111R - loss of power on high lift cam
Discussion
It's had an intermittent fault recently, whereby it changes onto the high lift cam but won't rev. It seemed to have stopped doing it, but I've just had it reflashed to lower the cam change point and it's doing it again. Fault is not in any way related to the reflash, I don't think. It will now rev all the way out to the shift light, but there's no power.
(Obviously the oil level is correct and the engine is warmed - and it is engaging the high lift cam, you can hear it, it just isn't making any power when it does)
This is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISZrgxqvFCo
Anyone seen this before?
(Obviously the oil level is correct and the engine is warmed - and it is engaging the high lift cam, you can hear it, it just isn't making any power when it does)
This is it:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ISZrgxqvFCo
Anyone seen this before?
Saw this in the Jap Chat section.
I've got one of these engines (2ZZ-GE) in my Celica T-Sport. I'm certainly not an expert but I've owned my car for 6+ years and I did quite a bit of reading up on the weak points of the engine. Although it's the same engine code, I don't know if Toyota / Lotus made any revisions to the engine.
1. Is the engine getting warm, is your oil pressure OK and are your oil levels correct?
When revving my engine hard from cold, the ECU simply won't shift over to the second cam until it's reached the 2nd segment of the temparature gauage and the oil has time to warm through.
2. It could also be that the 'lift' bolts, or one of them, has or is about to snap. I can rev up to just over 7000 rpm on the first cam alone when cold, but when warm - the change over normally happens at 6200 rpm and I can then rev to 8250 rpm on the second cam.
As I understand it, a snapped lift bolt would allow the second cam to rotate and then stop the oil pressure allowing the 2nd cam to engage. If the bolt has broken when you remove it, you 'might' be able to use an EZ-Out to extract the broken part. If the cam has rotated, you won't be able to extract the broken part. Part of the head will need to be removed so you can tap out the cam to extract the broken part.
See here for a ton of pictures showing what I mean and how it can be fixed. There are quite a few other guides out there.
This is the official technical bulletin from Toyota in the US and the description matches against what you're experiancing:
Replacement bolts are about £1 each (at least, from Toyota).
I hope this is all relevant, otherwise apologies if I'm sending you on a wild goose chase.
I've got one of these engines (2ZZ-GE) in my Celica T-Sport. I'm certainly not an expert but I've owned my car for 6+ years and I did quite a bit of reading up on the weak points of the engine. Although it's the same engine code, I don't know if Toyota / Lotus made any revisions to the engine.
1. Is the engine getting warm, is your oil pressure OK and are your oil levels correct?
When revving my engine hard from cold, the ECU simply won't shift over to the second cam until it's reached the 2nd segment of the temparature gauage and the oil has time to warm through.
2. It could also be that the 'lift' bolts, or one of them, has or is about to snap. I can rev up to just over 7000 rpm on the first cam alone when cold, but when warm - the change over normally happens at 6200 rpm and I can then rev to 8250 rpm on the second cam.
As I understand it, a snapped lift bolt would allow the second cam to rotate and then stop the oil pressure allowing the 2nd cam to engage. If the bolt has broken when you remove it, you 'might' be able to use an EZ-Out to extract the broken part. If the cam has rotated, you won't be able to extract the broken part. Part of the head will need to be removed so you can tap out the cam to extract the broken part.
See here for a ton of pictures showing what I mean and how it can be fixed. There are quite a few other guides out there.
This is the official technical bulletin from Toyota in the US and the description matches against what you're experiancing:
Replacement bolts are about £1 each (at least, from Toyota).
I hope this is all relevant, otherwise apologies if I'm sending you on a wild goose chase.
- Edited to adjust the web-links formatting
Edited by Bearings on Saturday 24th November 20:07
Thanks Bearings - no, definitely not the cold limiter, engine fully warmed through, oil level fine. I don't think it is a fault with the mechanism, I believe the cam is engaging - there is a very obvious change in sound when it happens. It has also been intermittent, which suggests to me that it isn't anything worn or broken. I hope so anyway.
I did wonder if it was something like the catalyst breaking up, but I'm starting to think a sensor on the fritz is a more likely problem. Going to get it plugged into the diagnostics next week to see if any fault codes are being logged.
I did wonder if it was something like the catalyst breaking up, but I'm starting to think a sensor on the fritz is a more likely problem. Going to get it plugged into the diagnostics next week to see if any fault codes are being logged.
Just to illustrate what it's doing - this is from Dynolicious, just pulling away in 2nd gear and accelerating to max revs in one gear. (Ignore the absolute numbers, they're based on what you enter for weight and transmission losses). Yellow line is power.
From when it wasn't playing up:
This is what it is doing now:
Can you see the problem?
(at least the lowered cam change is working though!)
From when it wasn't playing up:
This is what it is doing now:
Can you see the problem?
(at least the lowered cam change is working though!)
No, clutch is fully engaged, just no power and revs rising very slowly.
I've just taken it for a little drive, and I think it's now down on power everywhere. Didn't try taking it onto the second cam.
Someone has suggested coil pack failure as a possibility - could that be intermittent at first then gradually worsening, I wonder?
I've just taken it for a little drive, and I think it's now down on power everywhere. Didn't try taking it onto the second cam.
Someone has suggested coil pack failure as a possibility - could that be intermittent at first then gradually worsening, I wonder?
I had this on my 111r - water was getting in as I had a modified coil pack cover and the screws fixing the plastic grilles on the engine cover were letting water through into the engine compartment. I fixed the water ingress, dried the coil pack wells with a hair dryer then applied dielectric grease to the coil pack tubes - sorted and never a problem again, happy days 
Misfire - but he's cleared it and it hasn't come back. The guys who did the reflash (Essex Autosport, used to be Sinclaires) did say that it could throw a CEL at first, but it didn't do so before today.
It's just frustrating not being able to rule out the reflash - I don't think it's the cause, because of the history of intermittent problems, but it's impossible to tell. Simon is going to see if he can find someone willing to try an ECU swap to see what happens. He's ruled out plugs, problems with sensors, fuses, catalyst seems OK.
Basically, if you keep the throttle pinned, it feels like a massive flat spot from about 6000rpm to a bit over 7000rpm, when it starts to pull again. That's with the cam change at about 5700rpm.
It's just frustrating not being able to rule out the reflash - I don't think it's the cause, because of the history of intermittent problems, but it's impossible to tell. Simon is going to see if he can find someone willing to try an ECU swap to see what happens. He's ruled out plugs, problems with sensors, fuses, catalyst seems OK.
Basically, if you keep the throttle pinned, it feels like a massive flat spot from about 6000rpm to a bit over 7000rpm, when it starts to pull again. That's with the cam change at about 5700rpm.
Still not fixed. I've had some suggestions from the Celica owners club - broken lift bolt is a possibility, but it would seem to be rare on Celicas post-'02 and pretty much unheard of on Elises (unheard of by Lotus, anyway). Other suggestions are blocked filter on the oil control valve (part of the hydraulic mechanism for engaging lift) or an issue with the vvti pulley.
I'm trying to get in contact with a 2ZZGE specialist they have recommended.
I'm trying to get in contact with a 2ZZGE specialist they have recommended.
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