Adee has said £26-30k is a lot of money for the lightweight sports car esp. when compared to Caterhams, Westfields and the like. Don't forget when the S1 came out most people were comparing it to the Caterham.
quote:
3. discussion of whch engine variant to put in next is just silly - it would ruin the character of the car. Yes they could make the power outut at least the same as the MGF series of cars I agree - but talk of a V8 in a liz is just arrant nonsense.
Why is it when Lotus themselves have done it? The character of the car IS being ruining IMHO. Its getting heavier and more expensive. The car which was not that practical but fun to drive, was always critised for being underpowered look how many adverts there are for performance upgrades. You yourself bought a 111s because it had more power so what have they done? Released the S2 with 118bhp FFS
then they release the 111S2 for £30k! Trying to sell it to reps. The Esprit is looking old, they need another supercar as Adee says to drool over, why not a very powerful GT1esk Elise? I saw one at the Lotus show, I'd love one.
quote:
4. I like the brand too and wish they would launch the m250 project again - I am worried about the yank strategy and I think they choose a main stream route with the s2 that they could have avoided if they had a wider/newer product range in other market segments - but with only one real car now they just couldn't gamble again
Quite agree
the USA is a BIG gamble IMHO. quote:
just my thoughts - keep it little and lightweight - if you have a problem being seen in a 'little' car - get out of the marque ?
So you're saying that loyal Lotus fans should get out of the marque. That seems the ideal recepe for going bust. All other manufacturers want brand loyalty. Lotus desperately need brand loyalty especially taking into account that their build quality isn't always perfect. Unfortunatly I can see an awful lot of x-elise owner in 5 Years time getting out of the marque.
quote:
I cannot add anything to Gargamel's last post so I won't try. One correction I would like to make though is that after I test drove the Mini Cooper S, I think you will find that I wrote that "I was on the wrong side of disappointed".
But you then later went on to describe all the bits you didn't like with a bash head against a wall icon. I thought I would just summerise by saying your thought the car was cr@p.
quote:
I also made the point out of courtesy to check the PH register to see if anyone actually owned a Cooper S before submitting my post, the result being that as of then nobody actually had registered that they did.
So what, this is a public forum, people can say what they like. You are free to critisise cars as am I. As it turns out a member did have a MINI cooper s. I didn't see a retraction or the message deleted. Nor do I believe you should, everybodies entitled to their opinion.
I'm glad that you make that curtesy, I don't. In my opinion if I can't tell someone what I think then I shouldn't have the opinion at all. Certainly when I was a teacher if I didn't agree with the Principal, or my Head of Department I told them, with reasons.
Just to add lots of people on this forum have critised what I have said and critsised my car with sometimes IMHO very good reasons. Thats what discussion forums are about.
>> Edited by smeagol on Friday 12th July 14:51
Smeagol
Ok so I was asking for a flaming with the last get out of the marque comment - which is exactly what I am about to do - (although for baby/money reasons more than any disastifaction)
Yes I agree the S2 wasn't the big step forward I was looking for - hence I haven't upgraded to one, its a better car in many ways - build, stability etc - but I prefer the rawer feel of the s1. Although many laydees I have spoken to love the s2.
btw - I have been on fast straights circuits and still haven't had this problem with more powerful cars, if your out of the corner quicker, you accelerate quicker and you can brake quicker then whats the problem ?I don't care if they can goe 5 - 15 mph quicker ultimately - I will still blow them into the weeds in the real world. The only thing thats just driven by like I wasn't there was well driven porsche 911 turbo
at about 110 ish on a straight.
Ok so I was asking for a flaming with the last get out of the marque comment - which is exactly what I am about to do - (although for baby/money reasons more than any disastifaction)
Yes I agree the S2 wasn't the big step forward I was looking for - hence I haven't upgraded to one, its a better car in many ways - build, stability etc - but I prefer the rawer feel of the s1. Although many laydees I have spoken to love the s2.
btw - I have been on fast straights circuits and still haven't had this problem with more powerful cars, if your out of the corner quicker, you accelerate quicker and you can brake quicker then whats the problem ?I don't care if they can goe 5 - 15 mph quicker ultimately - I will still blow them into the weeds in the real world. The only thing thats just driven by like I wasn't there was well driven porsche 911 turbo
at about 110 ish on a straight.
quote:
Ok so I was asking for a flaming with the last get out of the marque comment - which is exactly what I am about to do - (although for baby/money reasons more than any disastifaction)
Same here mate (got out for money, starting own business), BTW its painful for about a month, then its a dull throbbing, and then only when its a nice day. I went for old style Mini Cooper, fun to drive and cheap to run so the pain wasn't so bad. Biggest pain in the @rse are people saying "do you miss the lotus?", - no I hated the car thats why I always drove around with a silly grin on my face FFS
quote:
Yes I agree the S2 wasn't the big step forward I was looking for - hence I haven't upgraded to one, its a better car in many ways - build, stability etc - but I prefer the rawer feel of the s1. Although many laydees I have spoken to love the s2.
I agree the S1 felt like what it was ie basic, fast and fun.
quote:
btw - I have been on fast straights circuits and still haven't had this problem with more powerful cars, if your out of the corner quicker, you accelerate quicker and you can brake quicker then whats the problem .....
Thats probably down to you being a good driver, track days often have people saying "wow I beat a ferarri" or "the ultimas not that fast" when in fact the other chap (or chapess) is taking it easy as they've had the car a week and brought it to the track to get a feel for it.
The problem with the S2 will be when a decent driver gets into a hot-hatch and simply blows it away.
>> Edited by smeagol on Friday 12th July 15:52
Well after all that, I just got off the phone from Rob at TT and the S2 is booked in on the 2nd of September - with cat bypass, sports exhaust and 4:1 exige style manifold. The ECU shall be altered to prevent the fuel cut-off on overrun.
Shall let you know how things go if I don't kill myself first.
Cheers
Julian
Shall let you know how things go if I don't kill myself first.
Cheers
Julian
As the very wise Bombjack has already done, I too am now going to bow out of this healthy debate. Suffice to say that we all love Lotus, and that most current Elise owners are happy with their cars, whilst others believe that more power is required. It's lucky that we all live in land where we have the opportunity to vote with our feet and chequebooks. Have a great weekend everybody!
Gassing Station | Elise/Exige/Europa/340R | Top of Page | What's New | My Stuff